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Old 20th April 2018, 09:48 AM   #81
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I also said in a similar post we want tests to be accurate. I want the right verdict. I hope the right verdict is a judgement for Jones because I hope people do not suffer damages.
I think we all do, just like we all hope for a negative medical test. But your analogy then falls apart. We don't all agree what the correct verdict is. I hope he is found guilt of defamation, because I believe he has defamed people who have suffered damages from his defmation.

Also, I'm going to go investigate if Vegas is taking bets on this case. Jones is going to lose, I'd bet money on it given decent odds. ETA: strike that the case is in Texas, not Conneticut as I assumed.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 20th April 2018 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 20th April 2018, 09:51 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I think we all do, just like we all hope for a negative medical test. But your analogy then falls apart. We don't all agree what the correct verdict is. I hope he is found guilt of defamation, because I believe he has defamed people who have suffered damages from his defmation.

Also, I'm going to go investigate if Vegas is taking odds on this case. Jones is going to lose, I'd bet money on it given decent odds.
I think we do agree what the correct verdict is.
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Old 20th April 2018, 10:04 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Your analogy doesn't really work. A negative medical test is not proof that you don't have a disease. False negatives occur, just like bad judgements at trial. Also, pretty much everyone wants to not have a disease, which doesn't apply to defamation trials. Not everyone wants the defendant to win.


Yes, if you're going to "hope for" something, you should be hoping for an accurate judgement (or test result). If he's guilty, he should pay up, if you're sick, you want to know it so you can get treatment.

But Jones vs. the truth is less "I hope I don't actually have cancer" and more "I hope that isn't actually a knife sticking out of my chest". The problem is so clearly obvious to an unbiased observer that "hoping" it isn't defamation/a knife in your chest is ridiculous. If you're not a Sandy Hook Truther, basically the only way Jones wins this case is if the judge rules that the victims are public persons, and as such, it's okay to defame them. And that's not an outcome any reasonable person should be "hoping" for.
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Old 20th April 2018, 10:16 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I also said in a similar post we want tests to be accurate. I want the right verdict. I hope the right verdict is a judgement for Jones because I hope people do not suffer damages.

One would think the hope would be that the right verdict is delivered whichever way it goes, no?
you seem to have a problem admitting that if they were defamed and Jones is found guilty, that would be the 'right verdict' since you insist on stating only that Jones be found not guilty would be the 'right verdict'.
you keep dancing around that.
I don't think you are alex jones so your medical analogy fails. you have no skin in the game.

Last edited by Whip; 20th April 2018 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 20th April 2018, 11:12 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
One would think the hope would be that the right verdict is delivered whichever way it goes, no?
you seem to have a problem admitting that if they were defamed and Jones is found guilty, that would be the 'right verdict' since you insist on stating only that Jones be found not guilty would be the 'right verdict'.
you keep dancing around that.
I don't think you are alex jones so your medical analogy fails. you have no skin in the game.
I have no problem saying if he defamed them he should be found guilty. I thought I did say that.

I hope to both the right verdict, and I hope that if the verdict is right, that those families were never harmed.
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Old 20th April 2018, 11:13 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Yes, if you're going to "hope for" something, you should be hoping for an accurate judgement (or test result). If he's guilty, he should pay up, if you're sick, you want to know it so you can get treatment.

But Jones vs. the truth is less "I hope I don't actually have cancer" and more "I hope that isn't actually a knife sticking out of my chest". The problem is so clearly obvious to an unbiased observer that "hoping" it isn't defamation/a knife in your chest is ridiculous. If you're not a Sandy Hook Truther, basically the only way Jones wins this case is if the judge rules that the victims are public persons, and as such, it's okay to defame them. And that's not an outcome any reasonable person should be "hoping" for.

There are other ways.

A) he never lied
B) their reputations were never harmed
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Old 20th April 2018, 11:23 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
I don't think you are alex jones so your medical analogy fails. you have no skin in the game.
My skin is a general interest of not liking to see people harmed by others. They were likely harmed by Jones (an opinion I try to avoid sharing because I don't think it is appropriate to share judgements, but it feels necessary at this point). I would really like to find out I was wrong about that and they were not harmed.
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Old 20th April 2018, 11:29 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are other ways.

A) he never lied
B) their reputations were never harmed

But both of those are objectively hugely unlikely. We're not talking about something he might say in the future, we're talking about things he has already said, over the course of years. There's no way he can claim to be ignorant of the refutations of the "crisis actor" claims, so he must have been lying (absent a claim of actual insanity on his part, a claim he has steadfastly denied for years as well), or at least aware of the possibility that it was a lie (leading to the issue of malice - he didn't care about the truth either way, so long as it played to his narrative). And their reputations have been harmed, at least in so far as actual people have already been convicted for actually issuing actual death threats to the victims of Sandy Hook.

Now, you could quibble about how much their reputations have been damaged, but the damage exists.
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Old 20th April 2018, 11:54 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no problem saying if he defamed them he should be found guilty. I thought I did say that.

I hope to both the right verdict, and I hope that if the verdict is right, that those families were never harmed.
but the verdict would still be 'right' if they were harmed and he's found guilty. this is where your word game comes into play. you only want it to be 'right' if he's found innocent.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:00 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
but the verdict would still be 'right' if they were harmed and he's found guilty. this is where your word game comes into play. you only want it to be 'right' if he's found innocent.
That makes no sense. Of course I want it right in either case. If someone says I hope the test says I don't have cancer, no one then points out that isn't true if the test is wrong.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:10 PM   #91
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but this is not about cancer or emotions. it's about a legal proceeding.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:15 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
but this is not about cancer or emotions. it's about a legal proceeding.
So? Just like those cases, saying I hope for a certain result does not imply I want that result regardless of truth.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:27 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So? Just like those cases, saying I hope for a certain result does not imply I want that result regardless of truth.
True, it means that you hope for things that we already know are not true


We do know that Sandy Hook happened
We do know that Alex Jones has claimed it was staged and has accused the parents of being actors
We do know that some of the parents have been threatened


Your hope has to be that one of those is untrue.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:28 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My skin is a general interest of not liking to see people harmed by others. They were likely harmed by Jones (an opinion I try to avoid sharing because I don't think it is appropriate to share judgements, but it feels necessary at this point). I would really like to find out I was wrong about that and they were not harmed.
I'd like to see him lose so that he'll cry again and look like a fool. And that's the least he can get. Accusing people of mass murder and feeding the hundreds of thousands of conspiracy drones in this country with propaganda is no small thing to me.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:30 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I also said in a similar post we want tests to be accurate. I want the right verdict. I hope the right verdict is a judgement for Jones because I hope people do not suffer damages.
Stop trying to sound philosophical when you can't even matter tense.

They either did our did not suffer damages. Your philosophy only functions (not makes sense mind you) when the statement uses the present tense, but we are talking of past actions.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:33 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My skin is a general interest of not liking to see people harmed by others. They were likely harmed by Jones (an opinion I try to avoid sharing because I don't think it is appropriate to share judgements, but it feels necessary at this point). I would really like to find out I was wrong about that and they were not harmed.
What about Jones?

If they have not been harmed he has. So to have any consistency you would have to hope for neither as both contain large amounts of people negatively effected.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:35 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Stop trying to sound philosophical when you can't even matter tense.

They either did our did not suffer damages. Your philosophy only functions (not makes sense mind you) when the statement uses the present tense, but we are talking of past actions.
I think they did suffer damages. I'm hoping I'm wrong about that.
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Old 20th April 2018, 01:06 PM   #98
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They have a case. The first part of a defamation case is providing documentation of Jones making the statement(s), and that won't be a problem. The trick is documenting the damage to the victims, which will mostly be emotional pain. Can they show they've lost work time? Have they been forced into extended therapy due to the false statements? Can they show permanent psychological damage?

I'm betting in this case - yes.

https://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and...he-basics.html

http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/...n-lawsuit.html
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Old 20th April 2018, 01:11 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
They have a case. The first part of a defamation case is providing documentation of Jones making the statement(s), and that won't be a problem. The trick is documenting the damage to the victims, which will mostly be emotional pain. Can they show they've lost work time? Have they been forced into extended therapy due to the false statements? Can they show permanent psychological damage?

I'm betting in this case - yes.

https://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and...he-basics.html

http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/...n-lawsuit.html
I don't understand how the first article explicitly says it hurt reputation, and brought up missing work. Is there only work time lost by reputation or emotional distress? If you skipped work because of distress, but no one at work cared because it didn't affect your reputation, is that harm for purposes of defamation?
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Old 20th April 2018, 01:53 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
And how big is the chance that he might thrown in behind bars?
In a civil suit like this one, almost none.In the US, people do not go to jail when they lose a civil case.
Only way this happens is if Jones does something really stupid during the trial, and gets tossed in the slammer for "contempt of court" or fails to obey a court order. . And even that technically is a different offense then his defamaing the Sandy Hook victims.

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Old 20th April 2018, 01:56 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
We do know that Sandy Hook happened
We do know that Alex Jones has claimed it was staged and has accused the parents of being actors
We do know that some of the parents have been threatened
As to the last, there's even a woman behind bars for issuing death threats.

How far is Alex Jones' divorce case? Have the assets already been divided? I hope so, otherwise he'll only suffer half the damage.
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Old 20th April 2018, 01:59 PM   #102
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You know, it's ironic that people get suspended or kicked off the site for some pretty minor offenses, but a guy who constanly hijacks and disrupts threads get away scot free.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:07 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You know, it's ironic that people get suspended or kicked off the site for some pretty minor offenses, but a guy who constanly hijacks and disrupts threads get away scot free.
I expressed my opinion of what I would hope to see happen at a trial for defamation here. That is the topic here.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:16 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't understand how the first article explicitly says it hurt reputation, and brought up missing work. Is there only work time lost by reputation or emotional distress? If you skipped work because of distress, but no one at work cared because it didn't affect your reputation, is that harm for purposes of defamation?
If the defamation leads to people harassing you, leaving death threats, and constantly barraging you with disgusting attacks the stress may be enough to cause you to miss work or have other health issues. I understand you personally might be too unempathetic to understand that, but the courts may decide otherwise.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:19 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
If the defamation leads to people harassing you, leaving death threats, and constantly barraging you with disgusting attacks the stress may be enough to cause you to miss work or have other health issues. I understand you personally might be too unempathetic to understand that, but the courts may decide otherwise.
It isn't a matter of understanding. The article did not state what you just wrote.

And is that defamation or incitement? The guy assaulted at the Trump rally sued for incitement, but I don't know if that was generally speaking, or a specific term in civil suits.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:56 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
If the defamation leads to people harassing you, leaving death threats, and constantly barraging you with disgusting attacks the stress may be enough to cause you to miss work or have other health issues. I understand you personally might be too unempathetic to understand that, but the courts may decide otherwise.
The major legal hurdle will be, IMHO, to prove the causality of that chain. i.e., that the death threats and barraging was caused by Alex Jones' utterances.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:02 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The major legal hurdle will be, IMHO, to prove the causality of that chain. i.e., that the death threats and barraging was caused by Alex Jones' utterances.
But do they even need to bother with defamation at that point or is that incitement?
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Old 20th April 2018, 04:50 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But do they even need to bother with defamation at that point or is that incitement?
Yes, they need to bother with defamation since it is the only legal recourse they have. Their lawyers wouldn't have filed if they didn't think they had a case.
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Old 20th April 2018, 05:32 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Yes, they need to bother with defamation since it is the only legal recourse they have. Their lawyers wouldn't have filed if they didn't think they had a case.
What makes it different from incitement?
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Old 20th April 2018, 05:54 PM   #110
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What's this thread about again?
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Old 20th April 2018, 06:06 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
What's this thread about again?
What literally everything thread on this board is about now.
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Old 20th April 2018, 06:08 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What literally everything thread on this board is about now.
This is about the lawsuit between the parents from Sandy Hook and Alex jones
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Old 20th April 2018, 07:52 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What makes it different from incitement?
Defamation is provable. Incitement requires admission from one or more CT nutcases that Alex Jones alone made them do it. Harder to prove in court, more complex, and easier to defend against.
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:13 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
They have a case. The first part of a defamation case is providing documentation of Jones making the statement(s), and that won't be a problem. The trick is documenting the damage to the victims, which will mostly be emotional pain. Can they show they've lost work time? Have they been forced into extended therapy due to the false statements? Can they show permanent psychological damage?

I'm betting in this case - yes.

https://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and...he-basics.html

http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/...n-lawsuit.html
If it were a jury trial I would happily vote for gigantic loss of fundage and prison time for any ******* conservative slime shown to give out lies and/or misleading info about any real people.
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:14 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
In a civil suit like this one, almost none.In the US, people do not go to jail when they lose a civil case.
Only way this happens is if Jones does something really stupid during the trial, and gets tossed in the slammer for "contempt of court" or fails to obey a court order. . And even that technically is a different offense then his defamaing the Sandy Hook victims.
Hope he does!!!!
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:15 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Defamation is provable. Incitement requires admission from one or more CT nutcases that Alex Jones alone made them do it. Harder to prove in court, more complex, and easier to defend against.
Thank you.
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Old 20th April 2018, 10:06 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
If it were a jury trial I would happily vote for gigantic loss of fundage and prison time for any ******* conservative slime shown to give out lies and/or misleading info about any real people.
I'd love to see Jones broke and out of his line of work.

The First Amendment make's Info Wars possible. All anyone has to do is preface any wacko charge with the word "Allegedly", and they're free to say whatever they wish. This comes from case law where accusations were made on air and in print that cost someone a lot of money. That's why you'll hear or read the words in cases where guilt is obvious because it avoids legal problems down the road.

The other escape words are "Hypothetically, and "In my opinion".

The flip-side is that there are legitimate reasons to allow this. Watergate is an example of the legitimate use of "Allegedly" to advance investigating journalism
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Old 20th April 2018, 11:08 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What literally everything thread on this board is about now.
Running into walls.
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Old 20th April 2018, 11:50 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Second ETA: I'm bad at Bayesian inference. Wouldn't a finding for Jones alter our probability that he didn't defame?
It would, but quite possibly not significantly. For example, if we are 99% sure he defamed, an acquittal might alter that to 97%.
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Old 20th April 2018, 11:56 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How? Wanting a negative test result on a medical screening is not a judgement that I don't have the disease.
Actually, it is a judgement that you don't have the desease. For if you left open the possibility, and you have the desease, then you would welcome a positive result, for it would set you on course toward proper treatment, which a false negative would not.
If already have enough information to assume you have the desease, such that a negative test result would more likely be a false negative, you will want a positive result.
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