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Old 14th April 2018, 02:22 PM   #281
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm someone who can't recall the impression of a colour. I can tell you that your car is red because I remember looking at it and noticing it was red but that creates no impression of "redness".
Really? What color is my car when you picture it in your mind?

Hans
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:22 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I don't think in colour at all, I see nothing in my minds eye, I can't "imagine a circle".
What about imagining the muscle memory of drawing a circle?
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:24 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You're having trouble answering a simple question: do you feel pain? Yes/no. If yes, congrats, you have qualia. If no, you're a zombie.
Any chance of a non self referential definition of qualia?
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:25 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Can you be a tad more specific about what it means to behave like a human brain?

My understanding is that we only know a fraction of what's going on with the human brain.
Well, presumably we will know more before we build the computer that acts like it.

Why do you think it is OK to discuss hypothetical copiers and teleporters, but we can't discuss hypothetical electronic emulators?

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Old 14th April 2018, 02:32 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Trying to actually figure out how consciousness works. It's one thing to know it where it happens, it's an entirely different thing to understand it. Building a conscious computer would be one example of "what problem are we trying to solve".


If you think "shut the book, case closed" is the right answer then can you show me the conscious computer you've built?

An irony in your statement is that it should be possible to recognize that consciousness is a hard problem to solve even without understanding what the hard problem actually is.
The "hard problem of consciousness", HPC is a specific problem, not a general statement that consciousness is hard to understand. It's a completly made up problem, that its proponents can never even show that it exists. It is usually brought up by those that want to keep humans from being prosaic bags of chemicals because they want to feel special. Also often invoked by those wanting to believe in magic.
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:36 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Okay, Joe:

How does matter give rise to organisms which have the capacity to feel, perceive or experience subjectively?
What's the addition of "subjectively" for?
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:39 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
So the security camera is conscious?
For anyone to answer that question, including yourself, you need to define "conscious".
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:40 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Really? What color is my car when you picture it in your mind?

Hans
I can't picture your car in my mind.
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:41 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I'm arguing that making a copy doesn't mean you understand what you copied. Of course the copy will be a copy.
We don't HAVE to understand what we copied. I have a hard time imagining how we could build the copier without understanding it, but ... we don't have to.

Hans
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:42 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What about imagining the muscle memory of drawing a circle?
I sincerely don't understand what you mean, there is drawing a circle and that's it as far as I can tell.
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:44 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You're having trouble answering a simple question: do you feel pain? Yes/no. If yes, congrats, you have qualia. If no, you're a zombie.
Fine, so we have qualia. So what?

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Old 14th April 2018, 02:50 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Okay, Joe:

How does matter give rise to organisms which have the capacity to feel, perceive or experience subjectively?
Do you expect anybody to be able to give you a comprehensive answer to that?

What is special about subjective perception since you feel the need to ask that question?

Hans
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:50 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
We don't HAVE to understand what we copied.
Not sure why you posted this. You're correct, we don't have to understand something to copy it. You're practically quoting me.
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:51 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Do you expect anybody to be able to give you a comprehensive answer to that?
We don't expect them too. But the people who the question is directed to claim they have the answer. If they actually do, why can't they just tell us what it is and show us the results of this understanding they claim to have?
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:53 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Guess what? This one is different. Your consciousness is where subjective experiences occur and it filters all your inputs. That makes it different.
Different from what? What do you mean by subjective experiences? (I'm not claiming they don't exist, but to discuss this we need to know what you mean by the term)

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Old 14th April 2018, 03:00 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
So the security camera is conscious?
If you define "conscious" as "able to process subjective information", then yes, a security camera is conscious.

This is, in fact, the hard problem of consciousness: We haven't defined it properly. Most existing definitions are carefully crafted to try to exclude all non-human entities from the group that has consciousness. And so far, a lot of pesky animals have turned out to fit it anyway. I would be very surprised if we will not very soon see a lot of pesky machines fit it, too.

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Old 14th April 2018, 03:04 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I can't picture your car in my mind.
I see. ... Actually, I don't, but I believe you when you say so. Interesting ... So how do you remember, say, your own car? How do you recognize it when you come back to where it is parked?

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Old 14th April 2018, 03:06 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well, presumably we will know more before we build the computer that acts like it.

Why do you think it is OK to discuss hypothetical copiers and teleporters, but we can't discuss hypothetical electronic emulators?

Hans
The transporter thought experiment has to do with "self" as a single entity occupying a single position within spacetime, and the murder/death of the previous consciousness/person before the creation of the new one. It's a given in that discussion that the recreation will be conscious, but if "you" will actually reappear at the new location is disputable.

The machine upload consciousness discussion is somewhat related insofar as it deals with the singular nature of a consciousness experiencing a first person POV, but additionally has the problem of it not being obvious that a machine can be truly conscious at all, and how to tell a good emulation of consciousness from the real deal.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:06 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Not sure why you posted this. You're correct, we don't have to understand something to copy it. You're practically quoting me.
You said:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I'm arguing that making a copy doesn't mean you understand what you copied. Of course the copy will be a copy.
So what was your point, then?

Hans
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:07 PM   #300
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I am not convinced that everybody experiences "the hard problem".

For example, if someone is extroverted or doesn't have much appreciation for aesthetics or self-reflection, they might not cognitively construct the problem.

I remember being deeply perplexed by the hard-problem as a teenager, but before then I didn't imagine there to be a problem.

I bet if I was to ask my 5 year old niece "Isn't it amazing that you experience anything at all, and why do you think that is?" I imagine i'd get a very trivial answer that didn't acknowledge a hard problem. Presumably it would be because my niece hasn't yet been culturally conditioned to think of the world in terms of mind-independent matter producing conscious representations.

Without having first undergone this irrational process of linguistic and cultural indoctrination and then explored its logical implications, I don't see why anyone would believe there was a hard problem.

It is telling that the German Idealists going back to Kant, who saw experience as primary and matter as a derivative construct whose structure was dependent upon necessary conditions of experience, never acknowledged a "hard" problem.

Nowadays, I no longer assent to the idea of an unsolvable hard problem, but not for the reasons scientifically minded philosophers give who usually completely fail to address the phenomenological and grammatical confusions of our times from which the problem is born.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:08 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
If you define "conscious" as "able to process subjective information", then yes, a security camera is conscious.

This is, in fact, the hard problem of consciousness: We haven't defined it properly. Most existing definitions are carefully crafted to try to exclude all non-human entities from the group that has consciousness. And so far, a lot of pesky animals have turned out to fit it anyway. I would be very surprised if we will not very soon see a lot of pesky machines fit it, too.

Hans
It makes sense to assume similar mammals are conscious. They have almost identical brains and evolutionary origins.

Our machines are being created by us to fake consciousness, tho.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:12 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
If you define "conscious" as "able to process subjective information", then yes, a security camera is conscious.
What subjective information is the security camera processing?

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
This is, in fact, the hard problem of consciousness: We haven't defined it properly. Most existing definitions are carefully crafted to try to exclude all non-human entities from the group that has consciousness. And so far, a lot of pesky animals have turned out to fit it anyway. I would be very surprised if we will not very soon see a lot of pesky machines fit it, too.
Can you cite one of those definitions? I've never seen such a definition. And I think it's self evident many animals are conscious in the same way we are. And didn't you just tell me that security cameras are conscious??
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:12 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The transporter thought experiment has to do with "self" as a single entity occupying a single position within spacetime, and the murder/death of the previous consciousness/person before the creation of the new one. It's a given in that discussion that the recreation will be conscious, but if "you" will actually reappear at the new location is disputable.
OK; but this is the reason I say that the copier example is useless: The materialist says, yes the person in the new location is "you", and the dualist will say it is not. And that's as far as it gets.

Quote:
The machine upload consciousness discussion is somewhat related insofar as it deals with the singular nature of a consciousness experiencing a first person POV, but additionally has the problem of it not being obvious that a machine can be truly conscious at all, and how to tell a good emulation of consciousness from the real deal.
And the materialist says that the artificial intelligence IS the real deal, and the dualist says it ain't. And that is as far as it gets.

Hans
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:13 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
No it's not.
Yes it is.

(See? Two can play that game )
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:14 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
What subjective information is the security camera processing?


Can you cite one of those definitions? I've never seen such a definition. And I think it's self evident many animals are conscious in the same way we are. And didn't you just tell me that security cameras are conscious??
It ALL depends on your definition of consciousness. Tell me what it is and I'll tell you (to the best of my insight) which things are conscious.

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Old 14th April 2018, 03:16 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
You said:

So what was your point, then?
That was my point. I was responding to the post immediately ahead of mine. I didn't quote it so maybe you didn't make the connection.

The post ahead of mine seemed to be missing the point of the conversation. He said, paraphrasing, that a copy of a conscious entity would be a conscious entity also. I pointed out that that wasn't in dispute. The point being discussed was whether we understood consciousness.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:18 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
It ALL depends on your definition of consciousness. Tell me what it is and I'll tell you (to the best of my insight) which things are conscious.
Are you conscious? Use your own definition as based on your own experience.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:18 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
OK; but this is the reason I say that the copier example is useless: The materialist says, yes the person in the new location is "you", and the dualist will say it is not. And that's as far as it gets.



And the materialist says that the artificial intelligence IS the real deal, and the dualist says it ain't. And that is as far as it gets.

Hans
1) Darat and I are materialists, not dualists, but we both have a similar opinion about why we wouldn't enter the transporter

2) there are lots of interesting conversations happening about how to maybe be able to tell true artificial consciousness from a cleverly programmed Siri.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:48 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I see. ... Actually, I don't, but I believe you when you say so. Interesting ... So how do you remember, say, your own car? How do you recognize it when you come back to where it is parked?



Hans


I often struggle to find my car in a large car park! I know what make it is, what colour it is,my registration is so I have either make a conscious effort to remember where I parked it via referents I can find again (e.g. under the billboard with the advert for Lurpack) or look at every car to try and find mine.

Interestingly I think this is why I have such a terrible sense of direction, I don’t have a “visual” memory of a route.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:53 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Trying to actually figure out how consciousness works. It's one thing to know it where it happens, it's an entirely different thing to understand it. Building a conscious computer would be one example of "what problem are we trying to solve".
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Answering "What is consciousness?" with "It's well understood, it's an illusion, and just brain activity" is like answering the question of "What is dark matter?" with "It's the component of the universe that isn't ordinary matter. Case closed!"
“How does consciousness actually work?” is a vastly different thing than what I have been discussing in this thread.

I think that researching neural anatomy and attempting to produce intelligence in software are two reasonable approaches to answering it.

Do you have an alternative?
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:57 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You're having trouble answering a simple question: do you feel pain? Yes/no. If yes, congrats, you have qualia. If no, you're a zombie.
Interesting. Did you know that there are people born without being the ability to feel pain?

They tend to injure themselves, but I don’t believe that they eat brains.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:58 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
“How does consciousness actually work?” is a vastly different thing than what I have been discussing in this thread.

I think that researching neural anatomy and attempting to produce intelligence in software are two reasonable approaches to answering it.

Do you have an alternative?
It's some other people in the thread, not you, who have been saying the answer to "how does consciousness work?" is "via brain activity", as though that's a sufficient answer to the question.

I agree with you about those being good ways of starting to figure it out.
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Old 14th April 2018, 05:11 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
So the security camera is conscious?
Are eyeballs conscious?

Does it matter?

Why?
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Old 14th April 2018, 06:12 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Any chance of a non self referential definition of qualia?
Wow, you're really having trouble with a simple question. Here, I'll show you how it's done:

Fudbucker: Do you feel pain?
Average person: Why yes, yes I do
Fudbucker: You know that sensation of pain you admitted to feeling? Right, that's qualia!
Average person: Great! Easy! What's all the confusion about?
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Old 14th April 2018, 06:14 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Fine, so we have qualia. So what?

Hans
This seems to be a major stumbling block for some people.
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Old 14th April 2018, 06:16 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Yes it is.

(See? Two can play that game )
Except when you look at when the book was published and whether investigations into consciousness stopped after the book came out, you come to an inescapable conclusion: Dennet didn't explain consciousness.

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Old 14th April 2018, 06:28 PM   #317
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No "qualia" are not just "feelings."

They are "feelings" with some extra category or criteria attached to them. An extra criteria like everything else in this thread that people are just going out of their way to aggressively not define.

We can put you in an MRI right now and literally watch you feel pain on a neurological level. What's the mystery?
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Old 14th April 2018, 08:56 PM   #318
kellyb
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No "qualia" are not just "feelings."

They are "feelings" with some extra category or criteria attached to them.
Where are you getting that from?

The wiki on qualia seems to state it pretty clearly as "individual instances of subjective, conscious experience." Feelings will be included there.
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Old 14th April 2018, 08:59 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

We can put you in an MRI right now and literally watch you feel pain on a neurological level. What's the mystery?
You could have a robot programmed to withdraw from high levels of heat and see that response activating in the circuity on something like an MRI, and it won't tell you if the robot experiences pain or not, or why it does or doesn't.
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Old 14th April 2018, 09:15 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Where are you getting that from?

The wiki on qualia seems to state it pretty clearly as "individual instances of subjective, conscious experience." Feelings will be included there.
Am I ever going to get an explanation or answer for anything in this discussion that isn't a loop of self referrals that refer back to the thing they are supposed to be answering with in turn refer back to the thing they are supposed to be answering which in turn refer back to the thing they are supposed...

"Individual instance of subjective, conscious experience."

That's a lot of words to say nothing. And least two of those words are words I'm stilling waiting on anything resembling a definition of. One of them is begging the question. One is a pointless distinction without difference.
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