|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#201 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,180
|
Then are many of the men in this village really women because they fit your definition of women?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...o-boys-aged-1/ Thank god this boy killed himself for trying to pass himself off as a girl. It really was the best outcome for everyone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Leelah_Alcorn |
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#202 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,427
|
I'm not offended by cis, but I don't feel entitled to tell another woman she's wrong to be offended by it, either.
The idea that for women's athletics to survive, we might have to now call it "ciswomen's athletics" is...there's something wrong there. Jesus, this stuff is confusing. |
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#203 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,427
|
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#204 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#205 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,149
|
|
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#206 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#207 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,149
|
|
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#208 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
Yeah but "cis" has been around for long before this SJW nonsense began, so the meaning should be relatively safe.
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#209 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,149
|
|
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#210 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 41,839
|
Never came across that before, that's really interesting. So the defnintion (devised to include total androgen insensitivity and Swyer's syndrome in the female category) isn't perfect because of a different abnormality. As with total androgen insensitivity and Swyer's syndrome, rare and unusual genetic defects make a tiny number of individuals difficult to fit into any general rule. But the essential point remains. |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#211 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 41,839
|
"Cis" is a term hijacked from organic chemistry. When I first heard it in this context I laughed because I thought it was an obscure joke. That would be about 20 years ago. I haven't heard it much since, but as it's infiltrating into society women are reacting against it because of its connotations. We are women. Find another word for people who want to be women or wish they were women. |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#212 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis%E2...rans_isomerism
It's a term used in chemistry, and is from latin. In fact, whenever you hear "trans" (translunar, transneptunian, transcontinental, etc.), the flipside is "cis". |
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#213 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#214 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,180
|
Hey better he be dead than screwing with women for his fake trans fetish. The fake trans fetish is a well established position in this thread. Why should we cater to his sexual fetish and if refusing to have his sexual fetish cattered to is enough for him to kill himself how is that my problem? Rolfe has been clear than transgender people are just sexual fetishes and she refuses to see them catered to, so why was his parents refusing to cater to his sexual fetish a bad thing?
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#215 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,180
|
Why are you trying to include them as women when biologically they are not and it shouldn't lie that they are on their ID? If you want sex on your ID to be biologically based why would they be female? It is almost as if going by strict biology doesn't work and people can't accept the standards that at best biologically we would have three grouping functional male, functional female and other.
If sex was so easy to determine it wouldn't be an issue of contention on what the real definition of women is to compete in women's sports. |
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#216 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
This is always your excuse. "X has been clear about Y" is a dodge, and an uncivil one at that. You've made no effort, ever, to connect your strawmen do what someone is actually saying. Your entire contribution to this forum is to demonize those who disagree with you, which is ironic given how much you complain about dehumanising minorities.
No, the problem is and always has been your utter inability to grasp nuance. People are either with you all the way, or against you all the way. You have no place in a rational discussion. |
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#217 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,611
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#218 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,373
|
Or we could call it "female" or we could keep calling it women's and just exclude those with distinct advantages due to being biologically male since the whole point is the spirit of competition between females. It was never attached to a gender identity, except by coincidence (huge overlap). We already bar people for other use of performance enhancing drugs, so there's nothing crazy in this idea.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#219 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#220 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,611
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#221 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,380
|
Again focusing too much on the terms and labels and not enough on the distinctions people are trying to make does everyone a disservice.
Honestly this whole thing just reads like 3 or more separate... errrr axis's I guess you'd call it overlapping. On a biological level we have the two sexes, male and female. And yes I know intersex people exist as a biological concept but they are rare, often even one off cases and I ever so wish that progressives would understand that "Exception Worshiping" is not the purest form of "Inclusion." Then we get sexual orientation; straight, gay, bi, asexual... really does seem like it should cover everything and I have zero idea what meaningful distinction terms like pansexual and the absolute nightmare of all labels Tumblr has come up with are acually trying to say. You like sex with other genders, you like sex with your gender, you like sex with both genders (I realized I probably just answered my own question there....) or you don't like sex at all and I don't really see outside of either branding or "I want to feel special so I need a new label" (which by the way at some point we have to addreess is a lot of this) how anything else would fit in there in any meaningful sense that actually defines or describes anything new. And now for the 3rd axis, gender identity... and the one I understand the least. Transgender, as in used in the concept of a person who wants to biologically be or plans or wants to transition biology to another biological sex... yeah I get that because there's a functional difference being described. But pretty much after that all concepts of gender identity... do sort just stop making sense to me. Since I don't think biological men and women should have societal restrictions placed on them the idea of some special subcategory of people subverting them is meaningless to me. Look at it this way. Let's look at once common but slightly older and archiac term that has mostly fallen out of use... crossdresser. A crossdresser was (is, I'm sure the subculture still exists in some context) a person who preferred to wear the clothing of the other gender. See the problem? For that concept to have any meaning at all you have to agree that men and women are required by some level; social, legal, whatever to wear different clothing. If you don't, if you think men should be able to wear skirts and women to wear to wear pants and so forth... the concept stops being meaningful. And that's basically been my whole problem with gender politics in general in the last decade or so. It's honestly seemed like a concentrated effort to bring back all the old genders roles and rules I thought we were trying to get rid of for the sole purpose of letting a subculture feel special for subverting them. |
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#222 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#223 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,611
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#224 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#225 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,373
|
It has multiple usages. According to a quick google etymology search it means "across" in latin, which in astrological context apparently means "beyond". Makes sense to me. Even for gender it makes sense as "beyond sex" ie different than just one's sex.
cis IS a pointless modifier 99% of the time, because almost all discussions about men and women aren't about making such a distinction. Sometimes, the distinction is necessary and having a convenient, easy-to-understand (at least to anyone who took high school chemistry) label for this is ideal. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#226 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,388
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#227 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#228 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
Could you point to what in Rolfe's post identifies her as a transphobe? Because from where I stand, you seem to simply be labeling someone who disagrees with you on one aspect of this topic thus without justification.
But then, you're the one who accused me of defending child molesters because I argued that the word "pedophile" didn't fit the particular case we were discussing in that thread, so I don't expect much in terms of justification. |
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#229 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,656
|
I agree with you. Only one needs a modifier and one already exists, "trans." Cis is superfluous.
I also think the labels "male" and "female" are reversed because of ignorance. The two labels make it appear that the "fe" in female is the modifier but it is males that are modified. I read through some of the language used by proponents of multi-genders and it is extremely muddled. Some definitions given have a disclaimer immediately following them saying "This isn't really the definition because there is so much more to it than that." It seems to me that language is designed to express, and clarify, concepts and the language used does the exact opposite. |
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#230 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,611
|
I wouldn't use either 'across' or 'beyond' to describe a transgender's situation though, so I guess that's why it seems a little equivocal.
Quote:
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#231 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,656
|
|
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#232 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,656
|
|
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#233 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#234 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,092
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#235 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#236 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,388
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#237 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,092
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#238 |
Satan's Helper
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 42,217
|
Once again, humans are utterly confused by the difference between using of language to define things in the real world, and using of language to invent things that don't exist in the real world.
|
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#239 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,092
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#240 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,611
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|