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Old 14th April 2018, 09:33 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You could have a robot programmed to withdraw from high levels of heat and see that response activating in the circuity on something like an MRI, and it won't tell you if the robot experiences pain or not, or why it does or doesn't.
If you put the robot under the MRI and you saw the same or equivalent neurological process as a human does feeling pain in whatever it was using to process information, yes it absolutely it would. Because that neurological process, those flashes of electrical impulses jumping from neuron to neuron.. that's pain. Pain isn't that plus something else.

And I really think people aren't getting that on some level. I say "The feeling of pain is your nociceptiors transmitting sensations of extreme hold, cold, tearing, crushing, ripping or chemical reactions along your C and A-Delta spinal fibers to your brain where various parts of your brain process it as a potential threat or damaging action and triggers a bunch of various physiological and behavioral actions" and everybody nods and agrees (because that's what physical pain is) but then they want to keep going and add stuff to it as if that's not telling the whole story.

Our experiences our are experiences, not our experiences plus... something vague and undefined that we just have to have added onto them to make them "real" because we think we have to.

This all ties back to people... just not seeing their brains as "them." They see their brains as this distinct, separate calculating and processing thing, a machine added to "them" to perform a job. Your brain is like an on call computer that you ask to do math problems and store the location of the cheese in the fridge, but's not "you" or it seems so very, very many people seem to feel on a deep level.

Pain isn't something you feel plus experience. You just feel it. "Experience" is just trying to use a functionally the same but slightly more grandiose sounding term to make it seem more mystical and complex than it is. It's charging a 20% markup on a blanket because you call a "duvet."

We still haven't moved a step beyond "It would be different because... well it would be" because people are having trouble understanding that these philosophical handwringings and determining which philosophical fan club you belong to isn't that important or meaningful. It's all semantics and categorization.
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Old 14th April 2018, 09:44 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Am I ever going to get an explanation or answer for anything in this discussion that isn't a loop of self referrals that refer back to the thing they are supposed to be answering with in turn refer back to the thing they are supposed to be answering which in turn refer back to the thing they are supposed...

"Individual instance of subjective, conscious experience."

That's a lot of words to say nothing. And least two of those words are words I'm stilling waiting on anything resembling a definition of. One of them is begging the question. One is a pointless distinction without difference.
Which ones?
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Old 14th April 2018, 09:55 PM   #323
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"Individual instance of subjective, conscious experience."

Individual - meaningless. All experiences are individual. That's what experience means.
Instance - As opposed to... what? What did that word add?
Subjective and conscious - Nobody has yet answered what those words mean without just... defining them as themself.

"Subjective" usually means related to personal experience which... yeahs that's what all the words in that definition meant.

"Consciousness" We've talked about in length and gotten nowhere.

So all we're left with is "Experience" and a bunch of words.

This is marketing terms. This is calling a mattress a "sleep system."

It's a bottle of ketchup and a "Specific individual instance of a bottle of tomato paste ketchup." Just adding a bunch of words that all say the same thing hoping it will make it sound cooler.
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Old 14th April 2018, 10:18 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If you put the robot under the MRI and you saw the same or equivalent neurological process as a human does feeling pain in whatever it was using to process information, yes it absolutely it would. Because that neurological process, those flashes of electrical impulses jumping from neuron to neuron.. that's pain. Pain isn't that plus something else.
AIs are unlikely to ever have silicon neurons and synapses within a perfectly or even near-perfectly arranged emulation of a human brain. That's not where the research is headed. Computers don't have neurological processes.

If artificial consciousness ever happens, it's going to be it's own, probably very unique form of consciousness.

Quote:
And I really think people aren't getting that on some level. I say "The feeling of pain is your nociceptiors transmitting sensations of extreme hold, cold, tearing, crushing, ripping or chemical reactions along your C and A-Delta spinal fibers to your brain where various parts of your brain process it as a potential threat or damaging action and triggers a bunch of various physiological and behavioral actions" and everybody nods and agrees (because that's what physical pain is) but then they want to keep going and add stuff to it as if that's not telling the whole story.
That highlighted part is where the kicks in. You seem to be under this weird impression that far, far, far more is know about even basic neurology than is actually known.

Do ants feel pain? Dust mites?

Quote:
This all ties back to people... just not seeing their brains as "them." They see their brains as this distinct, separate calculating and processing thing, a machine added to "them" to perform a job. Your brain is like an on call computer that you ask to do math problems and store the location of the cheese in the fridge, but's not "you" or it seems so very, very many people seem to feel on a deep level.
"You" happen in your brain as a process of series of processes, but your brain isn't you.

Quote:
Pain isn't something you feel plus experience. You just feel it.
Exactly.

Quote:
"Experience" is just trying to use a functionally the same but slightly more grandiose sounding term to make it seem more mystical and complex than it is. It's charging a 20% markup on a blanket because you call a "duvet."
I had no idea some people considered "experience" a $10 word. Note to self made!

Quote:
We still haven't moved a step beyond "It would be different because... well it would be" because people are having trouble understanding that these philosophical handwringings and determining which philosophical fan club you belong to isn't that important or meaningful. It's all semantics and categorization.
Yes, Joe, you've made it abundantly clear that you think the consciousness discussions are stupid and lame.

Quote:
It's all semantics
That's you who keeps saying the language definitions are insufficient (or, alternately, that using the word "experience" is ridiculously grandiloquent! LOL)
Quote:
and categorization
Categorization is a necessary aspect of comprehension. Or put another way, "to start building explanatory bridges from the subjective and phenomenal to the objective and measurable."
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Old 14th April 2018, 10:34 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Wow, you're really having trouble with a simple question. Here, I'll show you how it's done:

Fudbucker: Do you feel pain?
Average person: Why yes, yes I do
Fudbucker: You know that sensation of pain you admitted to feeling? Right, that's qualia!
Average person: Great! Easy! What's all the confusion about?
I think you are using a non standard definition of qualia. As far as I knew qualia wasn't limited to the processes involved in pain?
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Old 14th April 2018, 10:36 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You could have a robot programmed to withdraw from high levels of heat and see that response activating in the circuity on something like an MRI, and it won't tell you if the robot experiences pain or not, or why it does or doesn't.
It does all boil down to definitions, in the above example what does "experience" mean?
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Old 14th April 2018, 10:36 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This seems to be a major stumbling block for some people.
Is "the feeling of loud noise" also a qualia?
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Old 14th April 2018, 11:25 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think you are using a non standard definition of qualia. As far as I knew qualia wasn't limited to the processes involved in pain?
Physical sensations are one of many types of qualia.
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Old 14th April 2018, 11:28 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It does all boil down to definitions, in the above example what does "experience" mean?
Has a sensation or feeling of pain.
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Old 15th April 2018, 12:11 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Physical sensations are one of many types of qualia.
So not the definition fudmaker seems to be using.

Can we get an agreed definition for what (in this thread) we mean by qualia?
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Old 15th April 2018, 12:11 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Has a sensation or feeling of pain.
So pain?
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Old 15th April 2018, 04:18 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Our experiences our are experiences, not our experiences plus... something vague and undefined that we just have to have added onto them to make them "real" because we think we have to.
The magic bean theory of consciousness. If the feeling has a magic bean, it's a qualia.
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Old 15th April 2018, 05:38 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
So pain?
You need a verb for the sentence to be grammatically correct.
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Old 15th April 2018, 05:44 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You need a verb for the sentence to be grammatically correct.
But that doesn't add any meaning or context to the word.

If someone says they went for a run do you then make them clarify if they also experienced the sensation of running?
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Old 15th April 2018, 05:49 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The magic bean theory of consciousness. If the feeling has a magic bean, it's a qualia.
The magic bean is the difference between the "sensing" done by bacteria and electronics, and mammals.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:32 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The magic bean is the difference between the "sensing" done by bacteria and electronics, and mammals.
And what's the difference (that isn't just a difference of degree) between those?

Let me guess you're just gonna answer by saying something that's functionally "Well that's the difference I'm talking about."
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:41 AM   #337
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Pains and other feelings can be shown and expressed in language, but they cannot be represented.

The idea that our language represents what we mean is the the reason for all the confusion.

I can write "ow!" to express the pain of my stubbed toe, and i can translate it into culturally equivalent expressions, and I can show pictures of feet colliding with rocks etc, and yet I haven't represented anything I meant.

This is a representation:

i -> 1, ii -> 2, iii -> 3, iv -> 4, ...

Whereas this is nonsense:

The pain of my stubbed toe -> "The Pain of my stubbed toe"
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:20 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And what's the difference (that isn't just a difference of degree) between those?

Let me guess you're just gonna answer by saying something that's functionally "Well that's the difference I'm talking about."
I'm of the opinion that the difference between a thermostat sensing high temperature and a mammal feeling pain from heat is a matter of quality, not quantity, but you're free to disagree.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:53 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm of the opinion that the difference between a thermostat sensing high temperature and a mammal feeling pain from heat is a matter of quality, not quantity, but you're free to disagree.
Okay but for this conversation to go anywhere you have to at least try to explain this qualitative difference you think there is in a way that isn't purely circular or purely recursive.

When someone say an suitably advanced robot could maybe feel pain but never experience pain or could experience pain but never feel pain or feel pain but never have the qualia of pain or variation or variation or variation thereof when asked to explain the difference between the two you can't just define one completely within the context of the other.

That's what this whole thing is. A long game of "Yeah it's the same... but" hoping the fact that what is being presented is a distinction without difference at best, a distinction without difference with an agenda at worst will go unnoticed.

Like Darat said upthread a lot of this does just seem to stem from a desire to just not be nothing more than a meatsack powered by electrical impulses.

And eventually I do think we'll get there. Some variation on the "Well if you're comfortable thinking that's all there is..."
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:06 AM   #340
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Quote:
Okay but for this conversation to go anywhere you have to at least try to explain this qualitative difference you think there is in a way that isn't purely circular or purely recursive.
Your beef here is with the English language. I don't know what to tell you.

Quote:
And eventually I do think we'll get there. Some variation on the "Well if you're comfortable thinking that's all there is..."
Actually what we're down to is you saying there's no qualitative difference between a thermostat sensing heat and a person feeling pain (it's "just a difference of degree" right?), but okay!
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:09 AM   #341
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Again, Joe. Do ants feel pain? Do dust mites?
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:12 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Your beef here is with the English language. I don't know what to tell you.
No if there was an actual difference you'd be able to express it on some level.

I get this is esoteric topic, I'm not asking for mathematical precision but you can't just spam loop "The difference is that the wouldn't be the same, they wouldn't be the same because they are different" over and over and expect anyone to just go along with.

Quote:
Actually what we're down to is you saying there's no qualitative difference between a thermostat sensing heat and a person feeling pain (it's "just a difference of degree" right?), but okay!
*Shrugs* Sure. Where's the "gotcha" there? They are both just... electrical impulses. And?
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:26 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Again, Joe. Do ants feel pain? Do dust mites?
Let me go ahead and write the story the way you think it's gonna go.

I answer Yes, you'll go "Ah but does it 'experience' pain."
I answer No, you'll go "Then neither does the robot."

I answer that I reject the question as leading and incomplete because "pain" has many uses ranging from very simple almost stimulus response reactions in extremely simple organisms up to complex conceptualizations registering in multiple parts of the brain and I'll get another page of "It's different because it's different."

Would you call touching a hot stove pain? Because here's the thing... that single actually get processed by your brain in the same way... chronic pain does. If your hand is on a hot stove it's a waste of time to send the single to your brain, process it, and send the signal back down your arm to pull your hand away. It's a reflex. And that reflex, the decision to pull your hand away, is not handled by the brain. It's polysynaptic reflex that happens on a nerve level.

If that's pain then sure any animal that reflexively avoid damage feels pain.

But this all moot because all of this is irrelevant, a look over here shell game. A mite or an ant has a less complex neurological system than a person so I don't get what shocking revelation the possibility that they might not feel what we feel is supposed to bring about.

The whole argument is would a robot or AI or manufactured brain or what ever that was as complex as the human brain experiences things the same way.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:52 AM   #344
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Quote:
Quote:
Do ants feel pain?
I answer that I reject the question
LOL!

Quote:
If that's pain then sure any animal that reflexively avoid damage feels pain.
Bacteria use motility to avoid damage as part of their self-preservation strategy, too. I guess they can be considered to be feeling pain, as well!


Quote:
But this all moot because all of this is irrelevant, a look over here shell game. A mite or an ant has a less complex neurological system than a person so I don't get what shocking revelation the possibility that they might not feel what we feel is supposed to bring about.

The whole argument is would a robot or AI or manufactured brain or what ever that was as complex as the human brain experiences things the same way.
Are you capable of wrapping your mind around the idea that dust mites, bacteria, and thermostats might not feel pain at all?
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:00 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Are you capable of wrapping your mind around the idea that dust mites, bacteria, and thermostats might not feel pain at all?
Because you're see-sawing back and forth between different context and definitions try to trap me in a "gotcha."

Still not sure why you're talking about dust mites and thermostats since we were talking about people and advanced AIs.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:07 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because you're see-sawing back and forth between different context and definitions try to trap me in a "gotcha."

Still not sure why you're talking about dust mites and thermostats since we were talking about people and advanced AIs.
I'm trying to engage you in a conversation, not getcha' in a gotcha'.

Does neurophenomenology look very stupid and lame to you?
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:25 AM   #347
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JoeMorgue,
I feel pain. Do you reject that statement?
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:33 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No if there was an actual difference you'd be able to express it on some level.

I get this is esoteric topic, I'm not asking for mathematical precision but you can't just spam loop "The difference is that the wouldn't be the same, they wouldn't be the same because they are different" over and over and expect anyone to just go along with.
FWIW, the bolded here is absolutely 100% not true. There is a lot more nuance here than you are giving credit for. See the works of Ludwig Wittgenstein, in particular Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:40 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You need a verb for the sentence to be grammatically correct.
Yeah I've mentioned quite a few times how people mistake that you can say something in English as if it means it accurately models reality.
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Old 15th April 2018, 10:58 AM   #350
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JoeMorgue, are you conscious? Of course you are. So you do know something about what the word means after all.

And you think philosophers obfuscate??? What is it about consciousness that gets certain atheists all tongue-tied?
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:11 AM   #351
kellyb
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
JoeMorgue, are you conscious?
He rejects the question as leading, your honor!

The word conscious has no meaning, and the inquiry is a trap, so he pleads the 5th as well!
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Old 15th April 2018, 12:16 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
JoeMorgue, are you conscious? Of course you are. So you do know something about what the word means after all.
Everyone posting here is obviously conscious. Their desks are obviously not conscious. So the boundary between not conscious and conscious obviously lies somewhere between furniture and humans.

Quote:
What is it about consciousness that gets certain atheists all tongue-tied?
I don't really know, but it may be that consciousness is somehow, by some, assumed to mean something that is not supported by any definition of consciousness.

OK, I'll cut to the chase: In my opinion, here is no sharp definition of consciousness. Consciousness is a smooth slope from, ya, say, the security cam with face recognition, to humans, and possibly beyond. There is no sharp boundary, and hence no simple definition.

Oh, and the same goes for self-consciousness.

Hans
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Old 15th April 2018, 12:21 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It makes sense to assume similar mammals are conscious. They have almost identical brains and evolutionary origins.

Our machines are being created by us to fake consciousness, tho.
Oh, I do agree that most machines currently fake consciousness, because they are built to do so. But that is besides the point. I think you will be hard put to formulate a definition of consciousness that can only be met by a biological entity.

... But I'd like to see you try.

Hans
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Old 15th April 2018, 12:22 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Are you conscious? Use your own definition as based on your own experience.
Nice try. However, I asked you about your definition.

Hans
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Old 15th April 2018, 12:27 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Except when you look at when the book was published and whether investigations into consciousness stopped after the book came out, you come to an inescapable conclusion: Dennet didn't explain consciousness.
So are you saying a) Consciousness can't be explained?, or b) Consciousness can be explained. It's just that Dennett didn't succeed at explaining it.

and if b), could you please explain consciousness to me?
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Old 15th April 2018, 12:33 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I often struggle to find my car in a large car park! I know what make it is, what colour it is,my registration is so I have either make a conscious effort to remember where I parked it via referents I can find again (e.g. under the billboard with the advert for Lurpack) or look at every car to try and find mine.

Interestingly I think this is why I have such a terrible sense of direction, I don’t have a “visual” memory of a route.
I see. I had a colleague who had it like that. It was a great boon to her when they took the doors off phone-boots *) . Well, unless your car is over twenty years old or so, it will have a key remote that can make it blink lights from a distance.

Hans

*) During the nineteen seventies, when phone-boots were still ubiquitous in Compen ... ehr Copenhagen, we had a crazy guy placing bombs in phone-boots, wiring them to the door. So as a temporary emergency measure, the phone company removed all the doors, and stored them all somewhere, without marking them in any way. After the bomber was caught, they wanted to put them back on, but it turned out that not all phone-booths were alike. There were numerous different dimensions, hinge positions, and such. So in the end, the doors stayed off, much to the pleasure of the people who had otherwise had to try each side till they found the one which would open.
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Old 15th April 2018, 12:45 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Nice try. However, I asked you about your definition.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/consciousness?s=t

Definition 1

FFS
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:04 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
These kinds of threads are always hilarious. In about, oh, 6 posts someone is going to say, again, "but won't someone please oh please define consciousness??"

Then someone who won't accept definitions of words (because then they would have to argue a coherent point) will claim we're playing semantic games.
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:08 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Oh, I do agree that most machines currently fake consciousness, because they are built to do so. But that is besides the point. I think you will be hard put to formulate a definition of consciousness that can only be met by a biological entity.

... But I'd like to see you try.

Hans
I assume they probably can be conscious. For all I know, it's already happened and we just haven't detected it yet!
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:08 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Definition 1.

"The state of being conscious."

Brilliant. Simply brilliant.
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