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Old 21st September 2017, 07:06 AM   #1
Stacko
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Oklahoma Police Kill Deaf Man for the Crime of Holding a Walking Stick

Oklahoma Cops Fatally Shoot Deaf Man as Neighbors Scream 'He Can't Hear You'

Quote:
Police officers fatally shot Magdiel Sanchez, 35, who is deaf, outside of his home in Oklahoma City, OK, on Tuesday night. When authorities arrived at Sanchez’s home investigating a hit-and-run, they found him on the porch carrying a metal walking stick. With little warning and as neighbors looked on shouting that he couldn’t hear them because he was deaf, one officer fired multiple shots at Sanchez.

The Associated Press reported that police officers Sgt. Chris Barnes and Lt. Matthew Lindsey arrived at Sanchez’s home after a car parked in the driveway matched the description of a vehicle involved in a hit-and-run near the neighborhood. However, Sanchez was not in the car when the accident occurred, his father was driving and had fled the scene of a collision that did not involve another person.

Officers apparently considered Sanchez’s walking stick, which the Oklahoma City Police Department first described as a stick and later a metal pipe, a weapon. Several neighbors yelled “he can’t hear you” as police officers demanded that Sanchez drop the so-called weapon. As Sanchez walked towards them, Barnes fired multiple shots at him and Lindsay fired his Taser. Both officers weren’t wearing body cameras.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:09 AM   #2
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He clearly had it coming for not obeying the cop. Suicide by cop clearly.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:10 AM   #3
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What, was the tazer just for good measure?


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Old 21st September 2017, 07:11 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I've heard it was a "pipe". I'm not defending the police or saying it's better or worse. Just pointing it out for accuracy. It shouldn't make a difference.

ETA: Oops, missed the line in your story. My fault.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:17 AM   #5
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As a rule deaf people should always have empty hands in public, having tools makes them too likely to be killed by cops.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:18 AM   #6
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:26 AM   #7
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The article is missing information about what he was doing with the walking stick... how he was yielding it during the confrontation. It does suggest that he didn't normally use it as a walking aid but rather as a ready weapon to be used against stray dogs when he went for walks in the neighborhood.

So it seems possible that the cops never saw the walking stick being used as a walking aid and instead it was being wielded strictly as a weapon.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:32 AM   #8
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Always an excuse. FFS a walking stick is not a deadly weapon. If you are a mighty armed cop and afraid of a stick, back away and deal with the situation.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:33 AM   #9
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Cops can't be too careful. That walking stick might have been loaded!
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:34 AM   #10
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More from The New York Times. It wasn't really a walking stick...

Originally Posted by New York Times
An Oklahoma City police officer fatally shot a man on Tuesday night despite pleas from neighbors that the man was deaf and could not hear the commands to drop a metal pipe he was holding, the authorities said.

The man, Madgiel Sanchez, was shot around 8:15 p.m. outside his home soon after the police responded there to investigate a hit-and-run accident. The first officer to arrive called for backup, pulled out his Taser and ordered Mr. Sanchez, 35, who was on his front porch, to drop the two-foot-long pipe he was clutching, the police said.

The officer’s commands did not register with Mr. Sanchez. He ambled off the porch toward the officer, waving the pipe in his right hand, according to the police and a witness...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/u...ting-deaf.html
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:37 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
More from The New York Times. It wasn't really a walking stick...



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/u...ting-deaf.html
NYT is quoting the departments statement which is what the original article did as well stating:

"Officers apparently considered Sanchez’s walking stick, which the Oklahoma City Police Department first described as a stick and later a metal pipe, a weapon."
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:37 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The article is missing information about what he was doing with the walking stick... how he was yielding it during the confrontation. It does suggest that he didn't normally use it as a walking aid but rather as a ready weapon to be used against stray dogs when he went for walks in the neighborhood.

So it seems possible that the cops never saw the walking stick being used as a walking aid and instead it was being wielded strictly as a weapon.
Are you saying he was fighting with stray dogs while they were there? Or that the cops knew he had fought stray dogs in the past?

Not sure how what he has used it for in other situations is relevant to this one.

Anyhoo, it seems he was deaf and unable to speak. He was walking towards to police according to the article and it seems unlikely he went all Darth Maul on them

This is one of the reasons the police should stop using guns as a first option. Not everyone can do what the cops tell them to. If they had both used tasers this would probably have ended better for everyone.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:39 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
NYT is quoting the departments statement which is what the original article did as well stating:

"Officers apparently considered Sanchez’s walking stick, which the Oklahoma City Police Department first described as a stick and later a metal pipe, a weapon."
I'm surprised they didn't just jump straight to sword or bazooka
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:41 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The article is missing information about what he was doing with the walking stick... how he was yielding it during the confrontation. It does suggest that he didn't normally use it as a walking aid but rather as a ready weapon to be used against stray dogs when he went for walks in the neighborhood.

So it seems possible that the cops never saw the walking stick being used as a walking aid and instead it was being wielded strictly as a weapon.
Yeah if only cops had tools besides guns to subdue people not holding firearms. A stick of their own maybe, or some type of spray, or an electronic shocking device that can be used independently of another officers gun.

Or how about they listen to the neighbours and not shoot innocent disabled people for no good reason.

I like the police and its a shame the US has such low standards, protects the morons and keeps repeating the same mistakes and drag the many good cops reputation down to the level of their lowest ungulate. This became plain stupid ages ago. The US should raise the damn bar. Dry cleaners near some US police stations must make a fortune from all the urine soaked panties that get dropped off there from police terrified of small dogs, autistic children with trucks, disabled people with walking aids and black people in general.

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Old 21st September 2017, 07:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Yeah if only cops had tools besides guns to subdue people not holding firearms. A stick of their own maybe, or some type of spray, or an electronic shocking device that can be used independently of another officers gun.
One of the officers fired a tazer. The other shot him dead. Seems they had conflicting assessments of the situation.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:48 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
NYT is quoting the departments statement which is what the original article did as well stating:

"Officers apparently considered Sanchez’s walking stick, which the Oklahoma City Police Department first described as a stick and later a metal pipe, a weapon."
But it's not a walking stick at all. Your OP title calls it a walking stick. A 24" metal pipe is not a walking stick for anyone other than those with dwarfism.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:49 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
One of the officers fired a tazer. The other shot him dead. Seems they had conflicting assessments of the situation.
Yeah one felt compelled to fire a taser and the other felt the need to compliment it with his gun, or maybe he was just trying to upstage the one with the taser or maybe he was ******** his pants and wanted to distract everyone from that fact by shooting a guy with a stick.

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Old 21st September 2017, 07:52 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Yeah one felt compelled to fire a taser and the other felt the need to compliment it with his gun
I thought it was the other way around, based on the OP.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:55 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Are you saying he was fighting with stray dogs while they were there? Or that the cops knew he had fought stray dogs in the past?

Not sure how what he has used it for in other situations is relevant to this one.

Anyhoo, it seems he was deaf and unable to speak. He was walking towards to police according to the article and it seems unlikely he went all Darth Maul on them

This is one of the reasons the police should stop using guns as a first option. Not everyone can do what the cops tell them to. If they had both used tasers this would probably have ended better for everyone.
It's highly relevant and you are not thinking.

If it's an actual walking stick (a walking aid because of walking disability) and he regularly uses it to help him, or even allow him to walk at all... then he is likely to use it for that purpose during his interaction with the cops. He may walk towards them using that stick to help him walk, or even use it as a prop-up while standing in place. In that situation it doesn't represent a weapon at all, nor is he wielding it as a weapon.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But it's not a walking stick at all. Your OP title calls it a walking stick. A 24" metal pipe is not a walking stick for anyone other those with dwarfism.
Got a citation for the 24" measurement? It isn't in the article linked in the title.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:57 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got a citation for the 24" measurement? It isn't in the article linked in the title.
It's in the NYT article.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:58 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got a citation for the 24" measurement? It isn't in the article linked in the title.
OMG, please read post #10. Try to help yourself.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:01 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
OMG, please read post #10. Try to help yourself.
And post number the article reports that earlier reports were incorrectly identified as a pipe. This means we can pick which ever one we want to further our agenda clearly.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:03 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I thought it was the other way around, based on the OP.
Then its even more stupid. Surely they could coordinate and communicate, hell even train competently for these situations. No gun in suspects hand means non lethal weapon first.
If non lethal weapon fails, is suspect immediately dangerous at a deadly force level? If yes, shoot. If no use other non deadly option.

It aint rocket surgery. Theres not really any point in having a non lethal option ready to go if the first action is to shoot a suspect to "stop"

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Old 21st September 2017, 08:07 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Surely they could coordinate and communicate
"Jerry, let me use my tazer"
"Sorry, Bob, I can't hear you over the sound of my gun firing."
"Well, I got to use these things to justify the expenditure." <ZAP>
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:08 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
"Jerry, let me use my tazer"
"Sorry, Bob, I can't hear you over the sound of my gun firing."
"Well, I got to use these things to justify the expenditure." <ZAP>
They couldn't hear anything because they were panicking as is their rights as cops. That is why they didn't hear the neighbors yelling about him being deaf and mentally handicapped.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:09 AM   #27
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Here's the important question: Did the guy who shot him yell, "Watch out! He's coming right for you!" before he shot? Because we know that makes it ok...


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Old 21st September 2017, 08:11 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Then its even more stupid. Surely they could coordinate and communicate, hell even train competently for these situations. No gun in suspects hand means non lethal weapon first.
If non lethal weapon fails, is suspect immediately dangerous at a deadly force level? If yes, shoot. If no use other non deadly option.

It aint rocket surgery. Theres not really any point in having a non lethal option ready to go if the first action is to shoot a suspect to "stop"
Yeh - Pretty Much

Even if it was a pipe and not a walking stick I don't think walking toward someone while carrying a pipe should be reasonable justification for killing them.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:11 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It's highly relevant and you are not thinking.

If it's an actual walking stick (a walking aid because of walking disability) and he regularly uses it to help him, or even allow him to walk at all... then he is likely to use it for that purpose during his interaction with the cops. He may walk towards them using that stick to help him walk, or even use it as a prop-up while standing in place. In that situation it doesn't represent a weapon at all, nor is he wielding it as a weapon.
How am I not thinking?

If you have anything that says he was using it in a threatening manner feel free to share.

What he has used it for in the past is irrelevant. It is only relevant if the cops knew he used it as a weapon or if he was actually using it as a weapon then and there. Holding a stick or bar is not a crime.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:12 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
Yeh - Pretty Much

Even if it was a pipe and not a walking stick I don't think walking toward someone while carrying a pipe should be reasonable justification for killing them.
Ah but he had something in his hands and didn't obey a cop, that is always a good reason to kill someone.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:14 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
How am I not thinking?

If you have anything that says he was using it in a threatening manner feel free to share.
Of course he was threatening. They told him to stay where was and he didn't. Not following police directions makes it a threat that deserves death.

I mean, he had a lead pipe. He may have had a gun. Or a rope. Or a candlestick. They couldn't take a chance that he had a candlestick in is pocket. He had to be shot.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:15 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This means we can pick which ever one we want to further our agenda clearly.
Who are you talking to?
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:20 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But it's not a walking stick at all. Your OP title calls it a walking stick. A 24" metal pipe is not a walking stick for anyone other than those with dwarfism.
1. There are walking canes, sticks, and staffs- they differ considerably in length and design. When I (over 6 ft tall) looked up proper sizing of canes I came up with somewhere between 2.3 and 2.5 feet. Therefore 24 inches does not rule out the object in the OP being a walking aid. I would also point out that a lot of people use short "walking sticks" just to steady themselves when climbing stairs or on uneven ground, as might have been the case here, to protect themselves against dog attacks.

2. Even if it was a "pipe" is there any information that Sanchez attempted to attack the police or any one else? Or acted aggressively in any manner? If what we do know proves accurate it is difficult to understand why the police officer used deadly force in this situation, and why they ignored the neighbors' attempts to explain Sanchez's non-reaction to their orders. Maybe there was a reason the police couldn't just back off, assess the situation, and come up with a non-lethal resolution, but we don't know of one yet. I'm willing to wait and find out.

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Old 21st September 2017, 08:20 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
They couldn't hear anything because they were panicking as is their rights as cops. That is why they didn't hear the neighbors yelling about him being deaf and mentally handicapped.
There is no mention of neighbors telling the cops that he is mentally handicapped.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:22 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
Yeh - Pretty Much

Even if it was a pipe and not a walking stick I don't think walking toward someone while carrying a pipe should be reasonable justification for killing them.
NYT says he was swinging it.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:23 AM   #36
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
Yeh - Pretty Much

Even if it was a pipe and not a walking stick I don't think walking toward someone while carrying a pipe should be reasonable justification for killing them.
Judge: "Officer Smith, could you tell me why you show the FedEx employee?"
Officer: "Your honour, he was wielding a box in a threatening manner and walker in my general direction!"
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:26 AM   #37
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
NYT says he was swinging it.
Given he was deaf and didn't talk, was he swinging it or just holding it while communicating?

But this does seem like basic policing, you see a tard with something in their hands and they are not doing what you tell them to, you shoot. No matter what nearby people are desperately telling you.

At least this time the cop could hit the broad side of a barn.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:26 AM   #38
Giordano
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
As a rule deaf people should always have empty hands in public, having tools makes them too likely to be killed by cops.
And never put their hands in their pockets, even if asked for ID. In fact the shouldn't even ever move their hands towards their pockets, or toward their waistband, or under their jacket. And never ever put their hands behind their backs. Of keep their hands anywhere below the tops of their heads.

And if you are a deaf Black man, you may wish to avoid going outside at all and just quiver under the covers of your bed, although even that may not protect you.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:27 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
NYT says he was swinging it.
Don't they always?
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:28 AM   #40
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
How am I not thinking?

If you have anything that says he was using it in a threatening manner feel free to share.
NYT says he was swinging it.


Quote:
What he has used it for in the past is irrelevant. It is only relevant if the cops knew he used it as a weapon or if he was actually using it as a weapon then and there. Holding a stick or bar is not a crime.
It matters if it was actually a walking stick and he needed it to walk. The cops would see him using it as a walking aid.

The reason why it's past use it relevant is because it informs us that it wasn't a walking stick... and the police would see that it wasn't a walking stick even though they don't know anything about its past use.

Quote:
Holding a stick or bar is not a crime.
When you walk towards a cop while swinging a 24" metal pipe it becomes a threat with a weapon.
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