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Old 14th April 2018, 01:42 PM   #561
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
We can test your risk assessment claims.

There are a number of businesses and localities which have declared their restrooms open to people by their declared gender.

If you are correct and such a policy represents a meaningfully increased risk of bathroom assault, we should see an uptick of restroom assaults in places with this policy.

Given how passionate about the issue people on both sides are, one would expect cases that prove the danger of inclusive policy to be pulled from local headlines and trumpeted in blogs and thinkpieces, not hard at all to find.

Now personally, the only legal incidents I've seen that pertain directly to trans bathroom access are a few cases of men entering women's bathrooms and causing trouble specifically to protest AGAINST trans access and a case or two or cis women who didn't look feminine enough being harassed as suspected biological males. Neither support your risk assessment. But I may have missed some. It's a bit too fresh an issue to have a clear statistical analysis, but surely if a real widespread danger exists, there should be at least a handful of relevant cases you could cite.
Well, I think the self declared route is likely a lot better than unisex. However:

1. Is anybody gathering these stats? I have no idea where to look.

2. Are most public toilets in these states like this now? Or is this a self selected sample of low risk businesses.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:52 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Well, I think the self declared route is likely a lot better than unisex. However:

1. Is anybody gathering these stats? I have no idea where to look.
I don't need statistics, just dig up a few individual cases. As I said in my previous post, opposition to trans people in bathrooms is very strong. I would be shocked if there were a case somewhere which could even vaguely speak to this issue and isn't seized on by, say Fox news or Breitbart or some conservative blog.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:56 PM   #563
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Found a bathroom that works for all genders jist now . . .



Turns out the one weird trick is a lockable door.

ETA: A few scholarly thoughts on point.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:57 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I don't need statistics, just dig up a few individual cases. As I said in my previous post, opposition to trans people in bathrooms is very strong. I would be shocked if there were a case somewhere which could even vaguely speak to this issue and isn't seized on by, say Fox news or Breitbart or some conservative blog.
I can certainly find cases of people being attacked, spied on, etc in public toilets. Its certainly not common, but it clearly happens. None of them say what the policy is for the particular toilet or state.
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:02 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I can certainly find cases of people being attacked, spied on, etc in public toilets. Its certainly not common, but it clearly happens. None of them say what the policy is for the particular toilet or state.
Do your research then. You're the one making a claim of a great danger that trans people need to make their comfort and safety subservient to. If you're not willing to do a little quick googling to support your claim, I'm starting to doubt it's the sincere reason for your stated position,
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:07 PM   #566
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You know I'm gonna make the radical suggestion that "How bathrooms" isn't the lynch pin upon society is gonna rise and fall.
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:18 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Do your research then. You're the one making a claim of a great danger that trans people need to make their comfort and safety subservient to. If you're not willing to do a little quick googling to support your claim, I'm starting to doubt it's the sincere reason for your stated position,
If a large percentage of toilets have this policy, then untoward things are certainly happening in them, since untoward things happen in toilets every once in a while. Or are you arguing that nobody every had a bad experience in a toilet? We presumably aren't arguing that toilets with such rules offer special protection from molestation, that toilets with more conservative rules somehow lack? It could be that there are insufficient such toilets. This comes down to stats, not anecdotes from Breitbart.

I'm not wildly bothered by this. I'd be more concerned if toilets were going gender neutral in large numbers. Typically in these kinds of debates neither side (the folk with money to pay for data to be collected, not us) is actually interested in producing robust stats, since they win or lose their case on emotional/moral/partisan grounds, so I really don't expect to find any.

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Old 14th April 2018, 02:30 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You know I'm gonna make the radical suggestion that "How bathrooms" isn't the lynch pin upon society is gonna rise and fall.
No, but most social change in any direction happens by inches. Either you defend/fight for those inches, even though they are only inches, or you defend/fight for nothing.

For what its worth, my view would be that anybody who has been diagnosed with gender disphoria should be allowed to use what ever restroom they want. I don't think they should be expected to show a doctors note to every restroom attendant.

Is it super expensive to get diagnosed in the USA? In the UK I suspect it would just be time consuming.
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Old 14th April 2018, 06:44 PM   #569
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The sexual assault by a "man in a dress" id really a secondary concern here. The big one is all the embarrassments that come along with owning a vagina and having to expose those embarrassments in front of someone who doesn't own one.

Read all that mumsnet stuff, that's what most of it's about.
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Old 14th April 2018, 07:11 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
The sexual assault by a "man in a dress" id really a secondary concern here. The big one is all the embarrassments that come along with owning a vagina and having to expose those embarrassments in front of someone who doesn't own one.

Read all that mumsnet stuff, that's what most of it's about.
Pretty much

At the end of the day it's an argument about which people's discomfort trumps the others.
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Old 14th April 2018, 11:38 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes that is how the law works.



No more so then letting gay men and women into the bathroom with straight men and women.

"We can't include this group because X percent of them might be rapist" wasn't valid for gay people, it's not valid for trans people, it's not valid for refugees. Hell it's not valid for straight men despite popular opinions to the contrary.

You really think an unlocked bathroom door with a stick figure on it is what's stopping rapist now? That's there's actually rapists and molesters and peeping toms going "I really want to assault somebody... as soon as I have an excuse to be in the bathroom with them?"

This is turning into the old joke about the kid who wants to run away from home but can't because his mommy won't let him cross the street.
I struggle to imagine rapists in general doing the raping in a toilet. Isn't most rape involving binge drinking and drug abuse (or in prison)?

Now if we're going to talk about general harassment or predation then what you said also covers that. It's hard to believe anyone makes this argument seriously, and yet I routinely see it from what I struggle to categorize as anything other than paranoia mixed with misandry
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Old 14th April 2018, 11:48 PM   #572
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I would think men are more at risk of having women in the men's room than the reverse since men mostly use urinals. Therefore, they're out in the open. If you're in the women's room, you have to go peeping over, under or maybe through the door (you know the doors with way-too-large-of-a-crack). Very suspicious.

I bet if you looked into it you would see that men are more likely to be assaulted by women than the reverse, in bathrooms, since women are so much more likely to jump into the men's room due to long lineups (especially at bars and where drinking will lead to this kind of behavior anyway). Couple that with the idea that sexual assault of men is a non-issue and that "men are always asking for it" and you have a recipe for worse outcomes.

That's just a guess, though.
That said, I still think the concern is completely silly from either side.
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Old 14th April 2018, 11:49 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I struggle to imagine rapists in general doing the raping in a toilet. Isn't most rape involving binge drinking and drug abuse (or in prison)?

Now if we're going to talk about general harassment or predation then what you said also covers that. It's hard to believe anyone makes this argument seriously, and yet I routinely see it from what I struggle to categorize as anything other than paranoia mixed with misandry
Most rape is obviously committed by people who the victim knows, yet some people are still attacked by a stranger and dragged into the bushes. That is obviously at the less common/most extreme end of a spectrum of things strangers can do.

Equally, the fear of such things is clearly not uncommon even if one disagrees with how rational it is. Whose discomfort trumps whose. Do we go for some utilitarian calculus? Or are some types of discomfort more important than others?
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Old 14th April 2018, 11:59 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I would think men are more at risk of having women in the men's room than the reverse since men mostly use urinals. Therefore, they're out in the open. If you're in the women's room, you have to go peeping over, under or maybe through the door (you know the doors with way-too-large-of-a-crack). Very suspicious.

I bet if you looked into it you would see that men are more likely to be assaulted by women than the reverse, in bathrooms, since women are so much more likely to jump into the men's room due to long lineups (especially at bars and where drinking will lead to this kind of behavior anyway). Couple that with the idea that sexual assault of men is a non-issue and that "men are always asking for it" and you have a recipe for worse outcomes.

That's just a guess, though.
That said, I still think the concern is completely silly from either side.
Could well be. From that, one might try and make the case that women shouldn't make such a big deal about a bit of minor sexual assault/voyerism/intimidation.... but that doesn't seem to be the way society as a whole views things these days. I think one has to sympathetic if many women react in keeping with the dominant societal narrative. If some of them self identify as being in mortal fear of this, I'm not sure that one can just dismiss it out of hand.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:27 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm sure it is very small.
Vanishingly small. As in not a real concern.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I don't follow. Its dumb to let self identified trans women in? Or its dumb to think that if all you need to enter is to self identify as a woman, means any man has permission to enter? In a unisex toilet, clearly all men have permission to enter.
I think it's stupid to suggest that allowing trans-women to use the women's room will open the door to predatory male rapists to also use the women's room as a pretext to identify targets and attack them.

Trans-women dress as women. This "self-identification" is how they live their lives and not just what they're thinking in their head as they enter the bathroom. No man is going to dress as a woman so he can assault women in the bathroom, people who do that try not to draw attention to themselves.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Not quite sure what you mean. I could, if inclined, spend a bunch of time in the gents without arousing too much suspicion. I could presumably do the same in a unisex toilet.
You could, presumably, spend a fair amount of time sitting on a toilet in a stall without drawing much attention, but standing around checking out the people coming and going? No. That's stupid.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It is clearly the case that at least some women have been attacked in single sex toilets. There are very few unisex toilets out there, so I don't see how evidence could exist.
That's not clearly the case at all.

What are the statistics for women being attacked in women's bathrooms, and how many of those attacks are by trans-women? If you can't answer that, then you're just making up crap.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
To take a different tack.... a pedophile might perhaps get banned from going within a mile of the local scout groups camping ground. That's not because disregarding the ban is going to be an issue for somebody who wants to rape a child, but with the ban all you have to do is catch him hanging around the camping ground and its back to jail for him without waiting for him to attack anybody. By the same token, if a man is spending time hanging out in the women's toilets, you don't have to wait for him to attack somebody. These rules aren't there because people with I'll intent respect them, so much as because they mean you don't have to wait for them to do something terrible.
Again, how many trans-women rape cis-women in public bathrooms? I'm guessing the number is pretty close to zero, making your fear-mongering stupid.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Since we haven't gone unisex, or self identified yet with toilets who knows? It will be an interesting experience.
The default is and always has been "self-identified". Trans-women use the women's room.
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Old 15th April 2018, 04:55 PM   #576
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I can't imagine a more pointless waste of time than continuing to post in this thread, but I rashly came back to see what people were saying.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I think it is a fair description of exactly how Rolfe classified trans people in her first post. See

[Ponderingturtle snips half my post]

The only motives she ascribes for being trans are sexual fetish.

So let's just look at the rest of the post.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Young children who happen to like clothes and/or toys deemed more appropriate for the opposite sex are now being fast-tracked into a life of permanent medicalisation, disfiguring surgery and serious medical consequences resulting from the use of powerful hormones to try to mimic the endocrinology of the opposite sex. As one masculine-presenting woman who was old enough to avoid being railroaded recently said, "I screamed and screamed that I was a boy, but I didn't want to be a boy, I wanted the things that boys had. The short hair and the skateboard and the jeans and the Power Rangers t-shirt." Girls like her are now being encouraged to have mastectomies and take testosterone.

It's the most horrendously sexist thing imaginable. You're a girl and you like blue and short hair and Meccanno, or you're a boy and you like pink glitter and Barbie dolls, you must have been born in the wrong body, never mind, we'll change it for you and we'll make you feel so special and brave for being an amazing trans-kid!

And don't get me started on rapid-onset gender dysphoria, which has replaced anorexia nervosa as the destructive social contagion among adolescent girls who hate their bodies. At least with anorexia nervosa nobody "affirmed" the skeletal waif in her belief that she was grossly obese. Girls with ROGD are being hailed as brave and special and offered testosterone as young as thirteen. You might as well give an anorectic girl a calorie-controlled diet sheet and schedule her for gastric band surgery.

So no, all this gender stuff isn't harmless, it's destroying lives right now. It will blow over the way the recovered memories of Satanic abuse thing blew over, but in the mean time some kids are being seriously damaged. I hate to think what the lawsuits are going to look like by the time these adolescents reach middle-age and the consequences of the hormones they've been given really start to bite.

I'm pretty sure I posted this link already. Gender dysphoria is not one thing. This is an extremely important point and I really don't think anyone can have an informed conversation about this issue unless they are familiar with the material presented in this article.

The three (main) presentations are homosexual trans-sexualism (HSTS), which presents at a very early age, before puberty, and which affects both sexes, rapid onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) which almost exclusively affects adolescent girls and is largely a social contagion, and autogynaephilia (AGP) which is a paraphilia only affecting men and which manifests at or after puberty, never before.

In western societies AGP is the predominant group. While by no means all AGP men are aggressive, entitled, predatory creeps, there is a subset who are and this group is disproportionately represented in the ranks of the trans activists. Not only are they determined to colonise and occupy women's protected spaces in order to validate their paraphilia, they are instrumental in the current vogue for "affirming" youngsters presenting with the other two categories of gender dysphoria and encouraging them into a life of cross-sex hormones and surgery.

In eastern societies HSTS is very much the predominant presentation, mainly due to the fact that being homosexual there is anything from frowned upon to illegal and attracting the death penalty, whereas being trans-sexual is pretty well accepted. Very large numbers of homosexual men therefore choose or are forced to transition in order to be able to express their sexuality in an acceptable manner.

Anyone claiming "you're saying the only reason for being trans is a sexual perversion" is either being utterly disingenuous or can't read.

The current situation is extremely complex with different groups affected in different ways. However the really problematic ingredient is the behaviour of the subset of AGP men who make up the majority of the "trans activist" demographic, their demands to be recognised as women without any qualification and to occupy women's protected spaces, and their political activism promoting affirmation and fast-tracking to hormones and surgery as the only acceptable way to manage the other two groups.

Objecting to the behaviour and agenda of the militant trans activist demographic is by no means the same as declaring that all trans people are in that demographic. Of course they aren't. There are a fair few trans people firmly aligned with team radical feminist in their opposition to the militant group. One of the most entertaining commentaries on all this is Miranda Yardley's blog. I thoroughly recommend having a read at it, as well as Lily Maynard's blog (she is the mother of a teenage girl who had ROGD but got over it) and the 4th wave now blog.

ETA: See this very interesting and thoughtful twitter thread from a trans woman who explains all this better than I can.

https://twitter.com/seven_hex/status/985219754540625921

Or just carry on arguing about semantics, talking past each other, and labelling people you disagree with "transphobes" so you can avoid actually addressing any of the points raised. I don't really care.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:08 AM   #577
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From now on you shall refer to me as Kloinkingerg, and if you don't, you're a sexist who's offending me and you should be ashamed.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:39 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
How many occurances of cis-women being assaulted by trans-women in bathrooms have their been?
And how does it compare to the number of trans women assaulted for using the bathroom by cis people?
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:40 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
From now on you shall refer to me as Kloinkingerg, and if you don't, you're a sexist who's offending me and you should be ashamed.

It's a couple of years old, but on the subject of preferred pronouns : https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7339866.html

Quote:
A student has requested that his university call him "His Majesty" to protest against a new policy that respects students’ pronouns of choice, including “they” and “ze”.

The University of Michigan’s new campus policy is to allow students to choose their own personal pronoun which must be respected by other campus members, including professors.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:44 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
The sexual assault by a "man in a dress" id really a secondary concern here. The big one is all the embarrassments that come along with owning a vagina and having to expose those embarrassments in front of someone who doesn't own one.

Read all that mumsnet stuff, that's what most of it's about.
So they are of course cool with trans guys. No reason to feel uncomfortable around men like that.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:56 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
It's a couple of years old, but on the subject of preferred pronouns : https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7339866.html
And the never of Marion trying to get everyone to call him John. No real american would ever refer to Marion Michael Morrison as "John Wayne". He was and always should be Marion.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:02 AM   #582
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This article seems to be paywalled for some people but not others. A very interesting read if you can access it.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mc...ion-1402615120

The mantra that transitioning is unquestionably the best treatment for gender dysphoria doesn't seem well supported, and the scary suicide rates appear to be the ones after transition.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:07 AM   #583
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That's the same Paul McHugh who calls homosexuality an "erroneous desire".

Have you looked at any of the science that doesn't support your position?
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:30 AM   #584
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I didn't know that. I'm also behind the paywall and only read some extracts. But that's the very definition of argumentum ad hominem.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:43 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I didn't know that. I'm also behind the paywall and only read some extracts. But that's the very definition of argumentum ad hominem.
Argumentum ad hominem is an informal fallacy, pointing out that it is wrong to say that an argument is NECESSARILY incorrect because of the identity of the person making it.

Mumblethrax made no such assertion.

It is absolutely reasonable that something like an op-ed, often will have framing, spin and bias based on the beliefs of the writer. They should all be taken with a grain of salt, and the size of that grain should generally increase if the writer is known to have particular biases.

It is not fallacious to take the identity of a claimant into consideration when assessing the likelihood that facts are represented accurately and interpreted reasonably. If a homeless person with tinfoil on their head rushes up to you and screams that a nuclear bomb is on the way, you don't give it the same credence you might if the same message were on the front page of a credible newspaper.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:47 AM   #586
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While I disagree with how Rolfe is conceptualizing some parts of his argument, I think a blanket accusation of transphobia are unwarranted.

In the broad strokes he seems to be arguing the same thing I am, albeit with a little more of the piss and vinagear then I would chose to flavor my dish.

To support Transgenderism as a concept requires us to maintain or even bring back outmoded gender stereotypes and... that's a problem.

Yes there is plenty of hatred for transgender people coming from a lot of bad places. But that doesn't mean every person who disagrees with how you want to address that problem or brings up any ancillary points is evil.

Again progressives if you could stop framing anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% across the board in goal, tone, method, motivation, priority, and all possible contexts as a bigot, this conversation would go a lot better.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:49 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I didn't know that. I'm also behind the paywall and only read some extracts. But that's the very definition of argumentum ad hominem.
Ad hominems are often a useful heuristic. I'm not going to pay Rupert Murdoch to read the non-scientific musings of a crusty old homo-/transphobe.

The other part of my statement was intended to hint that you are cherry-picking opinions well outside of the scientific consensus in order to justify a transphobic position, the same tactic used by climate change "skeptics".
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:02 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
To support Transgenderism as a concept requires us to maintain or even bring back outmoded gender stereotypes and... that's a problem.
I don't think it does. It just requires us to reject the idea that gender is completely malleable. That is, we should be tendentialists rather than essentialists or...I dunno, plasticitists? We should recognize that there are tendencies (and differing distributions) for men and women (even if we aren't sure what those tendencies are), while striving to prevent those recognized tendencies from ossifying into stereotypes.

"Gender is socially constructed" isn't the new guard in sexology, it's the old, the one that prevailed from the late 60s until the 90s, largely as a result of the David Reimer case you mentioned earlier.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:12 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I don't think it does. It just requires us to reject the idea that gender is completely malleable. That is, we should be tendentialists rather than essentialists or...I dunno, plasticitists? We should recognize that there are tendencies (and differing distributions) for men and women (even if we aren't sure what those tendencies are), while striving to prevent those recognized tendencies from ossifying into stereotypes.
I just don't see this as a stable framework and honestly seems more and more like "Only gender roles I find useful (either directly thought my own use of them or indirectly via my desire to subvert them) exist."

Like at some point we stopped trying to get rid of gender roles and just all broke off into fiefdoms trying to use them in the way most advantages.

Again I still never got an answer to, what for me, this whole thing hinges on.

Ted is a biological male, penis, produces sperm, XX Chromosome... you get the picture.

Ted tells me he "identifies as a woman."

What am I supposed to do, think, conceptualize, say, and in what way am I to treat Ted differently with that new information.

What changed? If I have to apply any criteria to Ted now that I didn't before he told me he identifies as a woman that criteria is, by definition, a legit, concrete difference between men and women that can be brought up in other contexts with the exact same level appropriateness.

Ted says that him identifying as a woman means X. Put anything in X you want. If I have to accept that as valid I then get to turn around to Sue and apply X to her or this whole thing collapses as a nonsensical shell game of distinctions without difference.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:40 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I just don't see this as a stable framework and honestly seems more and more like "Only gender roles I find useful (either directly thought my own use of them or indirectly via my desire to subvert them) exist."

Like at some point we stopped trying to get rid of gender roles and just all broke off into fiefdoms trying to use them in the way most advantages.

Again I still never got an answer to, what for me, this whole thing hinges on.

Ted is a biological male, penis, produces sperm, XX Chromosome... you get the picture.

Ted tells me he "identifies as a woman."
XX males are sterile though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:40 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
While I disagree with how Rolfe is conceptualizing some parts of his argument, I think a blanket accusation of transphobia are unwarranted.

In the broad strokes he seems to be arguing the same thing I am, albeit with a little more of the piss and vinagear then I would chose to flavor my dish.

To support Transgenderism as a concept requires us to maintain or even bring back outmoded gender stereotypes and... that's a problem.

Yes there is plenty of hatred for transgender people coming from a lot of bad places. But that doesn't mean every person who disagrees with how you want to address that problem or brings up any ancillary points is evil.

Again progressives if you could stop framing anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% across the board in goal, tone, method, motivation, priority, and all possible contexts as a bigot, this conversation would go a lot better.
Wait why is this a problem? I don't understand.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:46 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
To support Transgenderism as a concept requires us to maintain or even bring back outmoded gender stereotypes and... that's a problem.
Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Wait why is this a problem? I don't understand.
Because those outmoded gender roles are arbitrary and bad.

Not only is this something I personally consider true but that was long the Progressive party line, one of those things we had to agree was true without question lest we be branded bigots.

And now I've got to abandon that and embrace them again just so a certain subcategory of people can subvert them.. or again I'm a bigot.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:49 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I just don't see this as a stable framework and honestly seems more and more like "Only gender roles I find useful (either directly thought my own use of them or indirectly via my desire to subvert them) exist."

Like at some point we stopped trying to get rid of gender roles and just all broke off into fiefdoms trying to use them in the way most advantages.
It's certainly less rigid than the other choices, but I see that as a good thing. That's the way the critical thinker should see any topic--non-dogmatically.

I don't see what's unsustainable about this idea. We should recognize that there are differences, even if only statistical differences, between men and women. We should also recognize that we aren't always sure how these differences arise.

None of that implies "I get to arbitrarily pick and choose which aspects of gender apply in any given situation". It means we have the same obligations we always have--to be thoughtful and careful.

Quote:
Ted is a biological male, penis, produces sperm, XX Chromosome... you get the picture.
I'm assuming you mean XY....

Quote:
What am I supposed to do, think, conceptualize, say, and in what way am I to treat Ted differently with that new information.
If you have different conceptual categories for men and women, Ted is asking to be thought of as a woman, rather than a man.

If you don't, congrats on being super-enlightened. All you need to do is use a different set of pronouns (in English, anyway).

Personally, the first time I met a transwoman, I discovered I had a whole slew of unspoken gender assumptions. And then again the first time I met a transman.

Quote:
Ted says that him identifying as a woman means X. Put anything in X you want. If I have to accept that as valid I then get to turn around to Sue and apply X to her or this whole thing collapses as a nonsensical shell game of distinctions without difference.
I don't think this follows.

If Pierre says he's French, he's not asking you to apply your stereotypes about the French. He's just giving you some information about the circumstances of his birth and life, which which you can make some guesses about Pierre. "He speaks French" might be a good one, but it's not guaranteed to be correct.

If it turns out he doesn't speak French, that doesn't mean you should treat Marie-Claude, also from France, as if she doesn't.

That's just the nature of complex identities. And I don't think this means the whole thing collapses because sometimes our best guesses turn out to be incorrect.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:50 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because those outmoded gender roles are arbitrary and bad.

Not only is this something I personally consider true but that was long the Progressive party line, one of those things we had to agree was true without question lest we be branded bigots.

And now I've got to abandon that and embrace them again just so a certain subcategory of people can subvert them.. or again I'm a bigot.
Gender roles aren't wholly arbitrary (they have considerable evolutionary history) even if they do have arbitrary components. They're also not "bad". Forcing people into specific roles is arguably bad (I'd say we should push as little as possible in any direction except "be happy and be successful in some domain") but I don't think aggregate gender roles are a bad thing. They're also not even outmoded, really.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:52 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because those outmoded gender roles are arbitrary and bad.
Maybe, but I see few people arguing for and certainly that we will reach any time soon a society with out gender.
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:17 AM   #596
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Well, you know, I knew that Johns Hopkins was the first centre (in the USA at least) to offer sex reassignment surgery, and that they stopped doing it some time ago because follow-up studies on patient mental health persuaded them that the benefits were not sufficient to justify continuing with such invasive surgery including the amputation of healthy body parts. That was just one article that referred to that.

So, did it happen? Did Johns Hopkins decide to opt out of the lucrative SRS bandwagon because they felt it wasn't benefiting the patients? I understand this is the case. I suppose someone is now going to find some reason to claim that this was entirely due to bigotry, hatred and transphobia? Feel free.
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:29 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
So, did it happen? Did Johns Hopkins decide to opt out of the lucrative SRS bandwagon because they felt it wasn't benefiting the patients? I understand this is the case. I suppose someone is now going to find some reason to claim that this was entirely due to bigotry, hatred and transphobia? Feel free.
First let me laugh at "lucrative SRS bandwagon", and then let me confirm that they did opt out of performing that operation...before opting back in.

And I won't argue that this was entirely due to that decision falling to a crusty old homo-/transphobe, but, y'know, I think it's a factor.
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:46 PM   #598
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I don't see what's unsustainable about this idea. We should recognize that there are differences, even if only statistical differences, between men and women. We should also recognize that we aren't always sure how these differences arise.
Fine, that's all fine. But again this can't turn into "I get to use or not use gender roles as I see fit and pretend they don't exist

More and more it really does seem like genders roles now belong solely to transgenders subvert* which is... not gonna work.

*Okay in fairness I've been using the word "subvert" here to describe this but I do realize that has more negative connotations then I should probably be using. I am not trying to paint transgenders as simply rebelling or reflexively going against the grain.

But more overall point, that it seems gender roles are only brought up in this context of a transgender person going "against" (there really is no purely neutral term, sorry) the established gender roles.

Again we can't keep outmoded ideas around just because we're so proud of the people going against them.


Quote:
If you have different conceptual categories for men and women, Ted is asking to be thought of as a woman, rather than a man.

If you don't, congrats on being super-enlightened. All you need to do is use a different set of pronouns (in English, anyway).
1. That's not how language works.

2. No this is about more than pronouns. Come on let's be somewhat reasonable here. Social movements don't rise around pronouns.

3. It seems more and more that treating transgenderism as a... temporary solution, something we're putting into place only until we rich some level of gender neutrality is becoming a popular handwave and... I'm sorry but I don't buy that. A) That makes zero sense and B) that's simply not how transgenderism has been presented to us. At times it's almost like there's some unspoken understanding that this is all some form of performance art.
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:55 PM   #599
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
1. That's not how language works.
What do you mean here? If I mistake a woman for a man, I can't switch from "he" to "she" when corrected?

That comes as news to me.

Quote:
2. No this is about more than pronouns. Come on let's be somewhat reasonable here. Social movements don't rise around pronouns.
Of course it is. It's about the fact that gender exists, and the people who think they don't see gender are only kidding themselves.

Quote:
3. It seems more and more that treating transgenderism as a... temporary solution, something we're putting into place only until we rich some level of gender neutrality is becoming a popular handwave and... I'm sorry but I don't buy that. A) That makes zero sense and B) that's simply not how transgenderism has been presented to us. At times it's almost like there's some unspoken understanding that this is all some form of performance art.
I really don't have much interest in pursuing this line of thought. It seems obvious to me that gender nihilism is not the goal for most people, including most transgendered people, so this contradiction amounts to a straw man. No reasonable person is asking you to completely obliterate gender while also recognizing differences in gender.
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Old 16th April 2018, 01:14 PM   #600
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
...I can't imagine a more pointless waste of time than continuing to post in this thread, but I rashly came back to see what people were saying...

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This article seems to be paywalled for some people but not others. A very interesting read if you can access it.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mc...ion-1402615120

The mantra that transitioning is unquestionably the best treatment for gender dysphoria doesn't seem well supported, and the scary suicide rates appear to be the ones after transition.


Well, here's what people are saying.

Tsukasa Buddha back on page 9:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12252084

Quote:
...We have plenty of research showing transition leads to the best outcomes. But again, this is the old framework of transitioning between binary genders due to dysphoria with adult patients.
Linky

http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2018...tion-treatment

Which counters your WSJ article AND it's from this year!
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