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Tags donald trump , racism issues , racists , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 20th September 2017, 08:25 AM   #1
ponderingturtle
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How Trump has Emboldened Bigots, Racists and Nazis

How is this as a thread title as opposed to the one about hate crimes?

How about this to start

http://gothamist.com/2017/03/28/iran...ath_threat.php

I would also cite all the statements from the charlottesville nazi protestors as more evidence.
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Old 20th September 2017, 08:46 AM   #2
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Do Bigots, Racists and Nazis Feel Empowered by Trump's Election?

This is a split-off topic from the woefully* titled "Massive Wave of Hate Crimes, etc..." thread. *Woefully, because it's allowed conservative smoke blowers to split hairs over the poor choice of wording.

The premise is that Trump's election has enabled not just the deplorables, but the reprehensibles. Actual nazis, hard line racists, bigots of various stripes. The charmers who were in Charlottesville would be a good starting point, as it seems to be giving the enablers and apologists ulcers trying to get it ignored.

Alt-Right is nothing more than a nice word for White Nationalist. As we saw after Charlottesville and Trump's intentionally weak response, the Supremacists, Klan and Nazis all took his comments with great excitement. This, alone, should settle the overall question, but I'm curious to hear the apologists' views.
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Old 20th September 2017, 08:47 AM   #3
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Betteridge's Law of Headlines.
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Old 20th September 2017, 08:59 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Betteridge's Law of Headlines.
I just saw a headline:

Was Betteridge Right?
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:08 AM   #5
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One the one hand, yes, Trump has emboldened them, but on the other hand, invoking somebody or something doesn't really say much about your motive: Mark Chapman, the guy who killed John Lennon, invoked The Catcher in the Rye, and I think that the guy who attempted to kill Reagan invoked Jody Foster, so …
When fundamentalist Christians invoke the Bible to defend their crusades against gays, we're probably not dealing with people who, until they read the scripture, were quite easygoing and comfortable with homosexuality. They've just come up with (one of the silliest) new ways of defending their creed.
In order to be emboldened by Trump's statements, you must believe that the guy who's in charge, the guy on top of the pyramid, must be right, that his views somehow, for no other reason than because he is that guy, deserve respect and obedience.
And that belief system is much more prevalent than the ideology of white supremacy.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:10 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
One the one hand, yes, Trump has emboldened them, but on the other hand, invoking somebody or something doesn't really say much about your motive: Mark Chapman, the guy who killed John Lennon, invoked The Catcher in the Rye, and I think that the guy who attempted to kill Reagan invoked Jody Foster, so …
When fundamentalist Christians invoke the Bible to defend their crusades against gays, we're probably not dealing with people who, until they read the scripture, were quite easygoing and comfortable with homosexuality. They've just come up with (one of the silliest) new ways of defending their creed.
In order to be emboldened by Trump's statements, you must believe that the guy who's in charge, the guy on top of the pyramid, must be right, that his views somehow, for no other reason than because he is that guy, deserve respect and obedience.
And that belief system is much more prevalent than the ideology of white supremacy.
Sure the issue is how Trump has effected the beliefs and actions of the white supremacists. And has his rhetoric shifted people to embrace white supremacy who hadn't thought about it in the past.

Though FoolmeOnce made basicly the same thread, so they should probably be merged.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:11 AM   #7
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Trump's election has certainly empowered the bigots on the left.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:14 AM   #8
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The right wing crowd should not feel empowered by Trumps win. Never once has he given these people any encouragement to cause trouble. He actually told them to quit.

Trump wants to make America stronger, creat jbs, keep jobs in the USA and some of these qualities appeal to the KKK or skin heads or whomever. Trump never said jobs for white only. Many conservative black groups support Trump and probably will when reelection time comes.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:15 AM   #9
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I'm a Trump supported and I can't stand the KKK or its ilk.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
The right wing crowd should not feel empowered by Trumps win. Never once has he given these people any encouragement to cause trouble. He actually told them to quit.

Trump wants to make America stronger, creat jbs, keep jobs in the USA and some of these qualities appeal to the KKK or skin heads or whomever. Trump never said jobs for white only. Many conservative black groups support Trump and probably will when reelection time comes.
And his many racist rants are of course not a point attracting the KKK to him at all. You know many KKK members and nazis are really good people. Condemning the nazis as a group with out pointing out that some of them are good would be worse than doing that to all hispanics.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:22 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I'm a Trump supported and I can't stand the KKK or its ilk.
What do you think of his equivocating about Charlotte? Or pretending to not know who the KKK was when he was told they supported him?
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:25 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I'm a Trump supported and I can't stand the KKK or its ilk.
Trump is part of 'its ilk'.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:40 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Betteridge's Law of Headlines.
In with the first distraction. I think the Dodge Ball thread is in Sports.

Do you deny that Trump's cozy relationship with Bannon and the Mercers has given rise to the voices of the foul right wing extremists?
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:41 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Trump's election has certainly empowered the bigots on the left.
You got us. We hate racists, nazis and bigots.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:57 AM   #15
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Are they feeling empowered, or are they just getting more of the spotlight now than they did before?
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:06 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Are they feeling empowered, or are they just getting more of the spotlight now than they did before?
Well, that's a form of empowerment in itself, isn't it? Their previous press was, shall we agree, mostly of the negative sort. Now they get negative reactions (using your car to run people down will do that) but they have the Great Orange Turdblossom trumpsplaining it away.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:09 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Well, that's a form of empowerment in itself, isn't it? Their previous press was, shall we agree, mostly of the negative sort. Now they get negative reactions (using your car to run people down will do that) but they have the Great Orange Turdblossom trumpsplaining it away.
At least that was officially not a terrorist act.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:10 AM   #18
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Count me in for another "No" vote.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:54 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You got us. We hate racists, nazis and bigots.
and without even seeing the hypocrisy involved.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:00 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
and without even seeing the hypocrisy involved.
Hating bigots is the worst kind of hate, the kind that targets white men.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Are they feeling empowered, or are they just getting more of the spotlight now than they did before?
The OP is a little light on actual data, but sure, I bet they're feeling empowered. The question is, empowered to do what? Speak openly, obviously. What else? The thread this spun off from has tried to build a case that they've felt empowered to commit a massive wave of hate crimes. Have we seen that? With data, I mean. Not anecdotally.

But the subtext of these threads is simply, "everybody not on the left is a Trump-empowered racist hate criminal." Which is probably why it gets so much pushback.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:46 PM   #22
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I would characterize NAZI's, KKK and what not as being emboldened by Trump's presidency, not empowered.

Its worth noting that there big moment in charlotte attracted a few hundred people from a nation of millions though.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sure the issue is how Trump has effected the beliefs and actions of the white supremacists. And has his rhetoric shifted people to embrace white supremacy who hadn't thought about it in the past.
Trump doesn't strike me as the kind of compelling public speaker whose rhetoric could toggle someone from "hasn't thought about embracing white supremacy" to "has embraced white supremacy". Especially since his rhetoric has not, to my knowledge really touched on the topic at all.

Can you perhaps give one or two examples of rhetoric you think has a serious potential to convert a disinterested person to white supremacy?

I'm imagining something like, "I hadn't thought about it before, but now that Trump called Hillary a 'nasty woman', I'm going to embrace white supremacy!" Is that what you had in mind?

Quote:
Though FoolmeOnce made basicly the same thread, so they should probably be merged.
Probably. At least one of you managed to scrape up a relevant anecdote to work with. Seems like both of you should get the benefit.
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Old 20th September 2017, 02:01 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
In with the first distraction. I think the Dodge Ball thread is in Sports.
Aw, c'mon. That thread title was begging for it. Anyway, the joke's been made, let's move on. It's not a distraction unless you make it a distraction.

Quote:
Do you deny that Trump's cozy relationship with Bannon and the Mercers has given rise to the voices of the foul right wing extremists?
Nope. Why? Were you hoping I would?
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Old 20th September 2017, 03:44 PM   #25
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Well, they say they are and behave as if they are, so, yes. I'm not seeing how someone could reasonably argue with that as the question is posed.
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Old 20th September 2017, 03:50 PM   #26
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I'd argue that the overwhelming mechanism emboldening the white supremacists isn't so much Trump or his words, but the reactions of others too them. It has shown white supremacists that the vast majority of Republicans and many independents will hand wave and outright defend blatantly racist statements. That bald-faced racism at high levels doesn't have the kinds of consequences we once thought they did/should have. They'll deny racism as a problem to the point of arguing that a person saying an American born judge can't do his job because of his race isn't racist. It is. Full stop.

They see this as a wink and a nudge, because they know it is, and they fully believe others know it is too, and are thus defending racism as long as there is the faintest thing that might be mistake for a fig leaf over it.
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Old 20th September 2017, 04:12 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Though FoolmeOnce made basicly the same thread, so they should probably be merged.
Except he used "empowered". I think "emboldened" is closer to the mark.
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Old 20th September 2017, 04:53 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Trump doesn't strike me as the kind of compelling public speaker whose rhetoric could toggle someone from "hasn't thought about embracing white supremacy" to "has embraced white supremacy". Especially since his rhetoric has not, to my knowledge really touched on the topic at all.

Can you perhaps give one or two examples of rhetoric you think has a serious potential to convert a disinterested person to white supremacy?

I'm imagining something like, "I hadn't thought about it before, but now that Trump called Hillary a 'nasty woman', I'm going to embrace white supremacy!" Is that what you had in mind?
Is it possible that you don't understand what "embolden" means? Hint: It does not mean "convert". Knowing that you are rather intelligent, I'm gonna call "Misdirection!" yet again.

This seems to be a topic that our conservative brethren are unable to address directly.

Quote:
Probably. At least one of you managed to scrape up a relevant anecdote to work with. Seems like both of you should get the benefit.
It doesn't matter. You won't address the issue, anyway.

I've asked that the threads be merged. I think we're both begging the question, anyway. The fact is that Trump and his Alt-Right buddies (they didn't clean them all out by moving Bannon back to his bully pulpit at Breitbart) have emboldened the dark underbelly of the GOP.
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Old 20th September 2017, 04:58 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well, they say they are and behave as if they are, so, yes. I'm not seeing how someone could reasonably argue with that as the question is posed.
I'm begging the question in the OP (as I mentioned in the near-duplicate thread).
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:47 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Trump's election has certainly empowered the bigots on the left.
This
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:56 PM   #31
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Does Trump actually exist or is he a straw man set up for purposes of drawing out some deplorable racist, homophobe Nazi so that we can all make fun of them, again?
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:57 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
and without even seeing the hypocrisy involved.
Not seeing any hypocrisy there, sorry.
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hating bigots is the worst kind of hate, the kind that targets white men.
I was going to say no, until I saw this post, and then I had to change my answer to:

yes, some bigots anyway.
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:22 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'm begging the question in the OP (as I mentioned in the near-duplicate thread).
Which is disappointing. In the thread you split from, it seemed like you thought there was a serious problem, and you wanted to bring forward evidence for us to consider. I distinctly remember suggesting that if you really thought so, you should probably start a new thread to make your case free of that clown show's unfortunate baggage. So here you are. But instead of bringing a case with evidence, you step right into Betteridge's Law and... then nothing, really. At least the near-duplicate thread comes up with an anecdote to start with. Here we're left with little more than inanities and banalities. I'm thinking Noztradamus has it about right.

In the other thread you invited my thoughtful input. Here I'm doing the best I can, but so far you haven't given us much to work with.
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Old 20th September 2017, 07:47 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which is disappointing. In the thread you split from, it seemed like you thought there was a serious problem, and you wanted to bring forward evidence for us to consider. I distinctly remember suggesting that if you really thought so, you should probably start a new thread to make your case free of that clown show's unfortunate baggage. So here you are. But instead of bringing a case with evidence, you step right into Betteridge's Law and... then nothing, really. At least the near-duplicate thread comes up with an anecdote to start with. Here we're left with little more than inanities and banalities. I'm thinking Noztradamus has it about right.

In the other thread you invited my thoughtful input. Here I'm doing the best I can, but so far you haven't given us much to work with.
Well, there ya go, thinking again! You will be run out of the New GOP if you keep that up.

Betteridge's Law is about as valid as the Rule of So. Some pithy crap someone made up and that people over-apply.

Maybe you should go start a thread: Resolved Trump Does Not Cater to Racists and Nazis - Documentary Proof Only

This one is for open discussion and opinions, as are most threads in SI&CE. It's an ongoing event. "Racist Pig Elected President" was on election day. "What Are the Effects of having a Racist Pig in the White House?" is not going to be documented other than anecdotally* until some actual data has come in.

*And you'll be the first at the "that's just anecdotes" buffet line.
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Old 21st September 2017, 03:35 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which is disappointing. In the thread you split from, it seemed like you thought there was a serious problem
And merely harassing blacks and jews is of course normal and what they should expect.
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Old 21st September 2017, 03:54 AM   #37
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Yes, they do.

As stated above, they say they do and they act like they do. There's no reason to think they don't.

The question Trump apologists need to ask themselves is 'why'. The rest of us already know.
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Old 21st September 2017, 04:06 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Trump doesn't strike me as the kind of compelling public speaker whose rhetoric could toggle someone from "hasn't thought about embracing white supremacy" to "has embraced white supremacy". Especially since his rhetoric has not, to my knowledge really touched on the topic at all.
And who would have though gamergate lead to lots of people embracing nazi ideology, but it does seem to work out that way.
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Old 21st September 2017, 04:18 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I'd argue that the overwhelming mechanism emboldening the white supremacists isn't so much Trump or his words, but the reactions of others too them. It has shown white supremacists that the vast majority of Republicans and many independents will hand wave and outright defend blatantly racist statements. That bald-faced racism at high levels doesn't have the kinds of consequences we once thought they did/should have. They'll deny racism as a problem to the point of arguing that a person saying an American born judge can't do his job because of his race isn't racist. It is. Full stop.

They see this as a wink and a nudge, because they know it is, and they fully believe others know it is too, and are thus defending racism as long as there is the faintest thing that might be mistake for a fig leaf over it.
This is entirely correct. When there's no consequences for being racist, racists will thrive.
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Old 21st September 2017, 04:21 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
This is entirely correct. When there's no consequences for being racist, racists will thrive.
Hell being a racist opens up new job opportunities in the justice department now.
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