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Old 15th April 2018, 01:45 AM   #1
Travis
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That Starbucks thing

So, any thoughts on the new Starbucks policy of not being allowed to be black and sitting around waiting for a friend?
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:56 AM   #2
dann
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A link? A quotation?
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Old 15th April 2018, 02:50 AM   #3
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If you can't be arsed to explain why should anybody be arsed to engage you?
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Old 15th April 2018, 03:08 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
A link? A quotation?
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
If you can't be arsed to explain why should anybody be arsed to engage you?

I'm sure you will be completely shocked when you learn what Travis has stated is a complete and utter lie. I guess one could give him credit for not calling the police racist this time. However, I have serious doubts he'll make it past the first page of this thread without doing so.
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Old 15th April 2018, 03:15 AM   #5
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I've just read the story I imagine the OP is referring to, but it's nothing like he describes it and therefore I have no comment. It is such a non-story I wouldn't recommend anybody waste their time over it.
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Old 15th April 2018, 03:36 AM   #6
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Easy to find - but, you're right - a non-story: Scared-for-no-reason or maybe over-zealous employee makes a mistake and her employer apologizes and takes the blame.
Black men arrested at Starbuck for not ordering anything (msn.com)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 15th April 2018, 03:57 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So, any thoughts on the new Starbucks policy of not being allowed to be black and sitting around waiting for a friend?
You lie. Don't do that. You now have pie on your face.
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Old 15th April 2018, 04:03 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Easy to find - but, you're right - a non-story: Scared-for-no-reason or maybe over-zealous employee makes a mistake and her employer apologizes and takes the blame.
Black men arrested at Starbuck for not ordering anything (msn.com)
It seems that the policy is that tables and restrooms are for paying customers only and at the time they hadn't paid, then they refused to leave when asked to. The officers apparently asked them three times to leave, and they refused, at which point they were arrested for trespassing.

The obvious question is, if it was two white women would they all have acted the same way.

If the guys responded to the employee that they were waiting for a friend before ordering, then I'd go with yeah the Employee messed up. If they just refused to go without explaining, then....

Either way, the cops appear to have just been doing their jobs.
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Old 15th April 2018, 04:04 AM   #9
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The story in the link is a bit scarce on details though. Were they asked/told to either order or leave? Were they rude? Were they waiting for their friend for an hour without ordering anything? Did the staff just call the police because scary black men had been sitting there for ten minutes and they didn't dare to talk to them?

It's impossible to tell who's to blame with the information we have so far...
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Old 15th April 2018, 04:11 AM   #10
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Man, people are absolutely determined to find something to be outraged about.
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Old 15th April 2018, 04:35 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It seems that the policy is that tables and restrooms are for paying customers only and at the time they hadn't paid, then they refused to leave when asked to. The officers apparently asked them three times to leave, and they refused, at which point they were arrested for trespassing.

The obvious question is, if it was two white women would they all have acted the same way.

If the guys responded to the employee that they were waiting for a friend before ordering, then I'd go with yeah the Employee messed up. If they just refused to go without explaining, then....

Either way, the cops appear to have just been doing their jobs.

More information here from Huffington, but it really doesn't seem to say or indicate that it's "the new Starbucks policy" (OP).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th April 2018, 05:05 AM   #12
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Years ago, back when I lived in the States, I was in a Starbucks when two homeless looking people walked in, sat down, and started eating food they brought without ordering anything. They were both black. I guess the staff wasn't watching them very closely since after they were done eating the male member of the duo picked up one of the expensive espresso machines for sale, looked straight at me and dropped it into one of his big bags and started walking out. Maybe if he hadn't brazenly stared at me while he did it, basically daring me to say anything ... Well, I immediately told the staff and they called the cops. Man, you'd have thought it was a doughnut shop for as fast as the cops responded and arrested the guy. They caught him right around the corner. Just goes to show how racist they are. Oh, and that Starbucks shop, too. Especially since they always treated me well afterwards. But better enforcement of "Order or leave" would have prevented the whole thing.

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Old 15th April 2018, 05:14 AM   #13
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At least no one got killed. Yet.
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Old 15th April 2018, 05:33 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
At least no one got killed. Yet.
Have you tried their coffee?
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:15 AM   #15
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The important thing is that everyone can use this incident to justify whatever social or political biases they currently hold, without needing any actual evidence of what really occurred.

Then when the inevitable video comes out (do you think anyone in a Starbucks might have a smartphone?) everyone who said stuff before can have the fun of adjusting their theory, doubling down on jumped conclusions, resorting to childish name calling, or calling it all fake news.

Just so long as nobody withholds judgment for lack of evidence, that would be ridiculously skeptical and thus inappropriate for this forum.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:30 AM   #16
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Yeah what everybody else is saying.

The "Starbucks thing" isn't a thing. It's bait. It's a Litmus test. It's a story, regardless of whatever merits it might have, that nobody would be talking about except for the fact that it advances their own narratives.

Nobody wants to talk about the "Starbucks thing." They want to trial balloon so they can't get reactions they can talk about.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:47 AM   #17
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I was wondering when this one would show up here...

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It seems that the policy is that tables and restrooms are for paying customers only and at the time they hadn't paid, then they refused to leave when asked to. The officers apparently asked them three times to leave, and they refused, at which point they were arrested for trespassing.

The obvious question is, if it was two white women would they all have acted the same way.
To answer the question, multiple white people were also using restrooms, sitting around without ordering anything, and so forth, and did not have the police called on them.

Quote:
Either way, the cops appear to have just been doing their jobs.
Granted, the police made it over the remarkably low bar of not shooting/choking/pepperspraying them all of a sudden for just standing there, as we often see - although when their friend walks in and says "these are my friends, we're all here to buy things", they could have slowed it down a bit. The employees very clearly screwed up in a plainly racist way, though. Starbucks themselves are halfway disavowing them.

And anyone who wants to argue about what was "in their hearts" - don't waste my time.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:02 AM   #18
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Has Starbucks acted in this way at any other time over 45 years and tens of billions of black customers served, or is their racism policy so poorly implemented that it has only occurred this one time?
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:22 AM   #19
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Anybody who uses the phrase "Being a person of privilege" about themselves should have their testimony discounted.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:25 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
...snip...And anyone who wants to argue about what was "in their hearts" - don't waste my time.
Do you know what was "in their hearts"? I suspect it was nothing other than benign feelings but you, clearly, know for sure. Wanna tell us?
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:52 AM   #21
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The worst part of this culture that has now reached the point it has a hummingbird level metabolism for constant feeding its outrage is how many discussion start with the intent purpose of just baiting someone into making a disagreeing or even neutral statement so the person in question will have somewhere to focus their outrage on.

I sick of people looking crap to get upset about and daring anyone to disagree just so they can eat their weight in outrage nectar every four hours because if they're afraid if their outrage to blood ratio gets to low they're gonna slip into a coma and die.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:13 AM   #22
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Sergeant:
Constable Savage, why do you keep arresting this man?

Constable Savage:
He's a villain, sir.

Sergeant:
...A villain.

Constable Savage:
And a jailbird, sir.

Sergeant:
I know he's a jailbird, Savage, he's down in the cells now! We're holding him on a charge of being caught in possession of curly black hair and thick lips!

Constable Savage:
Well there you are then sir.

Sergeant:
You arrested him, savage!

Constable Savage:
Thank you, sir.

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Old 15th April 2018, 08:43 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Sergeant:
Constable Savage, why do you keep arresting this man?

Constable Savage:
He's a villain, sir.

Sergeant:
...A villain.

Constable Savage:
And a jailbird, sir.

Sergeant:
I know he's a jailbird, Savage, he's down in the cells now! We're holding him on a charge of being caught in possession of curly black hair and thick lips!

Constable Savage:
Well there you are then sir.

Sergeant:
You arrested him, savage!

Constable Savage:
Thank you, sir.
Ah the SPG.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:46 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Do you know what was "in their hearts"? I suspect it was nothing other than benign feelings but you, clearly, know for sure. Wanna tell us?
Doesn't matter.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:04 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Doesn't matter.
Wow, you demand people believe you sans evidence and expect them to respect your opinion.

You ever think maybe when people experience issues like this most of the tI'm it is not a race situation but maybe how people tend to react when people act like ******** with chips on their shoulder?
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:11 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
.....
Either way, the cops appear to have just been doing their jobs.
Yeah, it looks like the Starbucks clerk crossed the line. On the other hand, if you are asked to leave private property, and when you refuse they call the cops, and the cops ask you three times to leave and you refuse, it should be obvious that consequences will ensue. Maybe they should have asked for the manager, and if the manager ordered them out they should have left and sent a stern letter to Howard Schultz, naming the clerk and the manager. Or maybe they should just have bought a $2 cup of coffee. They certainly should have left when the cops told them to. You have to pick your battles.

More details here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.bbce10c28166
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:18 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Easy to find - but, you're right - a non-story: Scared-for-no-reason or maybe over-zealous employee makes a mistake and her employer apologizes and takes the blame.
Black men arrested at Starbuck for not ordering anything (msn.com)
Gotta love that headline from MSN. It's about as inflammatory as the OP.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:30 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Have you tried their coffee?
I apparently incorrectly assumed that was the 'Starbucks thing'.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:31 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Yeah, it looks like the Starbucks clerk crossed the line. On the other hand, if you are asked to leave private property, and when you refuse they call the cops, and the cops ask you three times to leave and you refuse, it should be obvious that consequences will ensue. Maybe they should have asked for the manager, and if the manager ordered them out they should have left and sent a stern letter to Howard Schultz, naming the clerk and the manager. Or maybe they should just have bought a $2 cup of coffee. They certainly should have left when the cops told them to. You have to pick your battles.

More details here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.bbce10c28166
One could easily say the same of the Starbucks workers.

Manager: "What's the issue?"
Employee: "Those two guys there are sitting and won't leave. They said they were waiting for someone."
Manager: "Well, lots of people do that. Calm down."

I'm assuming the manager called the cops, and not the clerk directly, - and that whoever owns the location had no interest in this sort of publicity.

I'm also assuming that police went into auto "must remove trespassers" mode - again, not violent, but there should be room for some level of discretion - particularly when they say "we're waiting for our friend - there he is!" and then someone walks up and says "Yeah, I'm their friend, these are their names, they were waiting for me." And that's *especially* true when the people saying "I'm white, why are you treating these black guys differently" start recording on their camera phones. At that point, you know that you're going to end up on social media (I saw this on twitter a couple of days ago), and eventually on tv.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:41 AM   #30
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People are removed from businesses after refusing to leave every day in this country. It is a typical call an officer will go on.

What makes this case any different?
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:53 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
One could easily say the same of the Starbucks workers.

Manager: "What's the issue?"
Employee: "Those two guys there are sitting and won't leave. They said they were waiting for someone."
Manager: "Well, lots of people do that. Calm down."
That's exactly what should have happened. Regrettable that it didn't.


Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
......
I'm assuming the manager called the cops, and not the clerk directly, - and that whoever owns the location had no interest in this sort of publicity.
.....
All Starbucks are owned by the corporation, and everyone who works in one is a corporate employee. There are no Starbucks franchises, which allows the corporation to crash down hard on a store with problems.
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-s...anchise-2016-9
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Old 15th April 2018, 10:25 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I was wondering when this one would show up here...



To answer the question, multiple white people were also using restrooms, sitting around without ordering anything, and so forth, and did not have the police called on them.



Granted, the police made it over the remarkably low bar of not shooting/choking/pepperspraying them all of a sudden for just standing there, as we often see - although when their friend walks in and says "these are my friends, we're all here to buy things", they could have slowed it down a bit. The employees very clearly screwed up in a plainly racist way, though. Starbucks themselves are halfway disavowing them.

And anyone who wants to argue about what was "in their hearts" - don't waste my time.
So some source who is unnamed says this Starbucks had 2 customers who didn't buy things. Wow, nice standard of evidence.

I have an unnamed source that says that person is lying. Looks like we have exactly the same evidence.
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Old 15th April 2018, 10:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I was wondering when this one would show up here...

To answer the question, multiple white people were also using restrooms, sitting around without ordering anything, and so forth, and did not have the police called on them.

Granted, the police made it over the remarkably low bar of not shooting/choking/pepperspraying them all of a sudden for just standing there, as we often see - although when their friend walks in and says "these are my friends, we're all here to buy things", they could have slowed it down a bit. The employees very clearly screwed up in a plainly racist way, though. Starbucks themselves are halfway disavowing them.

And anyone who wants to argue about what was "in their hearts" - don't waste my time.
Mumbles links to some information here that, on its face, shows the cops racially discriminating. Granted we don't see the initial exchange but it looks like the cops simply went in and said the men were under arrest for trespass.

Maybe the cops asked the men to leave and the men tried to explain to which the cops had no patience. But it doesn't look like it.

Come-on people, most cops would go into the store and try to mediate between the manager and the two men. I hope they get asked why they didn't try mediation first.

Or they would tell the men to leave and unless the men got belligerent, no arrests would be made.


Store manager: A jerk for not having a conversation with the men to resolve the issue. The manager has to be at least a little racist, or possibly overly anal and jerkish toward anyone coming in the store without buying anything.

Cops: At a minimum biased if not outright racist. Or they've had incredibly poor training in how to mediate these kinds of issues. What a waste of police time and taxpayer dollars to arrest the men instead of mediating.

Travis: Saying it's a Starbuck's policy is beyond hyperbole given the company apologized and if the men were released at 1:30 am, chances are good the charges were dropped.

Starbucks: In serious need of better employee training.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:02 AM   #34
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Not really but they did arrest those men for no good reason.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:06 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
So some source who is unnamed says this Starbucks had 2 customers who didn't buy things. Wow, nice standard of evidence.

I have an unnamed source that says that person is lying. Looks like we have exactly the same evidence.
Common sense says Starbucks has people who come in and don't buy anything. It's a gathering place in some areas. People go in the Starbucks near me to read and don't buy anything. Two of the stores closest to me have doors connected to other businesses, a Barnes & Noble and a Kinkos. They'd be stupid to kick people out who use the chairs and tables while patronizing the adjacent stores.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:08 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Mumbles links to some information here that, on its face, shows the cops racially discriminating. Granted we don't see the initial exchange but it looks like the cops simply went in and said the men were under arrest for trespass.

Maybe the cops asked the men to leave and the men tried to explain to which the cops had no patience. But it doesn't look like it.

Come-on people, most cops would go into the store and try to mediate between the manager and the two men. I hope they get asked why they didn't try mediation first.

Or they would tell the men to leave and unless the men got belligerent, no arrests would be made.


Store manager: A jerk for not having a conversation with the men to resolve the issue. The manager has to be at least a little racist, or possibly overly anal and jerkish toward anyone coming in the store without buying anything.

Cops: At a minimum biased if not outright racist. Or they've had incredibly poor training in how to mediate these kinds of issues. What a waste of police time and taxpayer dollars to arrest the men instead of mediating.

Travis: Saying it's a Starbuck's policy is beyond hyperbole given the company apologized and if the men were released at 1:30 am, chances are good the charges were dropped.

Starbucks: In serious need of better employee training.
You missed out The men: Jerks for not doing what they were asked in the first place. If you're going to argue evidence of racism here, you could equally well conclude that the black men were racist because they did not respect the request of a white person enough to leave. Of course, this is equally ridiculous. There's no more evidence of them being racist than anybody else.

I once got asked to leave a restaurant for refusing to remove my hat, but as I'm not black I assume it was prompted by the fact I was refusing to remove my hat, and not racism. Another time two friends and I were asked, somewhat brusquely, to leave a restaurant because we'd turned up 'too late' (whatever that meant). However, one of us was Chinese so obviously this was racism. This, we are told in all too numerous ISF threads, is how it works.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:09 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
People are removed from businesses after refusing to leave every day in this country. It is a typical call an officer will go on.

What makes this case any different?
The cops didn't mediate, they went straight to arrest from the looks of the story so far. If more information surfaces, that conclusion could change.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:11 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You missed out The men: Jerks for not doing what they were asked in the first place. If you're going to argue evidence of racism here, you could equally well conclude that the black men were racist because they did not respect the request of a white person enough to leave. Of course, this is equally ridiculous. There's no more evidence of them being racist than anybody else.

I once got asked to leave a restaurant for refusing to remove my hat, but as I'm not black I assume it was prompted by the fact I was refusing to remove my hat, and not racism. Another time two friends and I were asked, somewhat brusquely, to leave a restaurant because we'd turned up 'too late' (whatever that meant). However, one of us was Chinese so obviously this was racism. This, we are told in all too numerous ISF threads, is how it works.
I haven't seen that evidence since we don't know what exchange went on between the manager and the men, and we don't know if the cops did anything other than come in and arrest the men.

If you have some other information, post a citation.

Linked above: eye-witness accounts say clearly the men merely said they were waiting for someone when asked to leave. Next thing that happened was cops came in and arrested the men while bystanders said the men had done nothing.

To repeat:
Quote:
After the men had been "quietly hanging out, chatting and waiting for their friend," she said officers entered the restaurant and asked the two men to leave, saying that they would be trespassing if they did not leave.

"The two young men politely asked why they were being told to leave and were not given a reason other than the manager wanted them to leave," she told ABC in an email.

The men told the officer that they were waiting for a friend to arrive and offered to call that friend to prove that they had legitimate business at the restaurant, she said.

At that point, she said several officers began to move tables and chairs around the two men and take them into custody.

The friend for whom the men were waiting then arrived and attempted to intervene, but police told him the men "were not paying customers and thus were trespassing," Lauren recalled.

"The two men stayed calm and did not raise their voices once. Everyone else in the Starbucks, however, was appalled," she added.

Lauren said another woman had entered the Starbucks minutes before the men were arrested and was given the bathroom code without having to buy anything and that another person in the restaurant at the time of the incident "announced that she had been sitting at Starbucks for the past couple of hours without buying anything."
That's not just two witnesses, it's a lot of witnesses.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:16 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I haven't seen that evidence since we don't know what exchange went on between the manager and the men, and we don't know if the cops did anything other than come in and arrest the men.
That's what I just said, there is no evidence. So how can you conclude any party was racist?
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:19 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's what I just said, there is no evidence. So how can you conclude any party was racist?
See my edit, I added the citations that were posted above to reiterate the evidence.
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