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Old 14th June 2017, 01:12 AM   #41
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I wonder if the company that made that cladding even bothered testing it or if they tested it and knew it was flammable. Either way they should be held accountable. Like it should no longer exist and the people in charge should go to prison.
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Old 14th June 2017, 01:23 AM   #42
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What a horrific story. The Guardian feed suggests that some people high up in the building managed to survive by putting wet towels down at the base of the doors.
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Old 14th June 2017, 02:31 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I wonder if the company that made that cladding even bothered testing it or if they tested it and knew it was flammable. Either way they should be held accountable. Like it should no longer exist and the people in charge should go to prison.
Just what I was going to say. When these buildings went up there weren't the quality controls we see today but ever since that time someone has been responsible for it, and whoever that is needs to be accountable.
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Old 14th June 2017, 02:33 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Just what I was going to say. When these buildings went up there weren't the quality controls we see today but ever since that time someone has been responsible for it, and whoever that is needs to be accountable.
The cladding that appears to have been responsible for the fire spreading was put on last year.
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Old 14th June 2017, 02:34 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
The cladding that appears to have been responsible for the fire spreading was put on last year.
Really? Unbelievable if so.
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Old 14th June 2017, 02:40 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Really? Unbelievable if so.
Yep.
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Old 14th June 2017, 02:44 AM   #47
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So flammable materials, no working fire alarm, no working sprinklers and no tested evacuation procedure. If this is proven then people need to charged with manslaughter and go to jail for a long time. Some of these property companies have no regard for anything but raking in the cash.
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Old 14th June 2017, 02:44 AM   #48
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Wasn't it shoddy cladding that made the fire in Dubai (last year? Year before?) worse than it should have been?
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Old 14th June 2017, 03:07 AM   #49
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The planning application and architects drawings for the renovations are available on the Kensington & Chelsea Council website but there are quite a few documents and it's all Greek to me.

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/planning/searches/default.aspx (search for Grenfell Tower).

I'd be surprises if flammable materials were in the specification.
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Old 14th June 2017, 03:20 AM   #50
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One person said he lived on the 4th floor and was woken by someone banging on his door. A neighbour said his fridge exploded and started the fire.
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Old 14th June 2017, 03:30 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
The planning application and architects drawings for the renovations are available on the Kensington & Chelsea Council website but there are quite a few documents and it's all Greek to me.

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/planning/searches/default.aspx (search for Grenfell Tower).

I'd be surprises if flammable materials were in the specification.
They aren't.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/do...27-1mukhx.html

Quote:
"It was obvious that it wasn't quite right how quickly the fire propagated and moved up the floors within minutes," Mr Wong said, adding that he would be attending a meeting hosted by the City of Melbourne on Monday afternoon.

MFB chief fire officer Peter Rau said the building's external cladding, Alucobest, had undergone scientific testing and was found in breach of combustibility requirements for a high-rise building.

"The external cladding material on this building did not prevent the spread of the fire, as required by the building code," Mr Rau said.

LU Simon managing director Peter Devitt said aluminium composite panels including Alucobest had been widely used in Australia for decades. He said the cladding complied with Australian standard tests for ignitability, spread of flame, heat and smoke.

But in 2010, when the building was commissioned, there was no such product that passed the test for "combustibility", he said.


Ben Hardwick, of law firm Slater and Gordon, said legal action potentially worth tens of millions had been on hold awaiting the outcome of the MFB investigation.

"Owners and residents of this building are rightly asking how an occupancy permit was ever issued for this building," he said.

"They now face the prospect of not only having to deal with the fall out of the fire but will be faced with costly rectification works to replace the external walls to the building."

He said whoever was responsible for issuing the occupancy permit in 2012 would "certainly have a number of questions to answer".
Fortunately this building had sprinklers.
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Old 14th June 2017, 03:34 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If you have to traverse 20 floors of a smoke-filled stairwell, you would not have made it anyway.
The Stairwells are supposed to be designed to limit the amount of smoke that can get into them and to vent what does to prevent exactly this issue.
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Old 14th June 2017, 03:47 AM   #53
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The police have just confirmed 6 fatalities with more expected. More than 50 being treated in hospital
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Old 14th June 2017, 04:09 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Certainly supposed to, in fact multiple ones according to the codes, and a sprinkler system. That people are trapped and that the fire was able to take control of so much of the building so rapidly questions exactly how well these were implemented in this case.
It appears that there isn't a regulation for a tower of this size to have sprinklers, even after a renovation:

http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london/wes...rt-four-years/

The person being interviewed that is familiar with the building also stated that the exit stairwell does not have fire doors.
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Old 14th June 2017, 04:41 AM   #55
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I should hope that several people are found guilty of serious crimes. And I am not talking about whoever started the fire either.

A small fire should not spread to more than one floor. That is even assuming it is ignored. This is because of concrete between the floors.
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Old 14th June 2017, 04:49 AM   #56
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The first few posts on the fire at the skyscrapercity forum that AUP linked to earlier has some useful information on the building and its renovation for those interested:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...#post140638804
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Old 14th June 2017, 05:44 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So flammable materials, no working fire alarm, no working sprinklers and no tested evacuation procedure. If this is proven then people need to charged with manslaughter and go to jail for a long time. Some of these property companies have no regard for anything but raking in the cash.

And only one stairwell.
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Old 14th June 2017, 05:50 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The Stairwells are supposed to be designed to limit the amount of smoke that can get into them and to vent what does to prevent exactly this issue.

This is already in the Wiki article on the fire.

Quote:
Past incidents noted by the Grenfell Action Group included a fire in the Adair block in October 2015, at which they stated the London Fire Brigade concluded the management company had not safeguarded residents properly and had issued an Enforcement Order to improve fire safety in the escape staircases and fire doors. A further Fire Brigade audit of the nearby Hazelwood block, also managed by the same company (which had previously suffered a fire with a fatality), also identified fire-related issues and resulted in a further Enforcement Order. The Action Group stated that in the Hazelwood fire, one factor was that stairwell air grilles allowed fire and smoke to spread rapidly and should be closed off;
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Old 14th June 2017, 06:47 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If it doesn't collapse, does this lend any credence to 9/11 truthers, or not so much?
No but it may lead to a resurgence in speculation that this is proof the WTC was brought down by hidden explosives.
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Old 14th June 2017, 08:21 AM   #60
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Ya'll need to get a building code with some teeth. This is horrible
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Old 14th June 2017, 08:29 AM   #61
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39% of the Tory MPs who voted against an amendment to ensure rented homes were "fit for human habitation" were landlords.
https://www.theguardian.com/housing-...private-rented
Quote:
Their argument, that it would be a burden upon landlords and discourage people from renting out homes, is of no comfort to the tenants living in Rachmanesque conditions with pest infestations, damp and mould.

Perhaps, if homes aren’t fit for human habitation, they shouldn’t be let out to humans for habitation?
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Old 14th June 2017, 08:31 AM   #62
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Perhaps more relevant
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...k-tower-blocks

Quote:
(fire expert Sam )Webb surveyed hundreds of residential tower blocks across the country in the early 1990s and presented a damning report to the Home Office, which revealed that more than half of the buildings didn’t meet basic fire safety standards.
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Old 14th June 2017, 09:04 AM   #63
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Much as I enjoy reams of poorly informed opinions unsupported by facts at this early stage, there are a wide range of potential shortcomings which might have contributed to the tragic events of the last 24 hours. There may indeed be compliance issues around the Building Regulations, but detail design and workmanship will doubtless come to the fore.

Until we know more, probably during the inevitable public inquiry, I am not at all sure that we should place too much weight on the majority of the talking heads currently appearing in the media.
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Old 14th June 2017, 09:16 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Ya'll need to get a building code with some teeth. This is horrible
Whilst, as someone who practices in Scotland, I have some concerns about certain aspects of the English Building Regulations (combustability of escape stairs, for example) however it would be unfair to suggest that they are not appropriately rigorous or enforced at statutory consent stage.

As an expert witness, I have to say that workmanship and a failure to adequately inspect or check work on-site have to be the focus in very many cases. The move towards what is effectively self-certification and monitoring in a competitive market place does nothing to help.

We have one project out of all our portfilio where the (public sector) client was willing to appoint a clerk of works. That's not good.
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Old 14th June 2017, 09:17 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
39% of the Tory MPs who voted against an amendment to ensure rented homes were "fit for human habitation" were landlords.
https://www.theguardian.com/housing-...private-rented
One of them was the minister for Fire and Police.
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Old 14th June 2017, 09:30 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And only one stairwell.
Looking at the floorplan, I think a single stairwell would have been fine... as long as it was actually fire-rated, and properly closed off from the rest of the structure.

Things like ventilating to/from the stairwell, not having fire doors, and not having heat/flame-resistant barrier elements in the structure between the stairwell and the rest of the building, all make the stairwell an inadequate fire escape. Adding those elements would have probably saved as many lives as could be saved from the building, in this scenario.
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Old 14th June 2017, 09:56 AM   #67
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You seem awfully sure they weren't. Can you provide a link to the Building Warrant plans or alternative source?
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:04 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What a horrific story. The Guardian feed suggests that some people high up in the building managed to survive by putting wet towels down at the base of the doors.
That's good news.
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:07 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The Stairwells are supposed to be designed to limit the amount of smoke that can get into them and to vent what does to prevent exactly this issue.
Witnesses said they were smoke filled shortly after the fire started.
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:11 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Eye witness on BBC News says he was there very early on - at the same time as the Fire Brigade arrived - went inside the building to rescue people, and he heard no fire alarms, and saw only seven people escape. He thinks that many, many people will have been trapped.
Someone said the building is designed so that the alarm only goes off on the floor of the fire.

Personally, I am sceptical the fire was caused by a fridge freezer, causing it to spread so rapidly.

Some say it was to do with the aluminium cladding, others say the cladding was of wood.

It proves that persons living within this social housing were expected to put up with shoddy standards, in the middle of the UK's richest borough.
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:16 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Much as I enjoy reams of poorly informed opinions unsupported by facts at this early stage, there are a wide range of potential shortcomings which might have contributed to the tragic events of the last 24 hours. There may indeed be compliance issues around the Building Regulations, but detail design and workmanship will doubtless come to the fore.

Until we know more, probably during the inevitable public inquiry, I am not at all sure that we should place too much weight on the majority of the talking heads currently appearing in the media.
The company who handled the renovation, Rydon, quickly put out a statement strongly confirming it was fully compliant.

A big concern is why complaints about fire hazards were ignored.
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:17 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What a horrific story. The Guardian feed suggests that some people high up in the building managed to survive by putting wet towels down at the base of the doors.
No, that was 'advice' given prior to the fire. And intended only as a short term measure.
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:20 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Personally, I am sceptical the fire was caused by a fridge freezer, causing it to spread so rapidly.
It is being reported that that information came from the guy whose refrigerator caught on fire.
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:20 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Whilst, as someone who practices in Scotland, I have some concerns about certain aspects of the English Building Regulations (combustability of escape stairs, for example) however it would be unfair to suggest that they are not appropriately rigorous or enforced at statutory consent stage.

As an expert witness, I have to say that workmanship and a failure to adequately inspect or check work on-site have to be the focus in very many cases. The move towards what is effectively self-certification and monitoring in a competitive market place does nothing to help.

We have one project out of all our portfilio where the (public sector) client was willing to appoint a clerk of works. That's not good.
Even if work was skimped, it seems NOBODY envisaged that the fire would spread so rapidly to all floors.

What is your opinion as to how this could have happened?
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:24 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It is being reported that that information came from the guy whose refrigerator caught on fire.

Is there a link handy? I know fridges can explode.

Others are saying it was an unboxed-in gas pipe, still under installation, under the stairs.

This seems more plausible to me.
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:31 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Whilst, as someone who practices in Scotland, I have some concerns about certain aspects of the English Building Regulations (combustability of escape stairs, for example) however it would be unfair to suggest that they are not appropriately rigorous or enforced at statutory consent stage.

As an expert witness, I have to say that workmanship and a failure to adequately inspect or check work on-site have to be the focus in very many cases. The move towards what is effectively self-certification and monitoring in a competitive market place does nothing to help.

We have one project out of all our portfilio where the (public sector) client was willing to appoint a clerk of works. That's not good.
It's still early, so some of the problems I've read and heard on the news may end up being incorrect, but taken as a whole I'm disturbed. So far, these are the deficiencies I've heard of:
  • No sprinklers.
  • No fire alarm.
  • Stairwell lacked functioning smoke dampers and as a result the stairwells were extremely difficult to use and even spread smoke to otherwise unaffected portions of the building.
  • Exterior cladding was flammable.
  • Posted instructions in the building said to hunker down in place in case of fire rather than evacuate.
  • During recent renovation, the building only had one means of egress.

Here in the USA, I might believe that one of those would sneak through the special inspectors, code officials and the Architect's CA rep. But not that many. Our fire marshals conduct regular inspections of building and check and make sure the fire safety standards are being met. The lack of fire alarm, and the inappropriate instructions in case of a fire would be noticed immediately.

The last project I worked on had four different organizations conducting inspections during construction and before occupancy: the city, the architect, the owner and the bank. Sometimes there was even a fifth, such as the insurer for the roof.

I honestly don't understand how a recently renovated building could be this bad.
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:37 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Is there a link handy? I know fridges can explode.
I think it was CNN or BBC or both. I'll see what I can find now.
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:42 AM   #78
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Some reports say that the alarm was raised so quickly because Muslims were up late (it being Ramadan and they have to wait until after sunset to eat and drink) and not asleep like many other residents.

I have an aunt who lives in the borough - like many others, she and her family have been donating food, water and clothes to the homeless today.

The number of confirmed fatalities is now 12, but many more are still missing.
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:42 AM   #79
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There are a bunch of media sources with the bit about the refrigerator. Nothing confirmed.

Originally Posted by Telegraph
A faulty fridge?

Witnesses described hearing one distressed resident apparently telling neighbours his faulty fridge caused the blaze.

Samira Lamrani, 38, who lives on nearby Hurstway Walk, told the Press Association: "When I arrived on the scene he (the resident) was amongst the people that were standing there.

"He was just beside himself. He was just as surprised at how quickly the fire spread as anybody else.

"I could hear him saying that he contacted the emergency services immediately and they reassured him everything would be under control within a short period of time, and obviously it wasn't."

She said she thought the fire started on the second floor...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...s-will-examine
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Old 14th June 2017, 10:45 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
...snip..

I honestly don't understand how a recently renovated building could be this bad.
It wasn't an old building that was freshly kitted out, renovation in this case seems to have only been cosmetic and update electrics, the building was never unoccupied.
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