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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:24 AM   #281
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Seriously? They couldn't hear 6 people running up to them shouting and you think they will understand sign language?
Yes, they can't hear under high stress, but they are focused on the suspect with their eyes.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:26 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I put myself in their situation. If I had a gun and believed someone was it to seriously harm me, what would I do?

I'd the person is unarmed I'd accept waiting till the person threw a blow, but once a weapon is in the mix I wouldn't be taking any chances.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And with "go prone", you mean: go lie flat on the ground, limbs stretched out. And don't lift up a single hand, because then you still get shot.

Personally, I think that's dehumanizing, and even the Gestapo was not so demeaning of the people it interacting with in public. And the SS let the people it executed still stand or sit on their knees.

What your suggestion amounts to is a fascist police state.
"Land of the free"! Americans love their freedoms.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:29 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I also don't understand why fire fighters often risk their lives merely to save easily replaceable property. I wish they wouldn't.
That comment appears to explain a lot. It suggests you are very risk averse. I take it you would rather people did not ride motorcycles or go rock climbing? Genuine question.

I am happy to take risks, but what I do is control those risks. So I wear all my gear all the time when I go out on my motorbike. I was also happy to be a cop and use my training, body armour, officer safety equipment and deal with people armed with all sorts of weapons (I was never directly threatened with a gun, but I did have one pulled out in front of me).

The problem is that in the USA people who are risk averse get to be cops. In the UK, if it was found out you were risk averse, you would not get to be a cop.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:31 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I wish you'd stop that. You keep reinterpreting events.

If the suspect merely walked towards the officers, then the officer who fired his gun is a murderer, full stop.

We seem to have left something out, though.
I haven't reinterpreted. You are the one bringing up "Why should the cop engage in a fight with a man with a metal club* and risk serious injury or death trying to subdue him?". Which isn't what happened.

He "ambled" towards them holding what they thought at that time was a stick. He didn't threaten them or shout or lunge with the stick. He just didn't do as he was told.

Why have police at all if they are just going to shoot at the merest paranoid fantasy of an attack? If they're that scared they shouldn't leave the house.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:35 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yes, they can't hear under high stress, but they are focused on the suspect with their eyes.
This was not a high stress situation. It was a man with a stick. If that is so high-stress that they go into panic mode they are not fit to have a gun.

Not all deaf people know sign language but the articles say he was waving his hands so maybe he was signing. Didn't help.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:44 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Even my telescopic walking stick doesn't extend that far.

Dave
You have to remember that the average Mexican is a majestic, agile beast who uses their powerful hindquarters to leap upwards of 30 feet in a single bound, tackling their prey before tearing it apart with their massive talons, and then devouring the flesh in their massive, fang-filled maws.

They also use high-pitched vocalizations as a type of "sonar" with which they find their prey. But alas, this specimen was deaf so he was effectively blind as well. Poor creature.

/attenborough
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:50 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
This was not a high stress situation. It was a man with a stick. If that is so high-stress that they go into panic mode they are not fit to have a gun.

Not all deaf people know sign language but the articles say he was waving his hands so maybe he was signing. Didn't help.
I no longer know what happened at all, apparently.

It seems to keep changing with every other post.

I'll just wait a few days until I can figure out if the police were even there or not.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:52 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That is, however, something quit different from Sanchez, the subject of this thread, who is said to have developmental disabilities.
"Mental illness" and "mental disability" and "developmental disability" can sometimes be interchangeable terms or synonymous.

You mention that Sanchez is said to have developmental disabilities. Right now I can find articles saying that people who know him describe it as "mentally disabled" and "mentally challenged".
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:01 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I also don't understand why fire fighters often risk their lives merely to save easily replaceable property. I wish they wouldn't.
If you're going to introduce red herrings, perhaps you'd better A/ do it in an appropriate thread, and B/ back up your claim. I think you're wrong.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:08 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
If you're going to introduce red herrings, perhaps you'd better A/ do it in an appropriate thread, and B/ back up your claim. I think you're wrong.
I withdraw it as irrelevant.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:32 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Prove it was a pipe. Prove he was waving it. Prove he knew they were police.
This is weird style of argument. I have no more access to factual information than you do. The police say it was a metal pipe. The police and witnesses say he was waving it. I believe I read that uniformed police arrived in marked cars and parked right at the front street or drive.

Quote:
And even if you happen to be right about all three of the above, "not being cool" in the eyes of a policeman is no reason.....absolutely no reason at all........to end up getting killed by that policeman.
There are certainly degrees of uncool situations. This here seems to be uncool because he was waving a pipe while walking towards the cop. Another uncool thing would be for a person to bark like a dog instead of answering questions but that's a lesser degree than the pipe waving approach.

Quote:
As Nessie asks, are you and your countrymen convinced that this general situation (police killing the populace in huge numbers with virtually no come-back) is the best way of being policed? Because to outsiders, it looks like you are being occupied by a brutal armed invader.
I can't speak for other people but there certainly would be Americans who would agree with all of your thoughts. We have a pretty big problem with violent crime in America and it seems to have an effect on some cops. It is primarily civilian on civilian but also includes civilian on police and police on civilian.

It isn't the best way of being policed now. We have some cops who really are bad. We have some cops who are good but make a bad decision.

IMO, the Taser is the thing to use in a Sanchez situation. One cop did that (though it didn't work). Another cop shot and killed him. IMO, that second cop should have also used a Taser. I don't know if he had one but IMO they should be mandatory.

I'm curious what the two cops have to say about what happened and why they did what they did. I also understand that there are people here who probably have no real interest in what they say because it doesn't matter - you don't shoot in a Sanchez situation - full stop.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:42 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I no longer know what happened at all, apparently.

It seems to keep changing with every other post.

I'll just wait a few days until I can figure out if the police were even there or not.
Where has it changed?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:48 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This is weird style of argument. I have no more access to factual information than you do. The police say it was a metal pipe. The police and witnesses say he was waving it. I believe I read that uniformed police arrived in marked cars and parked right at the front street or drive.
It isn't weird at all. You are just spouting the police line. They have a vested interest in people thinking he was carrying a weapon and that he was "waving it". You also operate under the assumption that a deaf and mentally-challenged individual, in the dark, knew who was invading his (family's) property. If, for instance, the officers were backlit by their own vehicle headlights, then it is perfectly possible that no-one in the unfortunate man's situation would have been able to see who was confronting him.


Quote:
There are certainly degrees of uncool situations. This here seems to be uncool because he was waving a pipe while walking towards the cop. Another uncool thing would be for a person to bark like a dog instead of answering questions but that's a lesser degree than the pipe waving approach.
Again, assumption is the mother of all ****-ups. You are spouting the police line that he was waving a pipe at them. How about re-phrasing it as "ambling towards the invaders, using sign language"? Does that change your perspective?


Quote:
I can't speak for other people but there certainly would be Americans who would agree with all of your thoughts. We have a pretty big problem with violent crime in America and it seems to have an effect on some cops. It is primarily civilian on civilian but also includes civilian on police and police on civilian.
One of the violent crimes you have a massive problem with is that you have a nationwide gang of armed thugs who terrorise the populace, and kill them in literally hundreds, even thousands, every year, and yet seem to be above the law. You give them a badge, and you give them carte-blanche.

Quote:
It isn't the best way of being policed now. We have some cops who really are bad. We have some cops who are good but make a bad decision.
How about a system where every time a policeman discharged their weapon they would have to face an inquiry in front of an independent body?

Quote:
IMO, the Taser is the thing to use in a Sanchez situation.
No. Not even that. De-escalate. Step back. Talk. Try to calm everyone down. Find out what is going on. Act as though you are on the side of the population, rather than an oppressor. At no stage should a weapon have even been in their hand, let alone used.


Quote:
I also understand that there are people here who probably have no real interest in what they say because it doesn't matter - you don't shoot in a Sanchez situation - full stop.
Correct. 100%. Only in America would anyone be supporting the police in this matter. American exceptionalism: it's beyond bizarre.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:18 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
...... We have a pretty big problem with violent crime in America ......
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...me-in-the-u-s/

"Violent crime in the U.S. has fallen sharply over the past quarter century. There are two commonly cited measures of the nation’s crime rate. One is an annual report by the FBI of serious crimes reported to police in approximately 18,000 jurisdictions around the country. The other is an annual survey of more than 90,000 households conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, which asks Americans ages 12 and older whether they were the victims of crime in the past six months (regardless of whether they reported those crimes to the police or not). Both the FBI and BJS data show a substantial decline in the violent crime rate since its peak in the early 1990s."

http://www.newsweek.com/how-many-ame...ch-year-480712

"...a comparison of just these 28 “complete” states should give us a true indication of the frequency of police killings over time, in at least half the country. What it shows is alarming and incredible: a steep and steady increase from 359 police killings in 2000 to 739 in 2015"

Violent crime has been dropping, but the police are shooting dead more and more people. So far, the number shot in 2017 is 715 (Washington Post tracking) so well on the way to beating the 2015 figure.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:18 PM   #295
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According to the WAPO, police in the USA shot and killed 715 people to date in 2017.

403 had a gun
113 had a knife
69 used a vehicle as a weapon
20 had a toy weapon
42 had other weapons
32 were unarmed
36 are unknown

So 647 out of the 715 had some sort of weapon.

That leaves 68 police killings for the year that we could say were totally unjustified.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hootings-2017/
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:22 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Violent crime has been dropping, but the police are shooting dead more and more people.
So, its working?

/s
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:25 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
According to the WAPO, police in the USA shot and killed 715 people to date in 2017.

403 had a gun
113 had a knife
69 used a vehicle as a weapon
20 had a toy weapon
42 had other weapons
32 were unarmed
36 are unknown

So 647 out of the 715 had some sort of weapon.

That leaves 68 police killings for the year that we could say were totally unjustified.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hootings-2017/
As someone who sometimes carries a weapon in an open carry state, I don't feel like these stats make me feel any safer. Remember: carrying a weapon, toy or otherwise, is not illegal in many parts of the US.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:25 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
According to the WAPO, police in the USA shot and killed 715 people to date in 2017.

403 had a gun
113 had a knife
69 used a vehicle as a weapon
20 had a toy weapon
42 had other weapons
32 were unarmed
36 are unknown

So 647 out of the 715 had some sort of weapon.

That leaves 68 police killings for the year that we could say were totally unjustified.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hootings-2017/
If only it were that simple. In the hands of an expert, hands can be deadly, as can a rolled up newspaper or a spoon. In the hands of a drunk or elderly person, a metal pipe can be easily avoided or dealt with without resorting to use of a gun. It just takes some training, confidence and balls. Qualities that amazingly, are not expected of US police officers.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:25 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yes, they can't hear under high stress, but they are focused on the suspect with their eyes.
But the civilian should be able to interpret what the cop wanted?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:26 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
So, its working?

/s
I have yet to see anyone claim the link is causal
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:28 PM   #301
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Deleted. Thought better of it......
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:32 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
According to the WAPO, police in the USA shot and killed 715 people to date in 2017.

403 had a gun
113 had a knife
69 used a vehicle as a weapon
20 had a toy weapon
42 had other weapons
32 were unarmed
36 are unknown

So 647 out of the 715 had some sort of weapon.

That leaves 68 police killings for the year that we could say were totally unjustified.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hootings-2017/
Why are you assuming all of the people with weapons threatened the cops with them(
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:33 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
But the civilian should be able to interpret what the cop wanted?
OK, so now he could not recognize uniformed police officers pointing pistols and tasers at him.

I'm adding that to the facts of the story.

Was that related to his developmental problem/mental problem?
Or was it a vision problem?

If he was deaf, was he unable to sign or indicate his deafness to people?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:38 PM   #304
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How are they going to cope in Texas?

In the right hands, a sword is extremely deadly while still within it's sheath. A skilled exponent is able to draw and cut in one, astonishingly quick, movement making even a sheathed weapon a threat to any officer that gets within four or five feet.

- Officers arrive at door
- knock
- man with sheathed Katana answers and is shot. He is an intimidate and severe threat and his calm demeanor could only be masking his intention to strike, just like ambling towards someone can (apparently) be interpreted as a subtle method of closing distance to attack.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:39 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Why are you assuming all of the people with weapons threatened the cops with them(
IIRC the WAPO doesn't count it as weapon involved unless it actually was.

You would need to find their methodology to be sure.

They are doing their own data compiling, IIRC.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:42 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
IIRC the WAPO doesn't count it as weapon involved unless it actually was.

Based primarily on the officers report?

The definition of 'threatening' seems, at least in the case currently under discussion, to be a point of contention.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:43 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
OK, so now he could not recognize uniformed police officers pointing pistols and tasers at him.

I'm adding that to the facts of the story.

Was that related to his developmental problem/mental problem?
Or was it a vision problem?

If he was deaf, was he unable to sign or indicate his deafness to people?
The point is that some people are quick to excuse the cops for not hearing the warnings they were being given but assume that the victim had plenty of time to register the fullness of the situation.

In my mind, the person most responsible for being aware in this situation should be the person who is there in a professional capacity, you know, the guy being paid to be there.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:44 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Based primarily on the officers report?

The definition of 'threatening' seems, at least in the case currently under discussion, to be a point of contention.
No, they are compiling their own data using lots of info sources.

They documented far more cases than the FBI database, for example.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:44 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Based primarily on the officers report?

The definition of 'threatening' seems, at least in the case currently under discussion, to be a point of contention.
Don't worry, the body cams will clear up any confusion.

/s
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:45 PM   #310
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It still ignores that everywhere else the police are not killing at anything like the same rate. Possession of a weapon does not alter a UK police officer's duty to apprehend the person and bring them to justice. Just killing because there are risks, is an excuse for summary justice.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:45 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
No, they are compiling their own data using lots of info sources.

They documented far more cases than the FBI database, for example.

The Washington Post document more police shootings than do the FBI.


I'm going to say that again:


The Washington Post document more police shootings than do the FBI.


Jesus. H. Christ.

I'm done. There's no logic to be found in this issue.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:47 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
OK, so now he could not recognize uniformed police officers pointing pistols and tasers at him.
People might take you more seriously if you didn't make stuff up. Would you like me to hold your hand & walk you through why a deaf person might not understand what a cop wants them to do?

Quote:
I'm adding that to the facts of the story.
All you have to do is ask nicely.

Quote:
Was that related to his developmental problem/mental problem?
Or was it a vision problem?
Could've been any, all, other...

Quote:
If he was deaf, was he unable to sign or indicate his deafness to people?
What if he did & the cop doesn't know how to sign? What if he kept pointing to his ears & shaking his head?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:48 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Based primarily on the officers report?

The definition of 'threatening' seems, at least in the case currently under discussion, to be a point of contention.
We have established that for many US police officers and American members of this forum, threats needing a deadly response appear where there is just the vaguest possiblity that a police officer might get a little bit hurt.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:48 PM   #314
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Those figures need to be broken down better. Of the 403 people who had a gun, for instance, how many people actually were using it, or even reaching for a known gun, as compared to reaching for their wallet to show they had a permit, or those scenes where a gun just magically appeared?

How many of those 113 people with a knife were doing *anything* with the knife open? Or is it a case where "waving a knife" became "carrying a knife" became "carrying a closed knife" or just someone who had a small pocketknife or a leatherman-type tool somewhere on their person?

How many of those "used a vehicle as a weapon" were proven false by footage from cameras?

And how many police officers have used the "But I felt threatened" defense to get off any charges for bad shoots?

I am not a born-and-bred cop hater. I have friends on a few local forces. But this crap is getting out of hand, and if you don't go along with the game most places, you'll be hounded off the force by the "bad apples".
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:49 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
How are they going to cope in Texas?

In the right hands, a sword is extremely deadly while still within it's sheath. A skilled exponent is able to draw and cut in one, astonishingly quick, movement making even a sheathed weapon a threat to any officer that gets within four or five feet.

- Officers arrive at door
- knock
- man with sheathed Katana answers and is shot. He is an intimidate and severe threat and his calm demeanor could only be masking his intention to strike, just like ambling towards someone can (apparently) be interpreted as a subtle method of closing distance to attack.
You should have used Kirpan as an illustration.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:50 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The point is that some people are quick to excuse the cops for not hearing the warnings they were being given but assume that the victim had plenty of time to register the fullness of the situation.

In my mind, the person most responsible for being aware in this situation should be the person who is there in a professional capacity, you know, the guy being paid to be there.
The cops don't need to be excused for not hearing under stress or for tunnel vision. There's nothing they can do about it. It is the brain shutting down unnecessary input to focus on a threat. It's involuntary.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:51 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
And that's how 99.99% of such encounters go.
What, with a perfectly innocent person nearly being shot?

Dave
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:52 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Those figures need to be broken down better. Of the 403 people who had a gun, for instance, how many people actually were using it, or even reaching for a known gun, as compared to reaching for their wallet to show they had a permit, or those scenes where a gun just magically appeared?

How many of those 113 people with a knife were doing *anything* with the knife open? Or is it a case where "waving a knife" became "carrying a knife" became "carrying a closed knife" or just someone who had a small pocketknife or a leatherman-type tool somewhere on their person?

How many of those "used a vehicle as a weapon" were proven false by footage from cameras?

And how many police officers have used the "But I felt threatened" defense to get off any charges for bad shoots?

I am not a born-and-bred cop hater. I have friends on a few local forces. But this crap is getting out of hand, and if you don't go along with the game most places, you'll be hounded off the force by the "bad apples".
I don't think the WAPO categorizes it that way unless it actually should be categorized that way. They are not merely using police reports, but compiling their own data from various sources.

I would be surprised to learn that the WAPO listed a gun as a weapon used if the gun was not actually involved.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:53 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The point is that some people are quick to excuse the cops for not hearing the warnings they were being given but assume that the victim had plenty of time to register the fullness of the situation.

In my mind, the person most responsible for being aware in this situation should be the person who is there in a professional capacity, you know, the guy being paid to be there.
Exactly.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:53 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
What, with a perfectly innocent person nearly being shot?

Dave
Good point.
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