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Old 15th April 2018, 08:37 PM   #121
fuelair
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
My preference is that I hope Starbucks loses a lot of customers and gets some protests.
And I see the second part is happening already.
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:41 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And yet another spouting of assertions that have not been backed up with anything, let alone evidence.
Look, this is just sad. Five minutes of you actually looking into this before posting and you'd have not come off looking so uninformed.

Here's a decent breakdown of when an officer will make an arrest vs. issue a citation:

Quote:
Generally, a custodial arrest must be made if one or more of the factors below are present:
There are reasonable grounds to believe the person will not appear in court, or the person has previously failed to appear.
There are reasonable grounds to believe the person poses a danger to persons or property, or that the offense will continue...
There's more below.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-a...of-arrest.aspx


Note the phrasing "Must be Made" and refer back to my point about how refusing to leave constitutes continuing to trespass. Thus, this type of incident would be inappropriate for issuance of a citation. Cops did what they were supposed to do. Sorry.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:15 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
difference being, trespassing is criminal offense, racism is civil offense.
They are more than welcome to file a civil suit against Starbucks
Except that if the order to leave (which according to witnesses was issued first by police, who don't have standing by themselves to do so) was illegal, there was no trespass.

What if the initial call was made by someone who just claimed to be a Starbucks employee but wasn't?

Again, it's the responsibility of responding officers to at least minimally investigate the circumstances before handing out directives and handcuffs. Such a minimal investigation would have found no good reason for the initial call, let alone a good reason for arrest.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:20 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
These men weren't "under suspicion" of a crime, they were clearly observed doing what they were reported to have been doing, and were thus, after some debate, arrested. This is standard protocol.
What exactly were they observed of doing? Sitting in a Starbucks? Since when is that a crime? What the police officers actually observed was that they were waiting for a friend, because they saw said friend entering the store and asking them what they thought they were doing.

Starbucks has no policy that you can't just sit there without buying a coffee; in fact, the opposite as many comments here and elsewhere attest. Starbucks has also no such policy on their restroom use. In particular, that holds for that Starbucks store:
Quote:
Saahene said that a white man sitting next to her had been at the Starbucks for 30 minutes without making a purchase and a jogger came in and used the bathroom without making a purchase.

That’s one of the reasons she felt compelled to approach the employee who called 911.

“’Did you feel threatened’?” she said she asked the Starbucks barista. “She didn’t look at me. ‘Did you feel like your life was threatened?’ She still didn’t look at me.”
What a disgusting coward of a racist barista.

The police officers in question utterly failed at the most basic questioning of the situation and whether their actions were justified in the circumstances.

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
It was hours later that they were informed that Starbucks had declined to prosecute. And they were then set free.
Starbucks doesn't prosecute. The DA, and only the DA, can prosecute. That is a basic premise of criminal law everywhere. Also, in the USA and many other countries it's the sole discretion and decision of the DA whether to prosecute or not.

And you berate others for lack of legal knowledge?

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
And in real life, the DA may not have even been aware that this any of this even occurred by the time they were released.
In case of an arrest, yes, it's the DA who decides to release them.
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:26 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Note the phrasing "Must be Made"
...did you happen to notice the word "generally" at the start of that sentence?

Missing qualifiers like that is a common mistake of the "armchair legal theorist".
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Old 15th April 2018, 10:32 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Look, this is just sad. Five minutes of you actually looking into this before posting and you'd have not come off looking so uninformed.

Here's a decent breakdown of when an officer will make an arrest vs. issue a citation:

There's more below.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-a...of-arrest.aspx


Note the phrasing "Must be Made" and refer back to my point about how refusing to leave constitutes continuing to trespass. Thus, this type of incident would be inappropriate for issuance of a citation. Cops did what they were supposed to do. Sorry.
I don't know what you think you read there but it appears to be an example of blinded by confirmation bias.

I suggest you read it again, a little more slowly, maybe take notes.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:24 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I take it you don't live in the real world where police have discretion and shop owners don't automatically rank above US citizen.
It has nothing to do with rank. Shops, like homes as private property. Yes they are open to the public, but you can be be told to and forced to leave them.

From a legal point of view, a shop may not withhold a service or custom to a person based on a protected class (i.e. race, gender, sexuality, religion) but they can for plenty of other things, and the owner, or an authorised agent of the owner, you know, like a manager, can withdraw your right to be on the premise for any reason other than the above stated.

So yes, shop owners and managers can ask you to leave, and if you do not comply, the police can be called, and if you still refuse to comply, you can and most likely will be arrested and removed.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:29 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Except that if the order to leave (which according to witnesses was issued first by police, who don't have standing by themselves to do so) was illegal, there was no trespass.
The woman that videoed the incident says that the staff did tell them to buy something or leave. It seems that they were told at least three times. Once when they asked to use the restroom, once when the Barista told them to buy something or leave, and once when they were told that if they didn't leave the police would be called, at which point they allegedly replied for the staff to "call the cops, they didn't care."

The police were called twice and informed that there was a issue with trespassing and causing a disturbance.

Seems to counter your claim somewhat.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:32 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Again, it's the responsibility of responding officers to at least minimally investigate the circumstances before handing out directives and handcuffs. Such a minimal investigation would have found no good reason for the initial call, let alone a good reason for arrest.
It doesn't matter if the staff had no good reason to ask them to leave, once they didn't, that becomes a good reason for the call and the for the arrest.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:34 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The woman that videoed the incident says that the staff did tell them to buy something or leave. It seems that they were told at least three times. Once when they asked to use the restroom, once when the Barista told them to buy something or leave, and once when they were told that if they didn't leave the police would be called, at which point they allegedly replied for the staff to "call the cops, they didn't care."

The police were called twice and informed that there was a issue with trespassing and causing a disturbance.

Seems to counter your claim somewhat.
None of which changes the fact that white people in the place were loitering without purchase unmolested.

Any request to leave was almost certainly racist and thus illegal.
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:11 AM   #131
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I think the bigger picture is being missed.

Starbucks sells **** coffee. Why anyone would pay to drink it is a mystery, and selling it should be a crime.
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:29 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I am simply outraged at what the Philidelphia Police Commisioner dared to say to defend this obviously, without a question, it's the only narrative that makes sense and if you don't agree you are obviously a racist yourself, racist officers.



Oh is that the case Mr. Ross. I do not believe you are sufficiently checking your privilege there white devil. You're obviously white, I can tell that without checking because of the narrative. You're defending your fellow white officer it is literally the only possible reason you would make a statement like that. I mean if I wrote the narrative that institutional racism was the only possible cause and he, totally hypothetically here, turned out to be black I would look preeeetty silly let me tell you what.

I'll just check to see what he looks like, you know as a formality since the narrative of white vs black is so perfect and flawless as to not be questionable.

Oh. Oh.

https://www.phillypolice.com/assets/...-Comm-Ross.png

Well I bet he's just really tan or something.
lol really?

Please keep up.
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:19 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I've had that more times I can count. Refusal of entry for no obvious reason happens all the time. I don't doubt that on occasion it does have to do with skin colour (not in my case, I'm talking generally) but without evidence, who knows what goes on in these people's heads? Sometimes I've been given reasons, and those include not wearing shoes, wearing shoes, being 'on gear' (I took that as a compliment), being accompanied by someone who was apparently excessively tall, having a fight with the bouncers the night before (I'd never even been to the town before) and having an attitude. The last one was probably justified but the point is, unless clear evidence exists, this sort of behaviour happens frequently, and just because it happens to a black person - even if white people are indulging in similar behaviour without sanction - doesn't automatically mean racism.

Here's an example of actual racism; myself and a few friends, including an African guy recently arrived in the country, go to a large semi-rural Cumbrian pub for the evening. There's no trouble and the aforementioned guy, who doesn't even drink, is notable only for his excruciating politeness. At the end of the evening the landlady takes my white friend aside (he's a regular) and hisses, "What the hell do you think you're doing?" He says, "What do you mean?" She says, "Bringing a ****** into the pub!" None of us ever went back. Now that is racism.
Is that the only way you can tell if something is racist?
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:24 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
The police actions seem typical. My wife works security. When poilice are asked to remove someone, they just do it. They don't mediate and may not even ask the reason. All that's required is "We want this person removed from our store." If you are told to leave, you are not entitled to an explanation.

I'm no fan of the police in general, but I'd put this on Starbucks, not the police.
If they were removing them from the store why keep them in jail 5PM until 2 in the morning?

Once they were off the property why throw them in jail?
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:29 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
difference being, trespassing is criminal offense, racism is civil offense.
They are more than welcome to file a civil suit against Starbucks
Trespass is a criminal offence in the USA?

I am surprised.
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:41 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Is that the only way you can tell if something is racist?
No, you can also take a wild guess based on little evidence and get all outraged about it.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:07 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Unless, of course, you count the other patrons stating openly that they were behaving in the same way, and were allowed to stay.
This is how I see it as well. Lots of people loiter at places like Starbucks. I doubt that these guys would have been asked to leave if they were white.

Maybe these guys were wrong for refusing to leave, but perhaps they were defiant because of a racist attitude of the barista. I'm sure this wasn't their first time getting treated as less than.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:23 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Where is the lie?

That it isn't an actual codified policy?
It's not a policy, as you claimed, and as you know to be false. Thus you lied and now have pie on your face.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:26 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
It's not a policy, as you claimed, and as you know to be false. Thus you lied and now have pie on your face.
.... and a bum which is on fire.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:29 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So, just went to another Starbucks. I milled around, used the restroom, sat down for awhile and then left. Never ordered a thing.

No police even appeared let alone took me off to jail. How weird.
Now you need to repeat the exact same, except be black.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:36 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
None of which changes the fact that white people in the place were loitering without purchase unmolested.

Any request to leave was almost certainly racist and thus illegal.
No, while I agree it was probably racist, it's not illegal to be racist. They weren't refusing to serve them because they were black, that would be illegal. Asking them to leave because they weren't paying customers is an acceptable thing to do, even if it was done to them and not others because they were black. Arbitrarily deciding whether to enforce a policy or not, is not a human right violation.

It's like if a bar has a rule of No Shirt, No Service. They can arbitrarily allow women in without a shirt, but reject men who don't wear one because they are refusing the service for the lack of a shirt, not for being a male. If a rejected man put on a shirt, then he'd be able to get the service.

In the same way, singling these two men out as unwelcome for not being paying customers was likely racist, but it was not illegal. Had the two bought a cup of coffee or simply went and waited outside for their friend and then returned, the issue would have been solved.

The staff acted in a racist manner yes, but the two men didn't help themselves out by refusing to leave because in doing so their actions became criminal. I can fully understand their action because they felt, and were probably right, that they were being singled out for their race, but when you make such a stand, sometimes you have to die on the hill where you make it.
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Old 16th April 2018, 04:16 AM   #142
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One has to wonder why they didn't just buy a cup of coffee when it was strongly hinted that that would resove the immediate issue?
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Old 16th April 2018, 04:52 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trespass is a criminal offence in the USA?

I am surprised.
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...5.003.000..HTM
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Old 16th April 2018, 04:55 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
One has to wonder why they didn't just buy a cup of coffee when it was strongly hinted that that would resove the immediate issue?
One may also wonder why Rosa Parks didn't simply stand when asked to by the bus driver. Difference here is magnitude, but not kind.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:04 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
One has to wonder why they didn't just buy a cup of coffee when it was strongly hinted that that would resove the immediate issue?
Right? They clearly had no understanding that the privilege of loitering there only applied to the white people.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:07 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
One may also wonder why Rosa Parks didn't simply stand when asked to by the bus driver. Difference here is magnitude, but not kind.
It's nothing at all like the Rosa Parks incident. These guys were not asked to give the table up for white folks. The purchase of goods from the shop would have guaranteed them a seat irrespective of their colour.

Granted, it would be hard to make a case that there wasn't some racial discrimination afoot but if they had simply bought a cup of coffee then this would have played out completely differently. It isn't too much to ask. Is it?

I'm not saying they should have bought goods, I just find myself wondering why they steadfastly refused to do so.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:10 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Right? They clearly had no understanding that the privilege of loitering there only applied to the white people.
Thats not what I'm saying or even hinting at. Are you suggesting it was a protest?
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:19 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't know what you think you read there but it appears to be an example of blinded by confirmation bias.

I suggest you read it again, a little more slowly, maybe take notes.
Again, you employ the tactic of ignoring the substance of my post and resort to deflection.

To recap:

I explained to you why issuance of a citation would be inappropriate in this instance. You ignore it, clipping it from my post you quoted.
I explain it again, you deny and you demand a source.
I explain it yet again, and included a source spelling out very clearly what I was trying to explain, and you discount/ignore it without any justification.

Your posts/anger are there for everyone to read. I now see after conversing with you multiple times that this is your normal behavior, which is pretty sad considering you have "skeptic" in your username but refuse to accept even very basic information contrary to your viewpoints.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:38 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Sergeant:
Constable Savage, why do you keep arresting this man?

Constable Savage:
He's a villain, sir.

Sergeant:
...A villain.

Constable Savage:
And a jailbird, sir.

Sergeant:
I know he's a jailbird, Savage, he's down in the cells now! We're holding him on a charge of being caught in possession of curly black hair and thick lips!

Constable Savage:
Well there you are then sir.

Sergeant:
You arrested him, savage!

Constable Savage:
Thank you, sir.
Sergeant:
Savage, would I be correct in assuming that Mr Cudoogo is a coloured gentleman?

Constable savage:
Well, I can't say I've ever noticed, sir!


[I still think the "wearing a loud shirt in a built up area after the hours of darkness" is the best line.]
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:41 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Thats not what I'm saying or even hinting at. Are you suggesting it was a protest?
No, protests are what's happening at that Starbucks now.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:42 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
It's nothing at all like the Rosa Parks incident. These guys were not asked to give the table up for white folks. The purchase of goods from the shop would have guaranteed them a seat irrespective of their colour.

Granted, it would be hard to make a case that there wasn't some racial discrimination afoot but if they had simply bought a cup of coffee then this would have played out completely differently. It isn't too much to ask. Is it?

I'm not saying they should have bought goods, I just find myself wondering why they steadfastly refused to do so.
Let me say this again: White supremacy, as practiced in the US, is at it's heart a way to extract wealth of people of color, and give it to some white people.

This is not the same level as Jim Crow, which was a terrorist-backed caste system, but you are asking why they didn't pay money to sit where white people had been sitting for free, while this appears to come down to a foolish manager or barista. But it is, at it's heart, the same type of wealth extraction, based on the same reasoning that black = trouble, intrusive, threatening, needs to justify their presence by payment.

And that's where the answer to your question is, maybe they were tired, maybe they knew it wasn't right, maybe they simply didn't know until the police were there to eject them no matter what. Doesn't matter, they need no justification.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:43 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
People are removed from businesses after refusing to leave every day in this country. It is a typical call an officer will go on.

What makes this case any different?
If they are being ejected for a legally valid reason or not. If as has always been my experience Starbucks doesn't overly care about that kind of activity then why did they decide to eject these men? If it was because they were black that is illegal on Starbucks part. Given that they are not defending their employee it seems not unlikely this was not a legal removal.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:45 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
No, protests are what's happening at that Starbucks now.
This exchange is pointless but thanks anyway.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:48 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
This exchange is pointless but thanks anyway.
Yes, it is pointless to discuss this when privilege blinds some people to truth.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:50 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Yes, it is pointless to discuss this when privilege blinds some people to truth.
To whom do you refer? Is it me? What truth do you think I'm blind to and how have I demonstrated this?
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:50 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
All could have been avoided with a couple of signs:

"Please place your order before taking a seat."

"Restrooms for patrons only."
The latter would likely kill Starbucks in NYC, as they are the best publicly available bathrooms in the city. New Yorker's would not take losing that well.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:54 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, their job is to enforce the law. period. They might do that by mediation in some circumstances, but it's not required.



When the manager says "I want them gone from the shop" then yes the Police do have zero options.

Consider this. Several strangers set up camp on your lawn without your permission. You decide you want them off your lawn and ring the police. Do you expect the police to come and remove them from your lawn, or to convince you to let them stay?
They might well have squatters rights, but at least we have moved beyond the idea that police have some obligation to refuse illegal orders.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:56 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
From this, the Manager has to wear the issue. Sounds like something that is potentially a fireable offence I would suggest.
But at least we can agree that it is the polices job to enforce racial discrimination right, they have no way to refuse to enforce that after all.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:01 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
You guys talking about citations in lieu of arrest have got things crossed up.

If these guys had left the store as advised, and Starbucks still wanted to prosecute, it would then have been an appropriate time to issue a citation.

But, the police cannot issue a citation for a person breaking the law, and then leave them be while they continue breaking said law. That's not how it works. It is their job to stop the crime from occurring, prior to leaving. So if the guys refused to leave the premises, they are continuing to trespass, continuing breaking the law.

Thus, their only legal recourse at that point is an arrest. Loving the armchair legal theory here.
I see a lot of sit ins coming to that Starbucks. Should be good for their different polices for blacks and whites at that store. As the police enforce it for them.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:05 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I see a lot of sit ins coming to that Starbucks. Should be good for their different polices for blacks and whites at that store. As the police enforce it for them.
The race of these guys may well have been a factor. But, the police can't really know that and have to do their jobs. That's all Im arguing here.

If it's the case that some racist starbucks employee just singled these guys out due to their race, and there wasn't something else at play, I wholeheartedly agree they should be subject to all manner of protests.
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