ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 15th September 2017, 05:47 PM   #1
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,161
Woman stabs boyfriend after allegedly catching him molesting her daughter

A Cleveland woman alleges she stabbed her boyfriend after she walked past her 12-year-old daughter's room and saw him naked on top of her. The stabs were with a small pocket knife; the man was injured and taken to the hospital where he was treated and released to police custody. He is facing felony rape charges. The woman is not being charged.

The man told police in the hospital that his girlfriend attacked him because she imagines that her daughter has "feelings for him"; but the younger daughter confirmed to police that he had touched her and taken her clothes off, before undressing himself, and then assaulted her to show her "what it's like when you have a boyfriend". The daughter also reported that it's not the first time he's molested her.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002

Last edited by Checkmite; 15th September 2017 at 05:48 PM.
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2017, 07:55 PM   #2
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 13,172
Okay.

Is there some issue or controversy here? It comes across to me as "bank robber arrested and charged for robbing bank."
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2017, 08:07 PM   #3
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,579
The Robert Ruark book comes to mind:

Use Enough Gun.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2017, 08:13 PM   #4
wasapi
Illuminator
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,669
I read about this earlier today. She may be charged, but I doubt too much would come of it. It is difficult to do anything but feel sympathetic towards her. However, the law doesn't work that way.
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 01:54 AM   #5
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,137
I hope she gets off. He was caught red handed sexually attacking the daughter and you should be able to defend another person. The prosecution would have to show excessive force was used.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 02:04 AM   #6
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,394
I read an article about a man in China who was caught red-handedly tipping over a rice bag.

Sent from mobile phone through Tapatalk
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 04:51 AM   #7
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,174
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I read about this earlier today. She may be charged, but I doubt too much would come of it. It is difficult to do anything but feel sympathetic towards her. However, the law doesn't work that way.
I can see why she would be arrested but if her story checks out I'd doubt any prosecution would follow.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 11:39 AM   #8
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,766
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I hope she gets off. He was caught red handed sexually attacking the daughter and you should be able to defend another person. The prosecution would have to show excessive force was used.
I would have thought that jury nullification would save her if it ever went to trial.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 12:04 PM   #9
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,862
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I would have thought that jury nullification would save her if it ever went to trial.
What jury wold convict her for stopping a serious assault on her child.
__________________
"I have no clue" - King of the Americas
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 01:29 PM   #10
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,941
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I would have thought that jury nullification would save her if it ever went to trial.
Sure, if enough people are aware of their rights to nullify; there are many, many cases where jurors don't understand their position well enough to make an informed decision and that's when a travesty of justice usually occurs.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 01:39 PM   #11
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,642
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
A Cleveland woman alleges she stabbed her boyfriend after she walked past her 12-year-old daughter's room and saw him naked on top of her. The stabs were with a small pocket knife; the man was injured and taken to the hospital where he was treated and released to police custody. He is facing felony rape charges. The woman is not being charged.
Sounds right to me.
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 05:12 PM   #12
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,678
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Sure, if enough people are aware of their rights to nullify; there are many, many cases where jurors don't understand their position well enough to make an informed decision and that's when a travesty of justice usually occurs.

Its the job of the defence to make sure they do understand.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 06:23 PM   #13
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its the job of the defence to make sure they do understand.
Judges can prohibit the defense from making that argument.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 07:07 PM   #14
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,678
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Judges can prohibit the defense from making that argument.
Its a constitutional right for Jury Members to be allowed to know their rights. If a judge did that, he/she would be thumbing her nose at the US Constitution, and would be liable to severe sanction.

As a defence lawyer, I would be making it part of my closing statement. If stopped, I would argue wih the judge that the jury has a right to know their constitutional rights, and the very fact that were were arguing them, would make it clear to the jury that they had those rights.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2017, 10:29 PM   #15
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,941
In the United States, the defense counsel is barred from talking about jury nullification in respect to any specific trial. An attorney could give lectures in various venues, for example, or write papers, but could not talk about it with a current case.


Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its a constitutional right for Jury Members to be allowed to know their rights. If a judge did that, he/she would be thumbing her nose at the US Constitution, and would be liable to severe sanction.
You're right with all points. But judges thumb their nose at the constitution all the time. It's a case of doing something long enough, no matter how idiotic or illegal, and good luck in ever getting it changed, sad that it is.


Quote:
As a defence lawyer, I would be making it part of my closing statement. If stopped, I would argue wih the judge that the jury has a right to know their constitutional rights, and the very fact that were were arguing them, would make it clear to the jury that they had those rights.
You would be sanctioned and possibly even dis-barred if you did that in the US. I do agree with you, however; I would do exactly as you described, but I'd also keep reminding the judge that it's not HIS courtroom (or HER) but THE PEOPLE'S courtroom if they ever forgot their place.

Which would mean I'd be spending more time in jail for contempt than I ever would in actual trial. This is the reason I cite for when I ever explain why I never became an attorney years ago (just saying as an aside).

Last edited by The Norseman; 16th September 2017 at 10:30 PM.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2017, 01:27 AM   #16
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,434
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I read about this earlier today. She may be charged, but I doubt too much would come of it. It is difficult to do anything but feel sympathetic towards her. However, the law doesn't work that way.
My guess is that in the UK she would be interviewed under caution. In the UK this does not require one to be formally arrested although if found with a knife and having stabbed someone likely she would be. Almost certainly the crown would decide it was not in the public interest to pursue a prosecution given it was in the heat of the moment / defending her child. (If she had pursued him when he was running away and stabbed him, prosecution would likely follow, the jury might well not convict if the events were proximate.)
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2017, 02:22 PM   #17
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,161
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
My guess is that in the UK she would be interviewed under caution. In the UK this does not require one to be formally arrested although if found with a knife and having stabbed someone likely she would be. Almost certainly the crown would decide it was not in the public interest to pursue a prosecution given it was in the heat of the moment / defending her child. (If she had pursued him when he was running away and stabbed him, prosecution would likely follow, the jury might well not convict if the events were proximate.)
In the US it's not so much a matter of discretion; stopping a felonious assault on another person (which rape certainly counts as) is a positive defense for using deadly force almost everywhere in the country so far as I'm aware. I don't think the girlfriend was in danger at any time of being charged for this incident. And if she was, that almost certainly ended as soon as the daughter corroborated the rape.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002

Last edited by Checkmite; 17th September 2017 at 02:24 PM.
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2017, 02:28 PM   #18
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,862
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Sure, if enough people are aware of their rights to nullify; there are many, many cases where jurors don't understand their position well enough to make an informed decision and that's when a travesty of justice usually occurs.
Is there a right to nullify codified some where? Juries just do it, as in OJ Simpson's case.
__________________
"I have no clue" - King of the Americas
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2017, 02:43 PM   #19
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,161
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Is there a right to nullify codified some where? Juries just do it, as in OJ Simpson's case.
I don't think that it's ever been enumerated anywhere as a "right" - and I'm sure the justice system would never want to seem to condone or legitimize the practice by addressing it; in fact I think attorneys during a trial in the US can be punished for saying anything that could be construed as suggesting nullification to the jury. It's just an unspoken-of but unavoidable possible consequence of the jury system.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2017, 06:41 PM   #20
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,666
You don't serious think she is going to be charged? If she had killed him with a knife, I think any sensible prosecutor would call it justifiable homicide.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2017, 11:26 PM   #21
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,941
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Is there a right to nullify codified some where? Juries just do it, as in OJ Simpson's case.
It's been a long time since I've studied it specifically, but from what I remember, it's well-entrenched in common-law, though not without some controversy here and there of course; but there is no specific law though that says "juries can nullify." It's based on the concept that juries have the ability to be the trier of fact as well as the trier of law. Opponents claim that the trier of law is only found in the judge and that the jury is limited to being the trier of fact for that particular case.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 08:52 AM   #22
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,115
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Is there a right to nullify codified some where? Juries just do it, as in OJ Simpson's case.
No, there is no jury-nullification "rule." It is, essentially, a bug in the system. Juries are allowed to vote to acquit, and strictly speaking, they can do so for pretty much any reason. Sometimes, this might be because they disagree with the law. In others, it might be because of racism, as has happened many times with lynching cases in the past.

However, there are certain cases where judges have overturned the verdict of a jury. I don't know the precise rules surrounding this, or if it's allowable for acquittal.
I Am The Scum is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 11:36 AM   #23
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 7,402
My initial reaction is, too bad she didn't have a bigger knife or a gun. If it's as reported, I don't think the mother did anything wrong.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 02:38 PM   #24
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,329
Can't see charges being laid. Unless evidence appears to contradict the mother and daughter's claims, then it's a clear case of Defence of Another, fully allowable under US Law. Rape and attempted Rape are one of the situations that deadly force is allowed, and since he didn't die there is not even a worry on that front.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 06:29 PM   #25
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,698
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Okay.

Is there some issue or controversy here? It comes across to me as "bank robber arrested and charged for robbing bank."
This^^^^^^^^^^^^but she needed a bigger knife and a slicing off of the offending parts. His heads - little one first, then the big one.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 08:03 AM   #26
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,315
On the topic of Jury Nullification I recommend the RadioLab story Null and Void. It's a good listen.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 08:14 AM   #27
Cleon
King of the Pod People
 
Cleon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,141
If she'd had a gun she wouldn't have needed to stab him so many times.
__________________
"People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich
Cleon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 08:52 AM   #28
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,698
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Sure, if enough people are aware of their rights to nullify; there are many, many cases where jurors don't understand their position well enough to make an informed decision and that's when a travesty of justice usually occurs.
If I am ever on a jury, they will know about jury nullification (if I think it appropriate to tell them about it!!!!!).
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 08:54 AM   #29
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,698
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its the job of the defence to make sure they do understand.
In most places the lawyers are not allowed to mention/describe jury nullification.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 01:04 PM   #30
CriticalThanking
Designated Hitter
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On in memory
Posts: 3,042
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
If she'd had a gun she wouldn't have needed to stab him so many times.
Hmm... stabbing with a gun is better than stabbing with a knife? Never tried it.
CriticalThanking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 01:06 PM   #31
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Somewhere between the central U.S. and Hades
Posts: 11,507
Originally Posted by CriticalThanking View Post
Hmm... stabbing with a gun is better than stabbing with a knife? Never tried it.
Bayonets
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 01:22 PM   #32
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,698
Just for fun: http://www.dogpile.com/dogpilecontro...ed+bayonet&ql=
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 01:43 PM   #33
Cleon
King of the Pod People
 
Cleon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,141
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Bayonets
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
"People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich
Cleon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2017, 12:12 AM   #34
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
If she'd had a gun she wouldn't have needed to stab him so many times.
Although if she used a gun, she could have accidently shot her daughter, plus the added trama of having someone die on top of her.

Her defense against child rape was justified.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2017, 09:15 PM   #35
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,698
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Although if she used a gun, she could have accidently shot her daughter, plus the added trama of having someone die on top of her.

Her defense against child rape was justified.
Rape period!!!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:22 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.