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Old 13th April 2018, 10:56 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Qualia are the HPC, folk need to find a way of demonstrating they exist independently of the electrochemical and information processing we know the brain and human body does before anyone needs to provide an explanation for them.
Qualia is just a fancy way of saying pain hurts, it's not just a warning system. There's a subjective quality to it that can't be ignored.
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Old 13th April 2018, 10:58 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
By the way forgot to ask - what is "atheist" about not thinking the HPC exists? How is it tied into any form of atheism? Really not seeing the connection.
I don't see it as particularly atheist, although all the people I know claiming there's no "hard problem" are atheists. Do you know any theists who claim that?

ETA: I see RecoveringYuppy gave a good response.

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Old 13th April 2018, 12:04 PM   #163
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While we're at it, lets talk about the hard problem of magic tricks and how the fact that they're so hard to decipher automatically means that "therefore: MAGIC"
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:12 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
While we're at it, lets talk about the hard problem of magic tricks and how the fact that they're so hard to decipher automatically means that "therefore: MAGIC"
Are you saying consciousness is like a magic trick? A magic trick, by definition, has an explanation behind the trick, even if it's only known to the magician (otherwise, it would be magic). What explanation is there for how consciousness arises from matter?
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:28 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
There would be you and a clone/twin/copy/duplicate.
Which one is where?

You - the singular instance of you which has a single first person perspective - will be one place or the other.
In our current lives there is me now and an hour later there will be a slightly different person who thinks of himself as being the same person that was there an hour before.

In the copy situation the is me now and an hour later there will two slightly different people who will each think of himself as being the same person that was there an hour before.

One will be composed of mostly the original atoms and the other won't be, but I don't see that as having any effect one way or the other on their consciousness.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The one in the hi-tech scan & copy room would have a pretty strong case!
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which one of you bought the car?
I don't know how the law would end of deciding the case of property ownership. To me the closest situation in existing law is divorce.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No, at no point in time did either of you share the same physical space so it is always possible to work out which one has a "real" history and which one just thinks it had.
Even if the law says that the one with the most atoms in common with the original person gets all of the property how will you prove which is which?

Tests of memory or physical make-up will come out the same for both. The two instances may not be sure themselves.

You would need to introduce a physical difference between them right after the copy process when you are sure which is which.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:33 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Are you saying consciousness is like a magic trick?
Yes

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
A magic trick, by definition, has an explanation behind the trick, even if it's only known to the magician (otherwise, it would be magic). What explanation is there for how consciousness arises from matter?
Consciousness is the result of brain activity. That's how consciousness arises from matter. There is nothing but evidence that consciousness cannot happen without a brain, and more specifically, brain activity.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:34 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Are you saying consciousness is like a magic trick? A magic trick, by definition, has an explanation behind the trick, even if it's only known to the magician (otherwise, it would be magic). What explanation is there for how consciousness arises from matter?
And where it arises in matter. Do ants have it at all? Frogs?
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:35 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Consciousness is the result of brain activity. That's how consciousness arises from matter. There is nothing but evidence that consciousness cannot happen without a brain, and more specifically, brain activity.
Do you disbelieve in the possibility of strong AI?
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:38 PM   #169
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What's wrong with "both" as the answer to property ownership question?
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:41 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Consciousness is the result of brain activity. That's how consciousness arises from matter. There is nothing but evidence that consciousness cannot happen without a brain, and more specifically, brain activity.
So you're suggesting a "life force" of some kind?
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:41 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
In our current lives there is me now and an hour later there will be a slightly different person who thinks of himself as being the same person that was there an hour before.

In the copy situation the is me now and an hour later there will two slightly different people who will each think of himself as being the same person that was there an hour before.

One will be composed of mostly the original atoms and the other won't be, but I don't see that as having any effect one way or the other on their consciousness.
When you're talking about doubling the first person perspective in spacetime, the you that exists right now can't be in both places at once.

Your copy and you will experience different things as a result of your different positions in space. One position will inform "you" and effect your cognition, and the other will have it's own, different thing going on.
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:55 PM   #172
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How come all these discussions tend to end up on bickering about the effects of copying people? It doesn't matter, it doesn't even prove anything, and we can't do it in any foreseeable future.

Hans
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:00 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
How come all these discussions tend to end up on bickering about the effects of copying people? It doesn't matter, it doesn't even prove anything, and we can't do it in any foreseeable future.

Hans
I think it's a rare case of a useful thought experiment when it comes to understanding the nature of existence.

But YMMV.
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:29 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Because our consciousness is the core of our existence.

Do you have any opinions about the likelihood of strong AI being possible, or distinguishing strong AI from weak AI?
I happen to feel it is just part of our existence, that still doesn't mean it deserves some 'different' designation that makes it different from all other realms of study.
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:32 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
What makes the problem of consciousness 'hard' is that we haven't made any progress in explaining it in the last thousand years or so. Maybe our hunch it's the brain is stronger - but the question how matter becomes consciousness is no further along.
I take it you think neuroscience and its study just doesn't matter, okay.

I don't think the progress made since 1980 is comparable to the conjectures 1000 years ago.
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:34 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I just did delineate the difference. Subjective thought. What subjective experiences/thoughts do earthquakes and livers have?
That seems to be special pleading, how is subjective experience different from the layers of rock, soils, etc... that can't be observed but effect the study of earthquakes?

Saying subjective seems to be special pleading to me.
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:35 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Qualia is just a fancy way of saying pain hurts, it's not just a warning system. There's a subjective quality to it that can't be ignored.
And realistically qualia is another word for perception.
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:38 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
When you're talking about doubling the first person perspective in spacetime, the you that exists right now can't be in both places at once.
The me that exists right now will not exist in an hour.

An hour from now I will be a similar person that has a lot in common with the current me, but not the same.

A copy of me would have just a much in common with now me.
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:39 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you disbelieve in the possibility of strong AI?
Personally, I believe strong AI is very possible. Why?
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:45 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Personally, I believe strong AI is very possible. Why?
So you believe that machines can be as intelligent as humans but can't be conscious? Why not?
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:02 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Personally, I believe strong AI is very possible. Why?
You said "there is nothing but evidence that consciousness cannot happen without a brain"...so...

At what point and by what mechanism does a well programmed Siri become conscious?

Do you think AIs can have this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_consciousness
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:11 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
The me that exists right now will not exist in an hour.

An hour from now I will be a similar person that has a lot in common with the current me, but not the same.

A copy of me would have just a much in common with now me.
It's not a matter of commonality, but rather continuity of positioning within space and time as an entity of a mind.
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:13 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
The me that exists right now will not exist in an hour.

An hour from now I will be a similar person that has a lot in common with the current me, but not the same.

A copy of me would have just a much in common with now me.
Another way of looking at it:

Suppose I scan you, wait a month, and stab you to death, then push the button to create a copy of you from a month ago and recreate that past you.

Am I guilty of murder?
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:13 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
It's commonly claimed by atheists and skeptics that "consciousness is well understood" or the like to quash theist claims about the soul. It's a vast overstatement of the facts. Pointless one too, IMO, since there isn't any evidence in favor of souls anyway.
That some people who are also atheists state consciousness is well understood does not make it part of being an atheist, or make it an atheist thing.
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:15 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
What makes the problem of consciousness 'hard' is that we haven't made any progress in explaining it in the last thousand years or so. Maybe our hunch it's the brain is stronger - but the question how matter becomes consciousness is no further along.
That is not the HPC, that is a very well defined "problem".
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:17 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Qualia is just a fancy way of saying pain hurts, it's not just a warning system. There's a subjective quality to it that can't be ignored.
Is this the same as the qualia of experiencing redness?
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:17 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That some people who are also atheists state consciousness is well understood does not make it part of being an atheist, or make it an atheist thing.
I do think it's an atheist-specific sort or error in reasoning, tho. He/she's almost got a point.

It's a particular kind of strong conviction in an oversimplification so extreme it's almost a mythology.
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:19 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
In our current lives there is me now and an hour later there will be a slightly different person who thinks of himself as being the same person that was there an hour before.

In the copy situation the is me now and an hour later there will two slightly different people who will each think of himself as being the same person that was there an hour before.

One will be composed of mostly the original atoms and the other won't be, but I don't see that as having any effect one way or the other on their consciousness.





I don't know how the law would end of deciding the case of property ownership. To me the closest situation in existing law is divorce.



Even if the law says that the one with the most atoms in common with the original person gets all of the property how will you prove which is which?

Tests of memory or physical make-up will come out the same for both. The two instances may not be sure themselves.

You would need to introduce a physical difference between them right after the copy process when you are sure which is which.
By retracing the steps, DaratB only goes back to the duplicator pod despite the fact he can remember buying the car, DaratA can be traced back to the car dealership *independently* of his memory of doing so.
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:22 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
What's wrong with "both" as the answer to property ownership question?
Sounds rather like communism to me. Why should DaratB get a share of my car when he's never made one single payment for it and its me that has done all the maintenance, taxed it, seen it got through the MOT?
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:22 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That is not the HPC, that is a very well defined "problem".
No, I think they're fundamentally inter-related.

HPC is "the problem of explaining the relationship between physical phenomena, such as brain processes, and experience" and Larry said "how matter becomes consciousness".

Two ways of briefly saying the same or a very similar thing.
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:24 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
By retracing the steps, DaratB only goes back to the duplicator pod despite the fact he can remember buying the car, DaratA can be traced back to the car dealership *independently* of his memory of doing so.
Right...from a third person POV.

The memories of the two entities are irrelevant there.
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:25 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
The me that exists right now will not exist in an hour.

An hour from now I will be a similar person that has a lot in common with the current me, but not the same.

A copy of me would have just a much in common with now me.
And no one is arguing it wouldn't.
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:28 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
Even if the law says that the one with the most atoms in common with the original person gets all of the property how will you prove which is which?
Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
You would need to introduce a physical difference between them right after the copy process when you are sure which is which.
For purposes of being relevant to this conversation wouldn't it be more useful to assume duplication process produces duplicates? They are either made out of wholly new atoms or share the original atoms equally?
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:35 PM   #194
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I think this whole thing is a functional difference in people who just... have to see "self" a distinct, separate thing and not a process.

To me, "I" am not a thing. I'm a process. A constantly changing, mostly with a continuity, process. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you light a match and use it to light another match you don't have a crisis of faith over which one is the "real" fire.

If you make a copy of a CD you don't have an existential crisis over whether or not the second CD is only "pretending" to play the music.

And since that's how I conceptualize "me" I don't have anywhere to go with all this "Would another me be me" handwringing.

In this case the process is the thing.

If this second "me" whether some super-advanced computer running a perfect 1:1 simulation of my brain or some wizard who zaps me with his magic wand and splits me perfectly into two identical beings... assuming the new me acted like I did, responded as I would, etc I don't get where the logic is in me assuming some special title or property of "the real me."
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:52 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think this whole thing is a functional difference in people who just... have to see "self" a distinct, separate thing and not a process.

To me, "I" am not a thing. I'm a process. A constantly changing, mostly with a continuity, process. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you light a match and use it to light another match you don't have a crisis of faith over which one is the "real" fire.

If you make a copy of a CD you don't have an existential crisis over whether or not the second CD is only "pretending" to play the music.

And since that's how I conceptualize "me" I don't have anywhere to go with all this "Would another me be me" handwringing.

In this case the process is the thing.

If this second "me" whether some super-advanced computer running a perfect 1:1 simulation of my brain or some wizard who zaps me with his magic wand and splits me perfectly into two identical beings... assuming the new me acted like I did, responded as I would, etc I don't get where the logic is in me assuming some special title or property of "the real me."
I think our consciousness is just a process, too. Or the result of a series of processes, to be more specific.

Going with your analogies:
"If you light a match and use it to light another match you don't have a crisis of faith over which one is the "real" fire."
- If the first match had a perspective, and you broke it and stomped on it, etc, the fact that the match had lit another match would be irrelevant to the state of the now extinguished match.

"some wizard who zaps me with his magic wand and splits me perfectly into two identical beings"
- If the duplication was an actual split, sure. But something being replicated like we're talking about isn't one thing being split in half and reconstituting what's missing in the new two.

"some super-advanced computer running a perfect 1:1 simulation of my brain"
- Suppose there was a computer running a simulation of you right now. Would to have any impact on the you that's replying to this thread?
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:56 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Going with your analogies:
"If you light a match and use it to light another match you don't have a crisis of faith over which one is the "real" fire."
- If the first match had a perspective, and you broke it and stomped on it, etc, the fact that the match had lit another match would be irrelevant to the state of the now extinguished match.
My "process" is going to end sooner or later. That doesn't change if there's another (or a dozen, or a thousand) identical process out there.

Quote:
"some super-advanced computer running a perfect 1:1 simulation of my brain"
- Suppose there was a computer running a simulation of you right now. Would to have any impact on the you that's replying to this thread?
Are we talking if I was the simulation or if I was aware there's a simulation of me out there?
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:10 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
My "process" is going to end sooner or later. That doesn't change if there's another (or a dozen, or a thousand) identical process out there.
Yes, and we're almost on the same page now. I'm only adding in that your process isn't extended by having an identical one running out there, be it in a computer or a clone or whatever.


Quote:
Are we talking if I was the simulation or if I was aware there's a simulation of me out there?
If you're NOT the simulation, and I'm not seeing if it matters if you're aware or unaware.
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:32 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yes, and we're almost on the same page now. I'm only adding in that your process isn't extended by having an identical one running out there, be it in a computer or a clone or whatever.
But that's a question of continuity, not of some innate specialiness one would have that the other wouldn't.

Quote:
If you're NOT the simulation, and I'm not seeing if it matters if you're aware or unaware.
I'm saying that (all things being equal) a computer running my mental process wouldn't be a "simulation" of me anymore than my mind running the same mental process would be.
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:45 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But that's a question of continuity, not of some innate specialiness one would have that the other wouldn't.
It's not a matter of innate specialness. The only thing special about you vs it is that your perspective, the process you think of as you, is located in one place and not the other. The other one would have his own perspective from that other location.


Quote:
I'm saying that (all things being equal) a computer running my mental process wouldn't be a "simulation" of me anymore than my mind running the same mental process would be.
The computer simulation would exist at a different point in space. The intenticalness can be perfect, but it's still a separate thing as a matter of location. "You as a process with a first person perspective" can't be in two places at once.
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Last edited by kellyb; 13th April 2018 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:53 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is this the same as the qualia of experiencing redness?
That depends on if you're a zombie or not. When you stub your toe does it hurt, Darat?
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