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Old 20th April 2018, 12:33 PM   #41
Venom
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I regard the establishment Democratic Party as the lesser evil in the face of this Trump disaster and mass Republican support of his policies, but accusing Trump, Wikileaks, and Russia of conspiracy is just hysterical without some really meaty evidence. I mean two of the three I can almost see, but I won't jump to conclusions.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:36 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Meh, this is a dog & pony show.

The more cynical parts of my brain* are wondering if they don't plan the case being thrown out, in order to foster outrage and voter action for the midterms.


* My brain is now approximately 89.7% cynic.
Agreed, a dog and pony show. It's the kind of thing that both parties do;SOP in politics.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:37 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I regard the establishment Democratic Party as the lesser evil in the face of this Trump disaster and mass Republican support of his policies, but accusing Trump, Wikileaks, and Russia of conspiracy is just hysterical without some really meaty evidence. I mean two of the three I can almost see, but I won't jump to conclusions.
The bad point is if the Dems have decided that conspiracy theories are "what works" and they end up being as full of nonsense as the GOP.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:40 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Just as I feared. This may backfire tremendously.
Or it may not.

Remember, this is not just the DNC : they'll have all the resources of the Deep State at their disposal, plus the Clinton and Obama Crime Families with their global reach, GCHQ and Steele's old friends in '5 and '6. A formidable array. Get it brought in front of a female Mexican judge and it's pretty much job done.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:42 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The bad point is if the Dems have decided that conspiracy theories are "what works" and they end up being as full of nonsense as the GOP.
Who cares if it draws blood?
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:42 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
The only collusion with Russia proven beyond a reasonable doubt occurred between DNC/Hillary paying Fusion GPS who paid Steele and Winer who then received information from the Russian Spy Agency (FSB).

The point is, it's ok to collude with the Russian's, as long as there are a few degrees of separation.
Chris Steele's largely anonymous Russian sources are very questionable, as his documents read like a spy cartoon rather than real insider information in the Kremlin. And the rumors about Trump's sexual escapades in Moscow sound suspiciously like old KGB propaganda and propaganda that Vladimir Putin himself utilized as FSB director.

So there is good reason to suspect that Steele's sources were being deceptive and eventually when the DNC obtained his dossier, they thought it was true as well, unwittingly passing along a lie.

All educated guesses of course at this point, still.

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Old 20th April 2018, 01:49 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Chris Steele's largely anonymous Russian sources are very questionable, as his documents read like a spy cartoon rather than real insider information in the Kremlin. And the rumors about Trump's sexual escapades in Moscow sound suspiciously like old KGB propaganda and propaganda that Vladimir Putin himself utilized as FSB director.

So there is good reason to suspect that Steele's sources were being deceptive and eventually when the DNC obtained his dossier, they thought it was true as well, unwittingly passing along a lie.

All educated guesses of course at this point, still.
Did the DNC ever go public with a pee tape accusation or are you just mashing history up randomly?

Of course Steele's dossier is full of disinformation. It's raw intel. It isn't meant to be taken as credible all by itself. This is why Buzzfeed's dump is ultimately so counter-productive.

Also, didn't he generate this opposition research for Republican primary candidates and then later shop it to Hillary? IOKIYAR?

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

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Old 20th April 2018, 02:22 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
On one hand, you may be right in that its a waste of time/money. There are currently multiple investigations into Trump and the election.

On the other hand, seeing yet MORE legal hassles for Trump and his minions certainly brings a certain amount of joy, like when something bad happens to bad people. Schadenfreude and all. And who knows? Maybe yet another investigation will dig up evidence that the Mueller and the Cohen investigations overlooked.
I don't think this is good for the DNC. I think they need to choose their battles much more carefully. Even people who don't like Trump might get tired of all these different attacks.

What have the Democrats done to attract voters lately besides attack Trump? Maybe I'm wrong but I think the DNC is tarnishing their brand every time they do something like this. The angry spoiled brat party.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:29 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Except isn't there decent evidence that the DNC rigged their own primary against Sanders?
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
No.

But if there is, Sanders can sue, right ? So what's your point ?
Whataboutism. The literal only driving force in politics at this point.

You see if the Republicans rigged an election and the Democrats rigged an elections that... somehow proves that the Republicans didn't rig an election since Republican and Democrat misbehavior just cancel each other out.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:30 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Meh, this is a dog & pony show.

The more cynical parts of my brain* are wondering if they don't plan the case being thrown out, in order to foster outrage and voter action for the midterms.


* My brain is now approximately 89.7% cynic.
The Democrats have always only been comfortable when on the moral high ground after a loss. They always seem like they don't know what to do with themselves in any other environment.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:48 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I don't think this is good for the DNC. I think they need to choose their battles much more carefully. Even people who don't like Trump might get tired of all these different attacks.

What have the Democrats done to attract voters lately besides attack Trump? Maybe I'm wrong but I think the DNC is tarnishing their brand every time they do something like this. The angry spoiled brat party.
I think you are wrong.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:53 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think you are wrong.
Sadly though he looks like he might not be, at least in the literal political sense.

https://www.nbcnews.com/card/poll-fi...romise-n866981

Quote:
The poll from NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist shows that 47 percent of registered voters say they would definitely vote against a candidate for Congress who proposed impeaching Trump, compared to 42 percent who said they would definitely vote for that candidate. One in ten voters were unsure.
Which I why I really don't think they'll do jack squat until after the mid-terms, if at all.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:55 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I don't think this is good for the DNC. I think they need to choose their battles much more carefully. Even people who don't like Trump might get tired of all these different attacks.

What have the Democrats done to attract voters lately besides attack Trump? Maybe I'm wrong but I think the DNC is tarnishing their brand every time they do something like this. The angry spoiled brat party.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think you are wrong.
Never ending attacks and investigations against Clinton worked very well to keep the Republican base motivated, and were enough to throw some uncertainty into the minds of many middle-of-the-road people. People who didn't like Clinton never seemed to get tired of all of the attacks against her.

There's no reason to think the same tactic won't work just as well when applied by the Dems towards the Trump, especially given the number if indictments and convictions already resulting from the Trump/Russia investigation so far.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:57 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Chris Steele's largely anonymous Russian sources are very questionable, as his documents read like a spy cartoon rather than real insider information in the Kremlin. And the rumors about Trump's sexual escapades in Moscow sound suspiciously like old KGB propaganda and propaganda that Vladimir Putin himself utilized as FSB director.

So there is good reason to suspect that Steele's sources were being deceptive and eventually when the DNC obtained his dossier, they thought it was true as well, unwittingly passing along a lie.

All educated guesses of course at this point, still.
Or uneducated guesses.

Try a Google search: "How much of dossier corroborated." You might find some education there.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:00 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Chris Steele's largely anonymous Russian sources are very questionable, as his documents read like a spy cartoon rather than real insider information in the Kremlin.
We must have been reading different documents.

Quote:
And the rumors about Trump's sexual escapades in Moscow sound suspiciously like old KGB propaganda and propaganda that Vladimir Putin himself utilized as FSB director.
"Like" old KGB propaganda in what sense? How often did they use invented sex-tapes and against whom?

This sounds suspiciously like the kind of story a few drunk journalists would set going, it being the sort of story that would go around. All Steele did was report that the story was going around, which by all accounts it was. Nobody was making anything of it, and neither should any of us. Purge your mind of the pee-pee story, it's just junking up the place to no purpose.

Quote:
So there is good reason to suspect that Steele's sources were being deceptive and eventually when the DNC obtained his dossier, they thought it was true as well, unwittingly passing along a lie.
Why would they be deceptive, and why would Steele be deceived? He's not a newbie. He'll have tapped a variety of sources - in government, ex-government, journalists, businessmen - about Trump's business affairs in Russia.

Quote:
All educated guesses of course at this point, still.
You'd be advised to discard the whole Steele dossier : it really isn't important. There's been a concerted effort by Trumpists to paint it as central to the whole "Russia thing" but it's all distraction.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:03 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sadly though he looks like he might not be, at least in the literal political sense.

https://www.nbcnews.com/card/poll-fi...romise-n866981

Which I why I really don't think they'll do jack squat until after the mid-terms, if at all.
It's remarkable how polarized the outcome is. 42% definitely for and 47% definitely against makes 89% "definitely" and only 11% in the nuanced corner.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:04 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Who cares if it draws blood?
Way too "Ends Justifies the Means" for my taste.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:04 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It's remarkable how polarized the outcome is. 42% definitely for and 47% definitely against makes 89% "definitely" and only 11% in the nuanced corner.
*Shrugs* The "Tribes" have already made up their minds. Going through a Dog and Pony show will, at best, mean nothing but to a tiny faction of people.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:04 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Never ending attacks and investigations against Clinton worked very well to keep the Republican base motivated, and were enough to throw some uncertainty into the minds of many middle-of-the-road people. People who didn't like Clinton never seemed to get tired of all of the attacks against her.

There's no reason to think the same tactic won't work just as well when applied by the Dems towards the Trump, especially given the number if indictments and convictions already resulting from the Trump/Russia investigation so far.
Especially since there is a lot of evidence there is a there there. With Clinton it was mostly manufactured.

The Lawsuit names Jr, Kushner and Manafort. There is some ripe territory there for discovery under oath. Either they are going to lie or plead the 5th, neither of which looks very good.

Some legal pundit on the news said the case would have to sit behind the criminal investigation in the queue. Given all the talk about Trump's obstructionism, like I said, it's insurance if the Mueller case is shut down.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:08 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Never ending attacks and investigations against Clinton worked very well to keep the Republican base motivated, and were enough to throw some uncertainty into the minds of many middle-of-the-road people. People who didn't like Clinton never seemed to get tired of all of the attacks against her.
Indeed. The Republicans used the drumbeat strategy to good effect.

Quote:
There's no reason to think the same tactic won't work just as well when applied by the Dems towards the Trump, especially given the number if indictments and convictions already resulting from the Trump/Russia investigation so far.
It's worth a shot. I'm thinking the DNC will have the better team of lawyers ...
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:11 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Way too "Ends Justifies the Means" for my taste.
Exigent circumstances. You can clear up the mess later.

Anything which contributes to Democratic gains in November is, I think, justified. Within reasonable limits, of course.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:18 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Indeed. The Republicans used the drumbeat strategy to good effect.

It's worth a shot. I'm thinking the DNC will have the better team of lawyers ...
I think it is hilarious that some people are suggesting the DNC suit will backfire. Have they forgot that the GOP beat the mundane deleted emails drum for three years into Hillary being untrustworthy and an election of Donald Moron Trump?
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Old 20th April 2018, 07:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Or uneducated guesses.

Try a Google search: "How much of dossier corroborated." You might find some education there.
Well the idea since the Cold War was to mix truth with half-truths and non truths to muddy the whole thing up.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
We must have been reading different documents.

"Like" old KGB propaganda in what sense? How often did they use invented sex-tapes and against whom?
Actual sex tapes? Not a whole lot, but the theme is the same.

Here is one example from when Putin was FSB director in 1999:
Quote:
After he was caught on video cavorting with two prostitutes, the political survival of Russia's prosecutor general, Yuri I. Skuratov, was always in doubt--but he made sure he clawed a few of his enemies on his way out, inflicting some nasty scratches on President Boris N. Yeltsin's hide.
The funny thing is there was never any real evidence that the man in the video was him.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
All Steele did was report that the story was going around, which by all accounts it was. Nobody was making anything of it, and neither should any of us. Purge your mind of the pee-pee story, it's just junking up the place to no purpose.
Well one poster brought it up, so I wanted to break down what I think is misleading in it. Much of the British media are super eager to air a bunch of unconfirmed rumors spread by Russian exiles in Britain. FSB stooges posing as trustworthy double agents could have given Steele this information in order to throw him off.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Why would they be deceptive, and why would Steele be deceived? He's not a newbie. He'll have tapped a variety of sources - in government, ex-government, journalists, businessmen - about Trump's business affairs in Russia.
So they could discredit Trump and ignite a firestorm would be my guess. Further divide an already heavily divided country.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
You'd be advised to discard the whole Steele dossier : it really isn't important. There's been a concerted effort by Trumpists to paint it as central to the whole "Russia thing" but it's all distraction.
Yeah but there could be elements of the Russian secret services behind it, and it's good to be wary of this.
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Old 20th April 2018, 07:21 PM   #64
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Turns out the DNC successfully sued the Nixon campaign over the Watergate break-in. They won and were awarded 3/4 of a million in 1970's dollars the day Nixon resigned.

The civil suit follows a playbook the DNC successfully deployed in 1972 after Republican operatives broke into the party's headquarters in the Watergate office complex. Allies of President Richard Nixon initially dismissed the $1 million suit as frivolous, but the president's re-election campaign later settled for $750,000 on the day Nixon left office, ...
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Old 20th April 2018, 07:25 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Well the idea since the Cold War was to mix truth with half-truths and non truths to muddy the whole thing up.
What are the half-truths and non-truths in the dossier? Can you name three?
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Old 20th April 2018, 07:52 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Well one poster brought it up, so I wanted to break down what I think is misleading in it. Much of the British media are super eager to air a bunch of unconfirmed rumors spread by Russian exiles in Britain. FSB stooges posing as trustworthy double agents could have given Steele this information in order to throw him off.
Quote:
Yeah but there could be elements of the Russian secret services behind it, and it's good to be wary of this.
It's raw intel.

You're repeatedly harping on this "some of it might be intentional disinformation" thing like that's in any way remarkable.

It isn't.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:08 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
What are the half-truths and non-truths in the dossier? Can you name three?
No.
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:13 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
It's raw intel.

You're repeatedly harping on this "some of it might be intentional disinformation" thing like that's in any way remarkable.

It isn't.
Tell that to the Democrats, to CNN, to MSNBC so that their base doesn't misconstrue the available evidence.
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:19 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Tell that to the Democrats, to CNN, to MSNBC so that their base doesn't misconstrue the available evidence.
Tell it to everyone lacking an elementary understanding of international spookery who treat a document they don't understand like an episode of Jerry Springer.

That ship sailed the minute Buzzfeed blew all the limited credibility they accrued with their political division by going back to their clickbait roots.

ETA: What matters is that document, in context of a few hundred other documents that a special prosecutor (heading an investigation that was already years in the making) has access to do contain truths relevant to the matter at hand.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

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Old 20th April 2018, 10:13 PM   #70
The Great Zaganza
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I can't see any downside for the Dems for this:

the RNC is already spending more money on lawyers than ever before - this will exacerbate the drain. At some point it might become just too costly to defend Trump.
It also costs the Trump side more to defend against this then it costs the DNC to sue, since they have far fewer competent lawyers and staff in general.
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Old 21st April 2018, 12:06 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
We must have been reading different documents.

"Like" old KGB propaganda in what sense? How often did they use invented sex-tapes and against whom?

This sounds suspiciously like the kind of story a few drunk journalists would set going, it being the sort of story that would go around. All Steele did was report that the story was going around, which by all accounts it was. Nobody was making anything of it, and neither should any of us. Purge your mind of the pee-pee story, it's just junking up the place to no purpose.
Actually, Steele also stated outright that he thought the story was iffy, and that he couldn't corroborate it. Much of what he presented as solid has since been independently verified, including by the FBI itself before he Steele reported anything to them.

As to the suit: I'm no legal expert, so I don't have much to say there, except that if they have serious evidence of collaboration by Dolt 45's campaign, using outright stolen data, that sounds worth suing over.

Last edited by Mumbles; 21st April 2018 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 21st April 2018, 12:21 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Meh, this is a dog & pony show.

The more cynical parts of my brain* are wondering if they don't plan the case being thrown out, in order to foster outrage and voter action for the midterms.


* My brain is now approximately 89.7% cynic.
Is there an outrage war on now? This will end in tears.
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Old 21st April 2018, 03:49 AM   #73
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Football season ends, baseball season starts...but the legal suit season in the USA is 24/7/365!
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Old 21st April 2018, 04:55 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Way too "Ends Justifies the Means" for my taste.
It's not physical violence so if the lawsuit inflicts damage on Trump that's a good thing.
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Old 21st April 2018, 05:19 AM   #75
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Watergate actually resulted in criminal trials and convictions. A civil suit to recover damages makes perfect sense in that context. It also didn't need to carry forward a narrative of wrongdoing -- the wrongdoing was already well established through other processes.

This suit, on the other hand, seeks to recover damages for a crime that hasn't even been proven, yet.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the DNC file suit against the committee to re-elect before the criminal trials and convictions? Certainly before Nixon's involvement had been shown?

There are more parallels here then you are suggesting.
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Old 21st April 2018, 05:48 AM   #76
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I think people are getting a little blinded by the Watergate comparison.

First of all just in general we're in a radically different social and political landscape then we were in the 70s.

Secondly every single impeachment (or inevitable impeachment) proceeding in the history of the US (Johnson, Nixon, Clinton) happened when the opposite party to the President was in power.
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Old 21st April 2018, 06:00 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Tell that to the Democrats, to CNN, to MSNBC so that their base doesn't misconstrue the available evidence.
How is their base misconstruing the available evidence?

You keep describing the dossier like it was cribbed from Pravda, instead of compiled by someone trusted by the FBI to interpret Russian information and that everything in the dossier that could have been verified so far, has been.

At this point you might as well just accept there's a pee pee tape.
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Old 21st April 2018, 06:35 AM   #78
dejudge
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think people are getting a little blinded by the Watergate comparison.

First of all just in general we're in a radically different social and political landscape then we were in the 70s.

Secondly every single impeachment (or inevitable impeachment) proceeding in the history of the US (Johnson, Nixon, Clinton) happened when the opposite party to the President was in power.
The impeachment (or inevitable impeachment) of Trump has not been initiated so the "political landscape" may not be as it is now. By the time Mueller writes his report it may be after the November 2018 elections.
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Old 21st April 2018, 06:37 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Tell that to the Democrats, to CNN, to MSNBC so that their base doesn't misconstrue the available evidence.

Yes. We certainly wouldn't want any political parties or media outlets letting their base misconstrue the available evidence.

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Old 21st April 2018, 07:05 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Way too "Ends Justifies the Means" for my taste.
Right. And it’s Pursuing short term advantage at the cost of the long term. Like when it came to the nuclear option in the senate.

There has to be something material in the mueller investigation. Otherwise the dems will have done Putin’s work (destabilizing, delegitimizing the administration and spreading distrust of western electoral systems) a hundred fold.
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