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Old 8th August 2017, 12:09 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, that's the thing. If he was a Google UK employee, he'd be laughing all the way to an employment tribunal right now.
On what do you base that on?
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:10 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This might come as a shock to you, people often believe what they say.
Not shocking. Just hilarious that people believe this type of gobbledegook corporate speak.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:12 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No it gives the impression that Google wants people to do the job they are being paid to do.
Considering that we don't even know what his job was, let alone how he performs at it, your claim is obviously false.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:12 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Not shocking. Just hilarious that people believe this type of gobbledegook corporate speak.
Corporate people mean their corporate speak.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:14 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No it gives the impression that Google wants people to do the job they are being paid to do.
I agree with Bob. Doesn't give that impression at all. Google literally pays their people to offer this type of feedback. It's just in this case their employee didn't parrot the corporate pre-approved "Heil Diversity" mantra and was forced on the street because of it.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:15 PM   #126
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Cool

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Corporate people mean their corporate speak.
I think I saw that written on a urinal somewhere.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:16 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
He was not fired for sending a memo, he was fired for the content of the memo. He was fired “perpetuating gender stereotypes.”
In that case his firing was unjustified.

Quote:
ETA: Diversity of opinion is more important? So neo-nazis, 9/11 deniers, racists are good to have on staff for diversity sake?
If you want an intelligent discussion you might want to steer away from this sort of nonsense.

Yes, diversity of opinion is _more_ important than diversity of skin colour or sexual orientation. Because who cares about skin colour? It's not as if it somehow helps the business to have more or fewer tones in their employ. It does not follow that ALL opinions are equal, as you well know from this very forum.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:17 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The diversity they won't permit is ideological. They pretend to, but it's just pretense.
I work in the Valley. It is definitely a land of lockstep ideology to a scary degree. There are definitely things you cannot say.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:25 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I agree.

But firing the employee still proves that they aren't actually interested in diversity. They're interested in covering their asses and appeasing activists who demand one sort of diversity but hate other kinds.

It doesn't prove anything of the sort.

All it proves is that they don't feel using their internal mail system to broadcast such a document to every single one of their employees is appropriate.

The resulting furor which that distribution created within their internal discussion spaces shows why that is a reasonable way for them to feel.

I expect that if this guy had limited his expressions of these beliefs within the company to chats in the break room or other casual encounters with individuals or small groups that he would still have a job.

In fact, I expect it is likely that he had already done exactly that. It might not make him popular with all his cow-orkers, but he'd probably still be there.

If he had posted this screed on a personal blog outside of the company I would disagree with his dismissal, and from links posted above it appears that the state of California would have as well.

But he didn't.

He forced their hand. Did he not anticipate such a reaction? It's hard to be certain, but his very employment at Google argues against him being singularly stupid, so he must have realized that the possibility existed.

I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that he had already decided he wasn't happy there, doing whatever he was doing, and decided to go out with a bang.

I wonder if some female got a position he wanted or thought he deserved.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:26 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Agreed. Although I'd say to a much greater degree. I don't recall the Old Right resorting to violence as often as the New Left.
Ha ha... good one.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:29 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This is a person who believes a whole fraction of workers are inferior based on their genetics. That person is simply not a team player.
I did not get that at all from reading the memo. Maybe it's like an abstract painting - you see what your brain wants to manufacturer even if it isn't really there.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:32 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Politics
He was fired because of politics?

You'll have to expand on that for me. Which politics?
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:38 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
You'll have to expand on that for me. Which politics?
What do you mean "which politics?" If you're outside the loop on this, I suggest you go back to the beginning and get yourself up to speed.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:38 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It doesn't prove anything of the sort.

All it proves is that they don't feel using their internal mail system to broadcast such a document to every single one of their employees is appropriate.
That's not what happened. The document wasn't mailed to everyone, it was shared on Google Docs. Employees not interested in the document never had to see it.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:40 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Agreed. Although I'd say to a much greater degree. I don't recall the Old Right resorting to violence as often as the New Left.
They are so much more effective at it though.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:43 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindrift
He was not fired for sending a memo, he was fired for the content of the memo. He was fired “perpetuating gender stereotypes.”

In that case his firing was unjustified.

<snip>.

I think it would probably be more accurate to say he was fired for sending the memo the way he did.

I suspect he could have expressed those same opinions within the company with relative impunity if he had chosen to use a less indiscriminate (no pun intended) method to do it.

I'd be surprised if he hadn't already.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:44 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Originally Posted by Tony View Post
But the Old Right (and Old Left) had more than a handful of times where violence and murder were employed.
I stand corrected. I've got a friend who uses "old right" to refer to the moral majority and such back in the 1980s, but now after Googling (irony noted) I see that it is a term with a specific and different meaning.

But I still stand by my statement using the incorrect definition of "old right"!!
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:48 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's not what happened. The document wasn't mailed to everyone, it was shared on Google Docs. Employees not interested in the document never had to see it.

Are you saying that it was only made available to employees who had first expressed an interest in seeing it? Or that it was made available to everyone and they could chose to look at it or not?

If it is the second option then I believe you have just made a classic distinction without a significant difference.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:58 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It will be interesting to find out how quickly this guy is scooped up by some right-wing organization. In fact I wonder if such an arrangement was already made before he circulated the memo and this was an attempt to create publicity. But of course I don't know that.
He may have been considering leaving and then came up with this idea so he'd get a severance package and unemployment benefits instead of just quitting.

I'd also wager he's already getting offers from more than just right wing organizations. Although he's probably getting death threats, too, so I'd count it as a mixed bag.
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:00 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
1. Doesn't matter if they agreed with him. Google has a history of encouraging employees to share their different views

2. Yes. Google set their system up for this very reason.

https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/...rsial/dlbc48s/

The rest of that thread is pretty good. A few current and former Google employees weigh in.

If this is the case then my opinions are going to be different, and I think the odds of a successful lawsuit (at least in California) are much higher.
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:08 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Are you saying that it was only made available to employees who had first expressed an interest in seeing it? Or that it was made available to everyone and they could chose to look at it or not?

If it is the second option then I believe you have just made a classic distinction without a significant difference.
No, it's not a distinction without a difference. When something comes into your email inbox, it imposes on your attention, even if only to examine the subject line before deleting. When something is NOT in your email inbox, but on Google Docs, it does not impose on your attention, even if it is accessible to you.
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:09 PM   #142
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It is good to see that Google (Don't be evil) do not any demographic breakdowns into any of their add campaigns, creating groups to aim ads at etc.

Makes me wonder why anyone would advertise with them at all, since they must obviously just send pop ups completely willy nilly... No targeting whatsoever, hence me getting random tampons adverts every now and then which I would not really be inclined to use.

Hypocrites.
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:10 PM   #143
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Is what he said accurate or not?
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:27 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
They don't have to debate anyone. It's their policy, as long as it is legal, the only ones they have to justify it to are themselves.
Sad, but true
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:30 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I did not get that at all from reading the memo. Maybe it's like an abstract painting - you see what your brain wants to manufacturer even if it isn't really there.
Was thinking the same thing
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:41 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post

What strikes me are the huge similarities between the Old Right and the New Left.

Both are obsessed with race and sex/gender.

Both are extremely self righteous.

Both cozy up to and defend religion.

Both use divide-and-rule tactics.

Both think every aspect of society should reflect their values and use the state to enforce that.

Both use capitalism to enforce their views and punish dissenters.
When I read this, I imagined a circle where there's one point on it, whether you go left or right from that point you will end up at the same opposite point if you push hard enough.
Then I googled it and saw this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
kinda makes sense, thanks Tony

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Old 8th August 2017, 01:43 PM   #147
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I have to admit that reading it one gets a different picture than the news headlines and summaries. It's not as bad as the news makes it sound. That doesn't mean there isn't a load of crap in it, but some of the points I actually find valid.
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Old 8th August 2017, 01:46 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Doesn't give that impression.
Oh yes it does.
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:51 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's not what happened. The document wasn't mailed to everyone, it was shared on Google Docs. Employees not interested in the document never had to see it.
So possibly it sent some of them to their safe spaces even though they hadn't read it?
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:54 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by CosCos View Post
Interesting, never thought of it this way. I do disagree about the violence aspect of it though. If you look at where most of the political violence is coming from, it is from the left side of the political aisle, maybe more so here in the US.
We've already had this sort of claim on this forum but it really depends which cherries you pick. I think it'd be fairer to say that there's violence in equivalent quantities and nature on both sides of the political spectrum; when one discusses extremism, side doesn't really matter, because extremists only have two sides: them, and everybody else.
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:58 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
We've already had this sort of claim on this forum but it really depends which cherries you pick.
What cherries would you pick in the US showing right wing violence?
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:01 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yes, they are morally obligated to do those things and engage in the debate.

Companies have moral obligations to do things they may find unreasonable, but individuals can do (and, presumably, not do) whatever they please?

That's a weirdly backwards ideology you've constructed.
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:13 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Ozzie View Post
My take? Political correctness has become the new intolerance.

Why do people keep insisting that the discouragement of bad behavior and alienation of those who engage in it is an example of negative intolerance? I mean, why shouldn't I be allowed to place my hand on a female coworker's thigh as I talk to them, right? Denying me that expression of opinion is just plain intolerant.

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Old 8th August 2017, 03:23 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Politics

Unlikely. Consider the current political environment in the U.S.. If "this is why Trump won" indicates the potential for a very powerful backlash to political correctness, "politics" would dictate that Google keep their head down and attempt to avoid such backlash.

Yet they've done the opposite. Almost as if their leadership actually might have a principle that they are trying to uphold, even in the face of a significant number of angry, white men.
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:26 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Why do people keep insisting that the discouragement of bad behavior and alienation of those who engage in it is an example of negative intolerance?
That same argument gets used for religious freedom.

"Why is Hobby Lobby discouraging bad behavior (fornication/murdering babies/gay stuff/ect.) an example of intolerance?"

Quote:
I mean, why shouldn't I be allowed to place my hand on a female coworker's thigh as I talk to them, right? Denying me that expression of opinion is just plain intolerant.
Writing thoughts down and allowing people to view them and unwanted touching are quite different issues.
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:26 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This is a person who believes a whole fraction of workers are inferior based on their genetics. That person is simply not a team player.
Damore may well believe that, but he doesn't say so in the memo.
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:28 PM   #157
Cl1mh4224rd
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Is what he said accurate or not?

The answer to that question is what the larger debate (beyond just this incident and this forum) is kind of about. Sorry, but you won't find a simple answer.
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:32 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
That same argument gets used for religious freedom.

Yes, much like all things (physical and intellectual) wielded by humans, it can be misused. So I guess that leaves no one capable of judging the correctness of any application of social pressure, because any application is seen as unreasonable to some number of people...

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 8th August 2017 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:32 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
I mean, why shouldn't I be allowed to place my hand on a female coworker's thigh as I talk to them, right?
Equating tolerance of one dudes, frankly pretty mild memo, to tolerance of sexual harrassment, which in some countries would be classified as sexual assault

That is some awesome grasping of straws
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:36 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
What cherries would you pick in the US showing right wing violence?
I believe lynching was mentioned already. I'd call MacCarthyism right-wing violence. A small number of Trump supporters.

Humans are violent. Moreso when they are ideologues.
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