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Old 15th April 2018, 06:03 PM   #81
banquetbear
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
They are there to enforce the right of the property owner to determine who can remain on the property.
...it went beyond enforcing the right of the property owner to determine who could remain on the property. They were removed from the property and then promptly thrown in jail. They were only released when it was determined the "property owner" didn't want to take it any further.

I'm all for the right of the property owner to be able to get the police to remove someone from their premises. But far more than that happened here.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:05 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Travis said it wasn't a lie and did not say it was hyperbole, did he?

I'm fine with saying it was hyperbole. Did he?
Do you really believe he meant in the first post to represent it as a literal truth?
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:06 PM   #83
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Darn wave of racism
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:09 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Unless the cops were being contempt of cop dicks, they could have taken the men out and still released them.
Actually they couldn't have, at the point of arrest then the expectation is that charges will be pressed, so they can't just release them, rather they need to go through arraignment by a court to be released on bail. In this case the charges were withdrawn by Starbucks (and rightfully so) at which point they could be released, and were. The police aren't entitled to just release arrested suspects because they feel like it.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:31 PM   #85
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I am simply outraged at what the Philidelphia Police Commisioner dared to say to defend this obviously, without a question, it's the only narrative that makes sense and if you don't agree you are obviously a racist yourself, racist officers.

Quote:
Philadelphia Police Commissioner Richard Ross defended the actions of officers in the video saying his officers "did absolutely nothing wrong."
Oh is that the case Mr. Ross. I do not believe you are sufficiently checking your privilege there white devil. You're obviously white, I can tell that without checking because of the narrative. You're defending your fellow white officer it is literally the only possible reason you would make a statement like that. I mean if I wrote the narrative that institutional racism was the only possible cause and he, totally hypothetically here, turned out to be black I would look preeeetty silly let me tell you what.

I'll just check to see what he looks like, you know as a formality since the narrative of white vs black is so perfect and flawless as to not be questionable.

Oh. Oh.



Well I bet he's just really tan or something.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:33 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I am simply outraged at what the Philidelphia Police Commisioner dared to say to defend this obviously, without a question, it's the only narrative that makes sense and if you don't agree you are obviously a racist yourself, racist officers.



Oh is that the case Mr. Ross. I do not believe you are sufficiently checking your privilege there white devil. You're obviously white, I can tell that without checking because of the narrative. You're defending your fellow white officer it is literally the only possible reason you would make a statement like that. I mean if I wrote the narrative that institutional racism was the only possible cause and he, totally hypothetically here, turned out to be black I would look preeeetty silly let me tell you what.

I'll just check to see what he looks like, you know as a formality since the narrative of white vs black is so perfect and flawless as to not be questionable.

Oh. Oh.

https://www.phillypolice.com/assets/...-Comm-Ross.png

Well I bet he's just really tan or something.
...just what this thread needed: a gigantic strawman.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:40 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, their job is to enforce the law. period. They might do that by mediation in some circumstances, but it's not required.

When the manager says "I want them gone from the shop" then yes the Police do have zero options.

Consider this. Several strangers set up camp on your lawn without your permission. You decide you want them off your lawn and ring the police. Do you expect the police to come and remove them from your lawn, or to convince you to let them stay?

They did ask them to leave and told them that they would be trespassed if they didn't.

You quoted the witnesses saying that the police told them that if they didn't leave they would be trespassed in your own post. The Police have stated they were asked three times.
Maybe you guys have never been around cops or something because I know this very well and I was only arrested twice in my entire life. One time was to detain me as a runaway until my parents showed up, and the second time was to detain me until social services put me on a plane back to my home state where my parents picked me up.

I was a restless kid, what can I say?


Are you aware police often choose to write citations and don't arrest law-breakers?

Almost all states allow issuance of citations in lieu of arrest for misdemeanor crimes or petty offenses.
Quote:
Four states—Alaska, Louisiana, Minnesota, and Oregon—permit citations for some felonies. Eight states do not specify the classes of crimes for which an officer has discretion to issue a citation. Laws in 24 states create a presumption to issue citations for certain crimes or under certain circumstances. For example, Virginia directs law enforcement officers to issue citations for most class 1-4 misdemeanors.

Generally, a custodial arrest must be made if one or more of the factors below are present:
There are reasonable grounds to believe the person will not appear in court, or the person has previously failed to appear.
There are reasonable grounds to believe the person poses a danger to persons or property, or that the offense will continue.
The person has outstanding warrants.
A legitimate investigation or prosecution would be jeopardized by release.
The person requires physical or mental health care—one example being intoxication.
State laws generally prohibit a citation from being issued in two common scenarios:
The person refuses to sign a written promise to appear or requests to be taken before a judge.
The person does not have or will not provide valid identification, or the provided identification cannot be verified and the person is unwilling to provide fingerprints.
So, the cops clearly had an option not to arrest the men!!!!!!


And how about the option to mediate in lieu of an arrest or a citation.

Policing [101]
Quote:
3) social work model: the latent coercive power of the police can help steer potential law-breakers into law-abiding behavior...

the police and the community engage in a cooperative effort to solve neighborhood problems. participants identify the underlying causes of problems rather than simply respond to the problems themselves...

B. reduces fear of crime-fear of crime reduced by police presence...

example of discretionary decision:
to patrol an area more thoroughly, to make an arrest, to write a crime report, to stop a suspect, to commit someone to a mental health facility...

sources of police discretion
nature of the criminal law, conflicting public expectations, social and medical issues (homelessness), the work environment of policing (low-visibility work), limited police resources

number 1 factor in deciding to make an arrest or not
seriousness of the crime, strength of the evidence, preference of the victim, relationship bt victim and the suspect, demeanor of the suspect
That should be enough for you to get the picture, police have discretionary power.


It's nonsense to claim the police have no discretion to arrest or not arrest. Thank society's norms they do.


And a couple of you people owe me a take-back!!!!
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:42 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
The police actions seem typical. My wife works security. When poilice are asked to remove someone, they just do it. They don't mediate and may not even ask the reason. All that's required is "We want this person removed from our store." If you are told to leave, you are not entitled to an explanation.

I'm no fan of the police in general, but I'd put this on Starbucks, not the police.
Remove doesn't equal arrest.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:47 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I am simply outraged at what the Philidelphia Police Commisioner dared to say to defend this obviously, without a question, it's the only narrative that makes sense and if you don't agree you are obviously a racist yourself, racist officers.

Oh is that the case Mr. Ross. I do not believe you are sufficiently checking your privilege there white devil. You're obviously white, I can tell that without checking because of the narrative. You're defending your fellow white officer it is literally the only possible reason you would make a statement like that. I mean if I wrote the narrative that institutional racism was the only possible cause and he, totally hypothetically here, turned out to be black I would look preeeetty silly let me tell you what.

I'll just check to see what he looks like, you know as a formality since the narrative of white vs black is so perfect and flawless as to not be questionable.

Oh. Oh.



Well I bet he's just really tan or something.
Racism starts with biased assumptions by an individual about an individual. You can be black and still have the same biased assumptions.

It's a well documented fact that blacks are treated differently. Until the majority of white Americans admit there's a problem and discrimination is occurring on a daily basis, we'll never move this ball forward.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:51 PM   #90
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SG, are you aware that issuing a citation to a person does not physically move them to another location?
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:55 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
The police actions seem typical. My wife works security. When poilice are asked to remove someone, they just do it. They don't mediate and may not even ask the reason. All that's required is "We want this person removed from our store." If you are told to leave, you are not entitled to an explanation.

I'm no fan of the police in general, but I'd put this on Starbucks, not the police.
Do they simply call the police when they want a person removed, or do they ask the person themselves first to leave? Because that part is missing here. No store employee ever asked them to leave, according to a witness, but they called the police right away.

Hence, they weren't trespassing until the police asked them to leave.


Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Not really, at that point they were enforcing the trespass order.
Except that they weren't; as long as no store employee told them to leave, there was not yet trespassing.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Once you are told that you are being arrested for trespass it doesn't matter who you are or who turns up, the only way you're getting out of the cuffs before being removed from the location is if the person pressing the Trespass order changes their mind.
The funny thing about the video that was posted is that you see 8 minutes of interaction of half a dozen officers with the two patrons, with another patron, but there's not a single store employee in sight. The least they could have done is to ask the store manager about it, but it seems they don't.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Absolutely no disagreement from me there, the Manager is responsible for this, and need to wear the consequences.
The manager filed a false report, and should be arrested for that. Preferably on Friday 5PM, so they can be arraigned on Monday 9AM.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Actually they couldn't have, at the point of arrest then the expectation is that charges will be pressed, so they can't just release them, rather they need to go through arraignment by a court to be released on bail. In this case the charges were withdrawn by Starbucks (and rightfully so) at which point they could be released, and were. The police aren't entitled to just release arrested suspects because they feel like it.
Is arraignment really necessary? According to PA law, par. 3503 (b) (2), this trespass is a demeanor of the third degree, the lowest type of crime. Can't the police just process their identities, write up the report and then when the DA comes around to pursuing the case, send him a summons? If I read this lawyer's website correctly, that's indeed the case, and nearly everyone on misdemeanor charges is released on their own recognizance.
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Old 15th April 2018, 06:58 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
SG, are you aware that issuing a citation to a person does not physically move them to another location?
Pt, are you aware your reply does not change one word of mine?

The police should have mediated and if that failed a citation could have been given, EVEN IF neither of those occurred after the police removed the men from the store.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:23 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...it went beyond enforcing the right of the property owner to determine who could remain on the property. They were removed from the property and then promptly thrown in jail. They were only released when it was determined the "property owner" didn't want to take it any further.
Because they continued to refuse to leave private property despite being told to do so--that is the legal definition of trespassing. At that point, the police were witnesses to a crime.

I repeat, none of this is intended to excuse the conduct of the Starbucks employees in this case. In general the coffee shops that I have been to are pretty relaxed about letting people hang out.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:26 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Pt, are you aware your reply does not change one word of mine?

The police should have mediated and if that failed a citation could have been given, EVEN IF neither of those occurred after the police removed the men from the store.
I'm not sure what sort of mediation you are expecting. The Manager rang the police and asked for the men to be removed, even the witnesses agree that the police arrived and asked the men to leave, telling that if they didn't they'd be arrested for trespassing. That is the negotiation. They aren't there to try and change the manager's mind any more than they would try and change your mind to getting squatters off your lawn. The mediation is, the Manager wants you to leave, are you going to leave on your own, or are we going to have to arrest you and remove you?
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:29 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Pt, are you aware your reply does not change one word of mine?

The police should have mediated and if that failed a citation could have been given, EVEN IF neither of those occurred after the police removed the men from the store.
Tell me how this is supposed to occur, legally.
The police pick up and carry the men?
Shove them off the property?
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:32 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Because they continued to refuse to leave private property despite being told to do so--that is the legal definition of trespassing. At that point, the police were witnesses to a crime.
...as has been pointed out already in the thread, even if this fit the "legal definition of trespassing", it was only a demeanor of the third degree which normally would result in a write-up and a summons, not an overnight stay in jail. They were not just removed from the property as your post implied.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:33 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Do they simply call the police when they want a person removed, or do they ask the person themselves first to leave? Because that part is missing here. No store employee ever asked them to leave, according to a witness, but they called the police right away.
I think everyone agrees that the Manager is responsible and failed badly.

Quote:
Hence, they weren't trespassing until the police asked them to leave.
Which they did.

Quote:
Except that they weren't; as long as no store employee told them to leave, there was not yet trespassing.
The police arrested them after asking them to leave on behalf of the manager, so they were once the Police asked them to go.

Quote:
The funny thing about the video that was posted is that you see 8 minutes of interaction of half a dozen officers with the two patrons, with another patron, but there's not a single store employee in sight. The least they could have done is to ask the store manager about it, but it seems they don't.
Again, I don't think anyone disagrees that the staff handled the situation horrendously. The question is "Did the police" and by all evidence, no, they just did their job.

Quote:
The manager filed a false report, and should be arrested for that. Preferably on Friday 5PM, so they can be arraigned on Monday 9AM.
I'm not sure where you get that he filed a false report. He complained that they had two people in the shop he wanted to have removed. That wasn't false. It was dickish and extremely likely to have been racist, but it wasn't a false report.

Quote:
Is arraignment really necessary? According to PA law, par. 3503 (b) (2), this trespass is a demeanor of the third degree, the lowest type of crime. Can't the police just process their identities, write up the report and then when the DA comes around to pursuing the case, send him a summons? If I read this lawyer's website correctly, that's indeed the case, and nearly everyone on misdemeanor charges is released on their own recognizance.
Can't say, as I noted previously, I'm having to go based on what occurred and likely explanation because when I try and use Google to find answers I just get NZ Law, which is no help.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:50 PM   #98
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You guys talking about citations in lieu of arrest have got things crossed up.

If these guys had left the store as advised, and Starbucks still wanted to prosecute, it would then have been an appropriate time to issue a citation.

But, the police cannot issue a citation for a person breaking the law, and then leave them be while they continue breaking said law. That's not how it works. It is their job to stop the crime from occurring, prior to leaving. So if the guys refused to leave the premises, they are continuing to trespass, continuing breaking the law.

Thus, their only legal recourse at that point is an arrest. Loving the armchair legal theory here.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:55 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'm not sure what sort of mediation you are expecting. The Manager rang the police and asked for the men to be removed, even the witnesses agree that the police arrived and asked the men to leave, telling that if they didn't they'd be arrested for trespassing. That is the negotiation. They aren't there to try and change the manager's mind any more than they would try and change your mind to getting squatters off your lawn. The mediation is, the Manager wants you to leave, are you going to leave on your own, or are we going to have to arrest you and remove you?
So you didn't bother to read my post? Really?

Are police in New Zealand that different, and you aren't considering what I posted about US police? Or are you simply unable to consider you are wrong?

It doesn't have **** to do with the manager's position. Do you seriously think we are that class divided here in the US that someone with 'manager' or 'employee' on their name tag gives them the absolute authority over the peons at the tables?

What is wrong with you? Damn. OMFG!
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:59 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Tell me how this is supposed to occur, legally.
The police pick up and carry the men?
Shove them off the property?
Just going by the video and the scenario the cops are not racist idiots, the police could have calmly walked the men out and continued the mediation:
Cop, "I see your friend showed up. Let me go talk to the employee/manager."

Cop: "I'm going to write you a citation, let the court sort it out."
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:04 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
You guys talking about citations in lieu of arrest have got things crossed up.

If these guys had left the store as advised, and Starbucks still wanted to prosecute, it would then have been an appropriate time to issue a citation.

But, the police cannot issue a citation for a person breaking the law,
Yes they *********** can. See my posted citations!!!!!!!!!!


Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
and then leave them be while they continue breaking said law. That's not how it works. It is their job to stop the crime from occurring, prior to leaving. So if the guys refused to leave the premises, they are continuing to trespass, continuing breaking the law.

Thus, their only legal recourse at that point is an arrest. Loving the armchair legal theory here.
Oh cry me a *********** river.

If it isn't already obvious, I am appalled by the ignorance in this thread about the police options.

PROVE IT. Cite something that says the police had no options.

Or shut up and admit you might have been mistaken.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:05 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Thus, their only legal recourse at that point is an arrest.
...the only possible legal recourse they had? Really? Every police department faced with an identical scenario would have arrested these two men?

Quote:
Loving the armchair legal theory here.
Says the "armchair legal theorist".
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:06 PM   #103
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This is my favorite part:


Quote:
The two men were then allegedly told that the police would be called and allegedly responded, "Go ahead and call the police. We don't care," according to Ross's retelling of the police officers' account.

When the cops arrived at the Starbucks, Ross said, they also asked the men to leave and they again refused and one of them allegedly took a verbal jab at the cops saying, 'You don't actually know what you're doing. You're only a $45,000 a year employee," Ross stated in the video.

Ross said the men were given several chances to leave, but they kept refusing.

"On three different occasions the officers asked the two males politely to leave the location because they were being asked to leave by employees because they were trespassing," he said. "Instead the males continued to refuse as they had told the employees and they told the officers they were not leaving.
http://abc13.com/handcuffing-of-2-bl...y-ceo/3344516/
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:09 PM   #104
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My preference is that I hope Starbucks loses a lot of customers and gets some protests.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:10 PM   #105
Pterodactyl
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes they *********** can. See my posted citations!!!!!!!!!!


Oh cry me a *********** river.

If it isn't already obvious, I am appalled by the ignorance in this thread about the police options.

PROVE IT. Cite something that says the police had no options.

Or shut up and admit you might have been mistaken.

You don't know how to interpret the "citations" you posted.
Yes, a citation in lieu of arrest can be issued for a minor crime. Provided of course, that crime is not still occurring and the individual agrees at that time to stop committing said crime.

Think of any crime where this might apply and it will make sense.
Speeding?
Ok, you get caught speeding. Get stopped, Get issued a citation.
What happens if you speed away after the citation is issued?
Hint* they dont just leave you alone.
Or what if you just keep speeding and don't stop when the police tell you?
Think you just get a simple ticket for that?

Last edited by Pterodactyl; 15th April 2018 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:10 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Which they did.
My point being that the police had no business asking the two men to leave as long as the manager (or another employee) hadn't done so.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The police arrested them after asking them to leave on behalf of the manager, so they were once the Police asked them to go.
Several other patrons expressed their disbelief at the situation. The (white) friend with whom they were to meet is also seen entering the Starbucks in the video. He identifies himself as their friend and asks them what they've done wrong. At that point, yes, I think the police officers should have asked the manager what exactly his beef with these two customers was.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Again, I don't think anyone disagrees that the staff handled the situation horrendously. The question is "Did the police" and by all evidence, no, they just did their job.
I think they failed at questioning whether there was any sense to this arrest. There were five or six officers and apparently, none of them questioned the manager what the hell was wrong with these two customers that they needed to be removed.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'm not sure where you get that he filed a false report. He complained that they had two people in the shop he wanted to have removed. That wasn't false. It was dickish and extremely likely to have been racist, but it wasn't a false report.
If the manager just complained to the police that he wanted two people removed (i.e., the manager had not asked himself the people to leave), they should have plainly refused. The police is not someone's private doorman.

If the manager had complained to the police of trespass, or complained that they didn't want to leave, then it's a false report.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Can't say, as I noted previously, I'm having to go based on what occurred and likely explanation because when I try and use Google to find answers I just get NZ Law, which is no help.
I think I got that wrong; in case of an arrest there's always an arraignment. But as SG noted, the police could easily have converted it to a citation and let them go after minimal processing.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:16 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Which is why the police officers shouldn't have enforced the manager's wishes. According to witnesses, other patrons said that they had not bought anything but were apparently welcome to stay. Businesses are allowed to enforce policies but they're also not allowed to discriminate on the basis of race, gender, religion, etc. If we're going to have police enforce store policies (a questionable premise, but I'll pretend it's acceptable for the sake of argument), officers should be required to evaluate whether those policies are being legally administered.
difference being, trespassing is criminal offense, racism is civil offense.
They are more than welcome to file a civil suit against Starbucks
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:16 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh. Oh.

https://www.phillypolice.com/assets/...-Comm-Ross.png

Well I bet he's just really tan or something.
I've got an even bigger shock for you:

One of the arresting officers was also black, and I knew this before this thread was started.

Because I watched the video.

And again, I don't care. Changes nothing.

And I also knew that this argument would appear at some point, because it always does. Just like "Well you can't call the workers racist, you can't see what's in their heart" or "those black guys must have done something wrong." and " Nuh-uh, they/you're the real racist." All of these are stock responses to what is, plainly, racist on it's face, caught on video, and none of them change a thing about what happened, so you get the stock response.

"But the police chief is black!"

"So?"

Now, I said before that the police could have shown discretion, asked the manager "Are you sure about this?" once it became obvious that this would become a problem, and so forth. I see nothing to change this, and I've seen police do this before, so long as the trespasser isn't clearly acting a fool, throwing things around, screaming at other customers, and the like.

And shout out to the white folks that spoke up there - I know full well that a black person who did would likely just be the next people arrested. And no, it's not Starbucks' policy - I remember their "Race Together" campaign.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:17 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
You guys talking about citations in lieu of arrest have got things crossed up.

If these guys had left the store as advised, and Starbucks still wanted to prosecute, it would then have been an appropriate time to issue a citation.

But, the police cannot issue a citation for a person breaking the law, and then leave them be while they continue breaking said law. That's not how it works. It is their job to stop the crime from occurring, prior to leaving. So if the guys refused to leave the premises, they are continuing to trespass, continuing breaking the law.

Thus, their only legal recourse at that point is an arrest. Loving the armchair legal theory here.
No it's not. They could have detained them instead of arrested. There was no arrest needed to remove them from the store. Hence, they also didn't need to charge them with a crime.

And no, whether Starbucks wanted them prosecuted or not is immaterial. It's not their choice, but solely the discretion of the DA.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:19 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
This is my take on your cherry picking:
Quote:
In an interview with ABC News, Melissa DePino, a 50-year-old writer and mother of two, said a Starbucks barista shouted from behind the counter at the two men to make a purchase or leave. ...

In the video, both men appear calm and cooperative as they are led outside by the police officers. ...

"They didn't do anything, I saw the entire thing," said one white man, who started to question the arresting officers. "What did they do wrong?"

Clearly outraged, DePino wrote the treatment of the two men was racially unjust.

"All the other white ppl are wondering why it's never happened to us when we do the same thing," she wrote in the tweet....

After the arrests, Starbucks decided not to press charges and the Philadelphia District Attorney also declined to pursue a case against the two men, who have since reportedly retained attorneys.
I can believe this part and I can also understand why young black people would choose to take a stand:
Quote:
one of them allegedly took a verbal jab at the cops saying, 'You don't actually know what you're doing. You're only a $45,000 a year employee," Ross stated in the video.

Ross said the men were given several chances to leave, but they kept refusing.

"On three different occasions the officers asked the two males politely to leave the location because they were being asked to leave by employees because they were trespassing," he said. "Instead the males continued to refuse as they had told the employees and they told the officers they were not leaving."
It does not change my mind that the officers had the choice to direct this matter in a different direction but instead chose the direction of 'contempt of cop'.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:23 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
You don't know how to interpret the "citations" you posted.
The **** I don't. The citations I posted are as clear as a perfect quartz crystal.


Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
[snipped]
Your points don't hold up to a critical analysis.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:23 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No it's not. They could have detained them instead of arrested. There was no arrest needed to remove them from the store. Hence, they also didn't need to charge them with a crime.

And no, whether Starbucks wanted them prosecuted or not is immaterial. It's not their choice, but solely the discretion of the DA.
These men weren't "under suspicion" of a crime, they were clearly observed doing what they were reported to have been doing, and were thus, after some debate, arrested. This is standard protocol. It was hours later that they were informed that Starbucks had declined to prosecute. And they were then set free.

And in real life, the DA may not have even been aware that this any of this even occurred by the time they were released.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:25 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The **** I don't. The citations I posted are as clear as a perfect quartz crystal.


Your points don't hold up to a critical analysis.
Nice dodge ignoring that.
But Ive issued enough citations and spent enough time in court that I know exactly how this works.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:25 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
These men weren't "under suspicion" of a crime, they were clearly observed doing what they were reported to have been doing, and were thus, after some debate, arrested. This is standard protocol. It was hours later that they were informed that Starbucks had declined to prosecute. And they were then set free.

And in real life, the DA may not have even been aware that this any of this even occurred by the time they were released.
I take it you don't live in the real world where police have discretion and shop owners don't automatically rank above US citizen.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:25 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you didn't bother to read my post? Really?

Are police in New Zealand that different, and you aren't considering what I posted about US police? Or are you simply unable to consider you are wrong?

It doesn't have **** to do with the manager's position. Do you seriously think we are that class divided here in the US that someone with 'manager' or 'employee' on their name tag gives them the absolute authority over the peons at the tables?

What is wrong with you? Damn. OMFG!
They represent the owner, the owner has rules they enforced the rules.

I'm sorry but I tend to leave private property I'm told to. And lo and behold I don't get arrested. And before you ask, many times in my life I have been asked to leave places based on my appearance.

They wanted to make a big deal of it and we're in the wrong. Regardless of color that is grade a *********** stupid.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:27 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I take it you don't live in the real world.
I want to see you show his knowledge to be false. What I see is a lot of anger not logic. Live up to your sn.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:27 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I take it you don't live in the real world where police have discretion and shop owners don't automatically rank above US citizen.
Do you think you're doing well in this debate?
You have no idea what you're even talking about.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:30 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
They represent the owner, the owner has rules they enforced the rules.

I'm sorry but I tend to leave private property I'm told to. And lo and behold I don't get arrested. And before you ask, many times in my life I have been asked to leave places based on my appearance.

They wanted to make a big deal of it and we're in the wrong. Regardless of color that is grade a *********** stupid.
And woosh! over your head goes the whole concept of police discretion and mediation.

A place of business is open to the public. There is a balance between citizen's rights and private property owner's rights. You might want to look into that.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:31 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I want to see you show his knowledge to be false. What I see is a lot of anger not logic. Live up to your sn.
I posted citations. So far, no one else has posted contradictory evidence.

I'm rather proud of my skeptical POV.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:32 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Do you think you're doing well in this debate?
You have no idea what you're even talking about.
And yet another spouting of assertions that have not been backed up with anything, let alone evidence.
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