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Old 15th April 2018, 07:53 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
What are you on about? As you claimed already that you saw on RT that "all 71 missiles were intercepted", which likely had something to do with your perception ability, not with the broadcast, here's a table about the different claims on targets and successes. The "bad guys" claim 32 missiles "have gotten through".
Laughable. It can't even get the Syrian/Russian numbers to sum correctly.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:56 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
... what the what?!
Hitler himself was gassed during WW1, hence even he abhorred it use on the battlefield.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:59 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It wasn't using chemical weapons, it was using chemicals yes but not as a weapon in battle.

Such was the fear of using them that they weren't deployed at all, not even on the Eastern front where it could be argued they would have given the Germans the biggest advantage. They could have been completely different outcomes at both Leningrad and Stalingrad.
It is claimed that the Syrian government forces were killing innocent civilians (women and children) Where do you find support for your claim these were deployed as "a weapon in battle"
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:59 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
I was more shocked that you don't consider gassing the Jews to be 'using chemical weapons'.
It wasn't in the general understanding of what "chemical weapons" refers to. Chemical weapons are used on battlefields and dropped on civilian populations. It doesn't generally refer to poison used to kill a specific group of detainees in an enclosed environment.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:00 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
More.
Why?
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:02 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Zambo View Post
It is claimed that the Syrian government forces were killing innocent civilians (women and children) Where do you find support for your claim these were deployed as "a weapon in battle"
The area where they were used is a battlefield, the city has been under siege for years and there is intense fighting.

Didn't you notice?
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:02 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Zambo View Post
It is claimed that the Syrian government forces were killing innocent civilians (women and children) Where do you find support for your claim these were deployed as "a weapon in battle"
Syrian government forces have used chemical weapons on rebel-held areas that are de facto battlegrounds.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:09 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It wasn't in the general understanding of what "chemical weapons" refers to. Chemical weapons are used on battlefields and dropped on civilian populations. It doesn't generally refer to poison used to kill a specific group of detainees in an enclosed environment.
I don't think so. These are the same chemicals that have been developed and used for the killing of people. The only difference is the method of delivery and the state of confinment of the victims. Seems to me that if the US reports are correct about the recent attacks the ability to run wasn't enough. Whether delivered by barrrel bomb or pipework seems immaterial.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:14 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Laughable. It can't even get the Syrian/Russian numbers to sum correctly.

Hehe, good catch. Well, two missiles had no target but hit. Problem solved.

(I did that table, but - I just checked - the numbers are 1:1 from the Russian press briefing. The omission is there, not with me or the secondary source)

edit: added a disclaimer to the table

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 15th April 2018 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:17 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The area where they were used is a battlefield, the city has been under siege for years and there is intense fighting.

Didn't you notice?
WW2 was a period of intense fighting. Are you suggesting that conncentration camps during that war were non-battle areas and in that case killing by chemical gases would be more appropriate than in Syria where the civilian population are more used to warfare.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:19 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Syrian government forces have used chemical weapons on rebel-held areas that are de facto battlegrounds.
Facts and evidence, and the historical truth, not your beliefs and opinions? Part of the trouble is that BBC Pravda is closely connected to the Foreign Office. I believe the BBC World Service is financed by the Foreign Office. That obviously leads to biased reporting. It seems to be more biased than even Sky News, or ITV Pravda, at the moment. I'm a bit annoyed that the BBC licence fee has gone up by about £5 in the past year:

https://swarajyamag.com/world/chemic...-missing-facts

Quote:
Perhaps the Syrian government did use chemical weapons in a stupid move that would immediately attract international condemnation and calls for war just days after the US openly acknowledged they would consider leaving Assad alone. But what if the Syrian government wasn’t responsible, and the attack was, once again, committed by the Syrian rebels? Will the world unite and join Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard in her calls to stop arming terror groups in Syria?

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 15th April 2018 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:39 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It wasn't using chemical weapons, it was using chemicals yes but not as a weapon in battle.

Such was the fear of using them that they weren't deployed at all, not even on the Eastern front where it could be argued they would have given the Germans the biggest advantage. They could have been completely different outcomes at both Leningrad and Stalingrad.
The chemicals were being used as a weapon as they were being used to murder civilians. Just because it was done indoors in an orderly fashion doesn't mean Hitler didn't use chemical weapons.

Didn't Sean Spicer come out with that same crap last year?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...olocaust-assad
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Old 15th April 2018, 10:08 AM   #133
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It all reminds me so much of Tommy Cooper on the Trisha TV show talking about psychics on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zgLH1-qsks
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Old 15th April 2018, 10:32 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Oooh! More nonsense from those delightfully pro-Putin barflies at moonofalabama!
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:08 AM   #135
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The Douma Chemical Attack – Fake News about Fake News on Russia’s Fake News

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena...doumafakenews/
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:37 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Why?
The three nations placed on themselves the role of arbiter of Assad's actions. They have done nothing to earn or prove they deserve the role.
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Old 15th April 2018, 02:01 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
More or less "problematic" than Assad and his cronies gassing Syrian citizens the week before?
More problematic than Assad gassing Syrians the week before because the evidence that he did that is pretty weak and it's not our war anyway.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:22 PM   #138
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Here's a picture of the Barzah Research and Development center. Depending on who you believe, after it was hit by a fraction of 30 missiles (seven intercepted) fired on this and other targets in the area (claim the Russians), or after it was hit by 76 missiles fired on it alone (claim UKFUS). It is properly flattened anyhow.

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Old 15th April 2018, 06:58 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Here's a picture of the Barzah Research and Development center. Depending on who you believe, after it was hit by a fraction of 30 missiles (seven intercepted) fired on this and other targets in the area (claim the Russians), or after it was hit by 76 missiles fired on it alone (claim UKFUS). It is properly flattened anyhow.

https://i.imgur.com/UQJeUGd.jpg
The US are getting better at aiming
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:54 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
I don't quite get why there are only strikes when chemical weapons are used but not when Assad is slaughtering his people with everything else? It kind of sends the message that 'that was the wrong type of killing'.

Is there a deeper reason why there is only a response with chemical weapons? I really have a hard time believing that Trump cares for a second about the suffering of Syrian people. Is this about a fear of an unstable regime having chemical weapons and using this as an opportunity to destroy them so they don't fall into the wrong hands?
I have been saying this since the Bosnia conflict and the no-fly zones in Iraq. My only explanation was that tanks were more sporting than bombs.
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Old 16th April 2018, 01:58 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Zambo View Post
I don't think so. These are the same chemicals that have been developed and used for the killing of people. The only difference is the method of delivery and the state of confinment of the victims. Seems to me that if the US reports are correct about the recent attacks the ability to run wasn't enough. Whether delivered by barrrel bomb or pipework seems immaterial.
No they weren't. Zyklon B was not developed as a chemical weapon, but as a pesticide in the 1920s. It's pretty rubbish as a chemical weapon (it has to react with water), but could be used for killing lots of people in an enclosed environment.
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:09 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The three nations placed on themselves the role of arbiter of Assad's actions. They have done nothing to earn or prove they deserve the role.
When did any of them last gas their own citizens?
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:16 AM   #143
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The trouble is, as Neville Chamberlain once said, that the public and the House of Commons only understand straight lines. He also said we should not try to delude weak and small countries into thinking they will be protected from aggression by the League of Nations. You assume nothing in a murder investigation, or in a chemical attack investigation. The White Helmets are biased. Adolf Erdogan of Turkey and Israel, should clear out of Lebanon, Syria and Iraq.
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:45 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Here's a picture of the Barzah Research and Development center. Depending on who you believe, after it was hit by a fraction of 30 missiles (seven intercepted) fired on this and other targets in the area (claim the Russians), or after it was hit by 76 missiles fired on it alone (claim UKFUS). It is properly flattened anyhow.

https://i.imgur.com/UQJeUGd.jpg
Both the Tomahawk and the Shadow Shadow/SCALP have a 450 kg warhead, and I assume the MdCN has the same. Satellite images of the site do show some individual impact points, and having extensively studied the effects WW2 bombing down to the level of individual impacts (and there was a standard 500 kg Luftwaffe bomb), it's fairly obvious to me that the damage at the large Barzah site couldn't have been caused by just 23 detonations. A number close to 76 is quite plausible, even though most of the later ones would have just been moving the existing rubble around.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 16th April 2018 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 16th April 2018, 04:54 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The three nations placed on themselves the role of arbiter of Assad's actions.
Most nations have done that. Some just said "our judgment is that he should get away with it."

I'm glad my government thought differently and acted accordingly. Hell, even Trump did the right thing for a change.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:15 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Most nations have done that. Some just said "our judgment is that he should get away with it."

I'm glad my government thought differently and acted accordingly. Hell, even Trump did the right thing for a change.
Most nations simply chose not to act as arbiter.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:16 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
When did any of them last gas their own citizens?
Not recently.if they did, it would be less problematic than what they did a few days ago.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:53 AM   #148
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Lavrov gives his best Baghdad Bob impression:

Quote:
On the air strikes, he repeated the Russian assertion that two-thirds of the more than 100 missiles fired into Syria on Saturday had failed to reach their targets.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43783427

Russian nanotechnological super weapons, blessed by orthodox priests to protect against western homosexual contaminants, prevented them from reaching their targets no doubt. Give up west you have no chance!
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:12 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Most nations simply chose not to act as arbiter.
No they didn't. Choosing to do nothing is acting as an arbiter. It's simply judging that nothing should be done about what Assad did.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:15 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Lavrov gives his best Baghdad Bob impression:



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43783427

Russian nanotechnological super weapons, blessed by orthodox priests to protect against western homosexual contaminants, prevented them from reaching their targets no doubt. Give up west you have no chance!
Apparently there's been some comment in Russia that the much-vaunted S400 surface to air missile systems, which the Russians previously claimed could defend most or all of Syria, appear to have achieved little if anything in this instance.

Of course the strike will have been carefully designed so as to avoid the S400s where possible, and who knows if Russia even tried to use them. But it's certainly something of a blow to the image of Russian SAM systems, which many talk about as if they were basically omnipotent.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:10 AM   #151
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We should just put a missile through Assad's bedroom window and have done with it.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:03 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
We should just put a missile through Assad's bedroom window and have done with it.
That's a bit unfair. Do you want the Islamic flag of Isis over Damascus as well, so that they can launch chemical attacks on London and Paris?
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:19 AM   #153
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Theresa May to make a statement to parliament shortly. Unlikely to be anything too remarkable I suspect, just informing of action already taken.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:27 AM   #154
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Maybe someone asks her how come nobody got hurt by flattening that "chemical facility" in the middle of densely populated residential areas with 76 missiles? Shouldn't there be, uhm, civilians hurt by toxic chemicals?

Honest answer would be "Crikey, no, the OPCW was there in late November the last time and just has released a report last month that they found nothing suspicious, just like last time. They're doing cancer research."
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:40 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
That's a bit unfair. Do you want the Islamic flag of Isis over Damascus as well, so that they can launch chemical attacks on London and Paris?
Someone else would take over, only now they'd be minded to target the terrorists as opposed to anybody who happens to be in a 100 mile radius of a terrorist; the humanitarian version of not throwing the baby out with the Ba'ath water.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:42 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Maybe someone asks her how come nobody got hurt by flattening that "chemical facility" in the middle of densely populated residential areas with 76 missiles? Shouldn't there be, uhm, civilians hurt by toxic chemicals?
They're not prepared 'to go', it's not a Starbucks.
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:46 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
We should just put a missile through Assad's bedroom window and have done with it.
Worked great with Saddam, right ? Iraq is such a peaceful country without him ..
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:58 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Worked great with Saddam, right ? Iraq is such a peaceful country without him ..
Pragmatically, the only real requirement is that troubled regions do not export their trouble. The US was entirely content to let the Taliban run Afghanistan, right up to the point where they supported Al Qaeda's efforts to export terrorism to the US.

There's something to be said about dropping a brick on each successive tyrant, until natural selection produces one that keeps his tyranny safely at home. The US ran into trouble in Afghanistan and Iraq by sticking around and trying to do nation-building, in nations that weren't actually interested in being rebuilt along American lines, and only resented the intrusion all the more.

Probably a better approach then full-on nation-building "regime change" would be a simple policy of "you do whatever you want, except for the stuff on this short list - the short list gets you bombed".

Israel is pretty good about this, actually.
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Old 16th April 2018, 01:33 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Most Incendiaries including napalm and white phosphorus are banned from use near civilian populations and may be banned under other treaties such as the chemical weapons ban (White Phosphorus) and bans against weapons that cause asphyxiation or severe ecological effects.
Not quite true. White Phosphorus can be used to form smoke screens to hide operations from an enemies view. It shouldn't be used indiscriminately as an incendiary, such as the operations by the IDF in Gaza in Op Iron Claw (the bursts downwards that showered WP over wide areas).
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:45 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Pragmatically, the only real requirement is that troubled regions do not export their trouble. The US was entirely content to let the Taliban run Afghanistan, right up to the point where they supported Al Qaeda's efforts to export terrorism to the US.

There's something to be said about dropping a brick on each successive tyrant, until natural selection produces one that keeps his tyranny safely at home. The US ran into trouble in Afghanistan and Iraq by sticking around and trying to do nation-building, in nations that weren't actually interested in being rebuilt along American lines, and only resented the intrusion all the more.

Probably a better approach then full-on nation-building "regime change" would be a simple policy of "you do whatever you want, except for the stuff on this short list - the short list gets you bombed".

Israel is pretty good about this, actually.
That's pretty tempting. The caveat though is; tyrannies appear to be inherently more dangerous neighbors. There may be an intrinsic need to demonize an external enemy in order to justify the regimes coercion at home.

An interesting book on the subject:
https://www.amazon.com/Case-Democrac.../dp/1586483544
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