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Old 16th April 2019, 07:17 PM   #761
arthwollipot
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*Sigh*

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID.

I just took a call from someone who was confused that her new emails weren't appearing in her Inbox.

I remoted to her computer and changed the sort order to show the newest emails at the top.

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Old 17th April 2019, 12:08 AM   #762
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Right, but I think that to describe the situation as us having been "trained" is a bit unfair. To extend your metaphor to possibly beyond its breaking point, as pit crew I'm not expected to know how to drive the car. Some drivers might have that unreasonable expectation, but they still know enough about how to drive a car without the pit crew holding their hand the whole time. There are other drivers on the track, and in my experience they often seek help from those drivers first, before coming to the pit crew. Those who don't are an exception, rather than standard. And this knowledge that they have is enough to get the car around the track, but it may not be enough to know exactly when they need to stop for fuel.

And to end this metaphor on a perfect analogy, sometimes F1 cars crash.
Yeah, I think we have done it to death now.
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Old 17th April 2019, 12:27 AM   #763
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
*Sigh*

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID.

I just took a call from someone who was confused that her new emails weren't appearing in her Inbox.

I remoted to her computer and changed the sort order to show the newest emails at the top.

https://i.imgur.com/XJ3Nw8n.gif
Here. Have one of these.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 17th April 2019, 12:38 AM   #764
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Here. Have one of these.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
While that is indeed a great ad, I am restricting myself to cheap-ass goon except on weekends. Incidentally, ass - also its flavour. If I'm going to drink every night at least I'm going to punish myself for doing it.
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Old 19th April 2019, 03:12 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Almost. My point was that it was literally a four-click solution.
Far to many people, though, think the R-Click is some sort of mysterious and eldritch compact with the Elder Gods for all they use it or are willing to be taught to use it.

And back when I used to be on the service desk it was always a toss up about getting them to use it, first you had to explain where it was and that yes, you could click it. Then, inevitably, for the rest of the call whenever you asked them to click and no matter how many times you emphasised "Unless I say otherwise it's a normal, L-Click" they'd be asking if it was a Left or Right click...
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Old 19th April 2019, 09:28 PM   #766
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Far to many people, though, think the R-Click is some sort of mysterious and eldritch compact with the Elder Gods for all they use it or are willing to be taught to use it.
I wonder if that means that the first computer they used was a Mac?
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Old 20th April 2019, 06:54 AM   #767
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It probably means that they learned — or were taught — the bare minimum about how to use a computer, including how to use a mouse, and thereafter have not bothered to learn more on their own.
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Old 20th April 2019, 07:45 AM   #768
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Far to many people, though, think the R-Click is some sort of mysterious and eldritch compact with the Elder Gods for all they use it or are willing to be taught to use it.

And back when I used to be on the service desk it was always a toss up about getting them to use it, first you had to explain where it was and that yes, you could click it. Then, inevitably, for the rest of the call whenever you asked them to click and no matter how many times you emphasised "Unless I say otherwise it's a normal, L-Click" they'd be asking if it was a Left or Right click...
I mouse left-handed, and have the buttons reversed. It was always fun watching someone remote in to that.
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Old 20th April 2019, 09:30 AM   #769
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I mouse left-handed, and have the buttons reversed. It was always fun watching someone remote in to that.
YEah - my work machine is setup oddly for most people. Disabled Caps Lock, menu at the side of the screen and I use a decent mouse with the acceleration cranked up.

Always fun watching others try to use it
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:37 PM   #770
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I'm a trackball user, always fun to see people struggling. Sadly I'm on my last Microsoft Explorer trackball and they don't make them any longer.
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Old 20th April 2019, 03:16 PM   #771
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm a trackball user, always fun to see people struggling. Sadly I'm on my last Microsoft Explorer trackball and they don't make them any longer.
Have you looked at Logitech? They have a handful of options for trackballs and I've always found their mice comfortable.
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Old 20th April 2019, 03:42 PM   #772
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm a trackball user, always fun to see people struggling. Sadly I'm on my last Microsoft Explorer trackball and they don't make them any longer.
I use logitech track-man and they work fine.

I also keep a mouse plugged into my work-station at work, because the track ball causes heads to implode.



Edited to add correct name and link:

This one
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:59 AM   #773
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I use logitech track-man and they work fine.

I also keep a mouse plugged into my work-station at work, because the track ball causes heads to implode.



Edited to add correct name and link:

This one
I have to use a mouse when I use someone else's computer, it's only fair and right they have to use a trackball if they want to use mine....

Over the years it's really helped people not to use my computers!
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:48 AM   #774
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Mice and trackballs. Does anyone here use the trackpad?

I don't. I hate those.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:50 AM   #775
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Mice and trackballs. Does anyone here use the trackpad?
I've got a (blissfully small) number of users who use those horrid old Logitech "ergonomic" trackballs and split keyboards.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:23 AM   #776
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The problem I had with the split keyboards is that they were based on the idea of writing standard English, not great for programming and the like that needs a lot of non standard touchtyping characters.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:28 AM   #777
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But what do I know I miss the, pardon the vulgar term, Keyboard Clit pointing devices which is seems are almost universally despised.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:34 AM   #778
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But what do I know I miss the, pardon the vulgar term, Keyboard Clit pointing devices which is seems are almost universally despised.
My new work-issued laptop has one. And it's been a lifesaver. The touchpads on these things are so sensitive that a mosquito fart in the next cubicle will scroll my mouse across three inches of screen.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:25 PM   #779
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But what do I know I miss the, pardon the vulgar term, Keyboard Clit pointing devices which is seems are almost universally despised.
Is that the little rubber eraser thing in the middle that IBM was so fond of?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:28 PM   #780
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Is that the little rubber eraser thing in the middle that IBM was so fond of?
Yeah. It was ubiquitous on IBMs, common on Toshiba's and occasionally found here and there for a while, but it's been a long time since I saw one on a new machine.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:28 PM   #781
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Is that the little rubber eraser thing in the middle that IBM was so fond of?
Yep. I always called it "the nubbin".
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Old 22nd April 2019, 01:10 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But what do I know I miss the, pardon the vulgar term, Keyboard Clit pointing devices which is seems are almost universally despised.
I had a laptop with one of those, and preferred it to the trackpad (I think that's what they're called. the rectangular thing below the keyboard that you moved your finger across to move the mouse cursor). that it also had. It took a little getting used to, but worked fine once I got used to it. I still preferred a mouse, assuming I had one with me and room to use it.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 01:15 PM   #783
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I just take my normal desktop mouse with me as I'm mostly either using my laptop at my desk in a docking station, or taking it to a meeting on site. Several people take special travelling mouses and for short walks, they seem to be an utter pain.

Mind you, I quite like the trackpad on my personal laptop at home - I don't know if it is the PC or Windows-10 but it works nicely - so much that I rarely use the touchscreen - although I do sometimes, and frequently enough that I try to use the non-existent touchscreen on my work laptop.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:44 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I mouse left-handed, and have the buttons reversed. It was always fun watching someone remote in to that.
I'm ambimoustrous. I'm strongly right-handed but I get RSI in my right wrist so quite a few years ago now I trained myself to use a mouse with my left. But whenever I remote in to someone else's computer I have to switch sides. Except on those few occasions where they're a leftie too, which are awesome.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:45 PM   #785
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yep. I always called it "the nubbin".
For me, it was always the G-spot.

'Cause it's right next to the G key.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:51 PM   #786
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Mice and trackballs. Does anyone here use the trackpad?

I don't. I hate those.
I use the trackpad when I'm on my Mac at home (the Mac Mini or the Macbook). They're pretty good once you've got a few gestures down.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:53 PM   #787
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah. It was ubiquitous on IBMs, common on Toshiba's and occasionally found here and there for a while, but it's been a long time since I saw one on a new machine.
Current Dell Latitudes have them.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:21 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm ambimoustrous. I'm strongly right-handed but I get RSI in my right wrist so quite a few years ago now I trained myself to use a mouse with my left. But whenever I remote in to someone else's computer I have to switch sides. Except on those few occasions where they're a leftie too, which are awesome.
Yes, that's why I do it too. None of the doctors or ergonomic experts I saw ever suggested it. But since I switched, I've gone from over-use of naproxen sodium and a splint on my right hand every night, to barely noticing I ever had CTS. The main symptom now is a numb thumb while driving.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:23 PM   #789
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Current Dell Latitudes have them.
So they have. Just opened the lid on one of the newer models, 7490, we have around here and saw one. Pretty much always use it in a dock with KB and mouse so hadn’t noticed.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:39 PM   #790
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yes, that's why I do it too. None of the doctors or ergonomic experts I saw ever suggested it. But since I switched, I've gone from over-use of naproxen sodium and a splint on my right hand every night, to barely noticing I ever had CTS. The main symptom now is a numb thumb while driving.
Have you tried one of these? I used one for several years and never had any pain. It was, by far, the best mouse I have ever used.
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Old Yesterday, 12:19 AM   #791
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yes, that's why I do it too. None of the doctors or ergonomic experts I saw ever suggested it. But since I switched, I've gone from over-use of naproxen sodium and a splint on my right hand every night, to barely noticing I ever had CTS. The main symptom now is a numb thumb while driving.
That's odd. It's actually one of the first things I suggest to people and it's quite obvious when explained. A standard keyboard with a numeric keypad on the right means that, with your index fingers resting on f and j* you have a greater reach across the right to use a mouse than you would on the left.
On the remote chance you find a copy in a used book store I can strongly recommend Linden's "Compute in Comfort". Instead of the usual rote recommendation he tries to teach you how to listen to your body telling you how it wants to move. Maybe ask your library?

*That's why f&j have little bumps on them for those who don't know. Touch typing.
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Old Yesterday, 07:22 AM   #792
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I mouse left-handed, and have the buttons reversed. It was always fun watching someone remote in to that.
Must be difficult, having to do a job on a computer with different settings. What strategies did you develop, to make the process smoother? Did you just warn them as they were remoting in? Or did you find there were additional things you or they could do to make their job easier?
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Old Yesterday, 07:38 AM   #793
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Must be difficult, having to do a job on a computer with different settings. What strategies did you develop, to make the process smoother? Did you just warn them as they were remoting in? Or did you find there were additional things you or they could do to make their job easier?
I DID warn them. It usually didn't penetrate until about the third time I told them. I was never very impressed with the computer support people at Boeing. I'd guess most of them were probably employed by third parties who got them off the street and trained them for a week before sending them in, because that's the way Boeing liked to do things.
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Old Yesterday, 08:44 AM   #794
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The PC support staff at HSBC were similar and obviously followed scripts based on standard software for clerical staff. I supported and wrote specialized tools for IT ops and still was supposed to go through them. I had more authority on some of the bank's most critical servers than I did on my developer laptop. Some of the scripts obviously did not cover the existence of dual monitors which was amusing the first few times.
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Old Yesterday, 09:28 AM   #795
CORed
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've got a (blissfully small) number of users who use those horrid old Logitech "ergonomic" trackballs and split keyboards.
If those are the ones I think you're talking about. I hate them. For one thing, I find a trackball a a lot more awkward to use than a mouse, but to make matters worse, I am left handed and all of the "ergonomic" trackballs I have seen are only usable with the right hand. The ones I'm thinking of are made to have the ball operated by the thumb and the buttons by the index and middle fingers. For me, rotating a ball with my thumb is much more awkward and less intuitivethan moving a mouse on the desk with my arm, and then to have to do it right handed is a recipe for rapid muscle fatigue.

I never cared for "ergonomic" mice either. Most of those are also right handed. What I find easiest to use is a fairly small, symmetrical mouse.
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Old Yesterday, 10:09 AM   #796
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I am also left-handed, but I use a mouse or trackball right-handed.

I used to have a trackball with a ball about the size of a small orange. That was the best pointer controller I have ever used, but I don't think they're available now. The little ones with the thumb ball are useless for me.

My current mouse is a wired five-button mouse from Dynex, which was apparently a Best Buy house brand. All their products appear to be discontinued. It has a left and right button that emulates the forward and back arrows on the keyboard, so it's easy to return to the previous page on a website without moving the mouse.

I like it so much that I bought a used one on eBay, just to have a backup.
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Old Yesterday, 11:15 AM   #797
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Far to many people, though, think the R-Click is some sort of mysterious and eldritch compact with the Elder Gods for all they use it or are willing to be taught to use it.

And back when I used to be on the service desk it was always a toss up about getting them to use it, first you had to explain where it was and that yes, you could click it. Then, inevitably, for the rest of the call whenever you asked them to click and no matter how many times you emphasised "Unless I say otherwise it's a normal, L-Click" they'd be asking if it was a Left or Right click...
My experience is that the higher the anxiety, the more they want you to tell them, I try to say 'select' when they should left click.
It doesn't always works, but it helps. I have had people who wanted me to say which click each time as well...
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Old Yesterday, 12:13 PM   #798
Mongrel
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
My experience is that the higher the anxiety, the more they want you to tell them, I try to say 'select' when they should left click.
It doesn't always works, but it helps. I have had people who wanted me to say which click each time as well...
Oh, it's been years since I had to do proper support.
I'm kind of, unofficial, first line in my team at work and I do the family stuff over Teamviewer but that's about it.
I got out of anything customer facing\interaction 15 years ago and have never regretted it, but yes I remember the little workarounds for getting the customers to do what we needed them to do
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Old Yesterday, 05:53 PM   #799
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I DID warn them. It usually didn't penetrate until about the third time I told them. I was never very impressed with the computer support people at Boeing. I'd guess most of them were probably employed by third parties who got them off the street and trained them for a week before sending them in, because that's the way Boeing liked to do things.
I've found that if I'm remoteing to a person with a left mouse, they usually let me know. My response is "Great! That means I don't have to swap sides."
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Old Yesterday, 05:56 PM   #800
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
My experience is that the higher the anxiety, the more they want you to tell them, I try to say 'select' when they should left click.
It doesn't always works, but it helps. I have had people who wanted me to say which click each time as well...
I definitely have some specific language tricks that I use with people who seem to have less knowledge of computers. For example, I don't refer to the "Start Button". Because it doesn't say "Start" any more. It used to in earlier versions of Windows, so that's how we all commonly refer to it, but with the callers I'll call it the "Windows Button" because they may not have that historical knowledge. I call it a "computer" rather than a "workstation" or a "PC". I ask for their computer's "asset number" rather than the "workstation ID" or "machine name". Stuff like that. It just makes things smoother.
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