Oklahoma Police Kill Deaf Man for the Crime of Holding a Walking Stick

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

And hers is a website advocating such clubs for joggers.

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/How-to-P...ing-or-Jogging

"4. Carry a walking stick or cane.

People alone without any defense are most vulnerable to a dog attack, especially elderly victims. Carry a walking stick or cane with you when you go on walks. It's not proven that this technique is successful because I have heard of incidents where witnesses come to the defense of a victim with a baseball bat or stick and the dog just doesn't let go.

However, it gives that immediate block and few seconds in between what could be a devastating first bite."

Now you have to worry about not being able to defend youself against dogs or being killed by cops. Seeing someone running with a club is a death sentence from the police after all.

All your jogging friends are dead then?sorry to hear that man.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Around here "fish wackers" are small and often brightly colored to avoid looking like a weapon. Almost as if someone understands they could be viewed as a weapon.

I'm not the kind of fisherman who color coordinates his fishing gear. A wooden stick is wood colored, even if someone has gone to the trouble of carving a handle and drilling a hole for a wrist strap.

People carry ****. Carrying **** while talking is not illegal. That cops can't properly handle people carrying **** while walking and talking is major failing of the cops, not the people who can carry **** walk and talk.

If you really think this is a good outcome, that this should be taught as best practices and not used a point that we can improve from, then we just view life differently. Police need to get better at their jobs before every jurisdiction is bankrupted by their incompetence.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by MikeG

It's know as a "priest" here. Linky

I like the name. Mine was bigger and heavier. And that's not just bragging.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

You often swing pipes at folks there?

I might gesture with it, that is enough to kill over clearly.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I'm not the kind of fisherman who color coordinates his fishing gear. A wooden stick is wood colored, even if someone has gone to the trouble of carving a handle and drilling a hole for a wrist strap.

People carry ****. Carrying **** while talking is not illegal. That cops can't properly handle people carrying **** while walking and talking is major failing of the cops, not the people who can carry **** walk and talk.

If you really think this is a good outcome, that this should be taught as best practices and not used a point that we can improve from, then we just view life differently. Police need to get better at their jobs before every jurisdiction is bankrupted by their incompetence.

Or people could not advance on police wroth what could be considered a weapon.

I've been in similar situations, it's not that hard.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Around here "fish wackers" are small and often brightly colored to avoid looking like a weapon. Almost as if someone understands they could be viewed as a weapon.

So how do you make a jogging club not look like a weapon? When is it specifically one.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

I might gesture with it, that is enough to kill over clearly.

So you often have police draw on you in home Depot?

I know it's not pc but if they are, I'd stop gesturing with the pipe.

[William Parcher]

Quote:

"He had this in his right hand and was holding it up," Capt. Bo Mathews said.

http://www.koco.com/article/deaf-non...ficer/12441389

[DreamingNaiad]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

I'd assume they were trying to close the distance in such a way that my action would be delayed enough they could effectively use the pipe. Screaming " you are gonna die mother ****ers " isn't a good strategy.

Did he shout that? According to neighbours he had to communicate through notes and mime.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

All your jogging friends are dead then?sorry to hear that man.

They seem to at least avoided cops so far.

[MikeG]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Or people could not advance on police wroth what could be considered a weapon.........

Agreed. But they absolutely should not wind up dead if they do, unless the life of the policeman/men is in immediate danger as a result, and there is no other way of dealing with the matter.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

So how do you make a jogging club not look like a weapon? When is it specifically one.

All of the sudden a jogging club is a thing. Okay I won't even argue that.

Mark it brightly, just like they do with most other things that could be seen as a weapon. The guy was deaf not blind he could work a spray paint can.

And if that doesn't work, drop the thing when someone points a gun at you. I've been there, unless you are intending combat drop anything and go prone.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Or people could not advance on police wroth what could be considered a weapon.

I've been in similar situations, it's not that hard.

And of course don't be deaf, and never let what happened to the cops here happen to you, by panicking and not hearing what is being shouted at you. Those are all death sentences.

[DreamingNaiad]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Or people could not advance on police wroth what could be considered a weapon.

I've been in similar situations, it's not that hard.

And if they can't understand the police or what is happening?

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad

Did he shout that? According to neighbours he had to communicate through notes and mime.

You didn't understand me did you?

The quote was why your image of some berserker with a club isn't right. That's how you die, you want to calmly get as close as possible.

If you don't intend combat, once someone has a weapon on you, drop everything and go prone.

[Giordano]

Originally Posted by William Parcher

It's as if you don't mind your own contradiction. You found that walking aids start at 2.3' and then say they could be 2.0'.


It was a pipe. The article says he ambled towards the cop(s) while swinging it. That is aggressive.

The exact sequence of events isn't prefectly clear from reading the articles. We know there was a Taser, but we don't know of its use or effect. The OP article can even have you thinking that he was Tasered after being shot to death...


Taser is fired simultaneous with bullets, or after bullets, or before bullets, or what?

No, I posted that the recommendations for me, at well over 6 feet, went from 2.3 to 2.5 for the kind of cane one pushes down on. Not that 2.3 feet was the minimum and applied to people of more normal height. More so, what I posted was specifically in reaction to your blanket statement that a 2 foot stick could not possibly be a walking cane for anyone but a pigmy. It could have been a walking aid. Or equally it could have been a stick that, as described up thread, the guy used to gesture, to point, and as protection against dogs.

The big question of course is does having a stick of any kind in your hands (in this case in front of one's own house) justify being shot to death by the police What if one is a plumber? Or just returned from baseball practice? Or carrying a broomstick? I've carried (even swung) sticks, pipes, rods, and poles of all kinds, widths, and lengths in public in areas near and far from my own home- was I risking my life each time should a LEO see me and feel threatened? Would being deaf and unable to respond to police commands as this guy justify me being shot? And remember- this guy hadn't committed any crime and the neighbors were trying to tell the cops that he was deaf.

As I indicated upthread facts may be revealed with time that provide a stronger justification for the cop shooting this guy. Okay - I haven't formed a permanent conclusion and I will be happy to modify it. But for now, based on the information currently available to us, it appears that yet another innocent person was killed by a jumpy cop. I seem to remember growing up that cops took pride in being emotionally strong and brave- ha that changed?

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Or people could not advance on police wroth what could be considered a weapon.

I've been in similar situations, it's not that hard.

Or police could be more aware of their surroundings.

I've been in similar situations, it's not that hard.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

All of the sudden a jogging club is a thing. Okay I won't even argue that.

Mark it brightly, just like they do with most other things that could be seen as a weapon. The guy was deaf not blind he could work a spray paint can.

And if that doesn't work, drop the thing when someone points a gun at you. I've been there, unless you are intending combat drop anything and go prone.

Yes the only people allowed to panic are the cops who draw their guns. They can refuse to hear things, but being confronted by some maniac with a gun, the public needs to keep a cool head at all times.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

They seem to at least avoided cops so far.

So then you are for the millionth time just making crap up. At least stock to the sorry when called out on it.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad

And if they can't understand the police or what is happening?

Then they deserve to die, only the police are ever allowed to not hear and understand what people are shouting.

[DreamingNaiad]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

And of course don't be deaf, and never let what happened to the cops here happen to you, by panicking and not hearing what is being shouted at you. Those are all death sentences.

The cops are the true victims, dont you know? And the wrist strap is what makes the pipe a weapon.

Basically, if you have any interaction with the cops you should just go limp and hope that doesn't make them panic and shoot you.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

And of course don't be deaf, and never let what happened to the cops here happen to you, by panicking and not hearing what is being shouted at you. Those are all death sentences.

Don't need to hear, he saw the cops, saw them aiming weapons. I couldn't hear the cop in my situation either but I sure as hell knew he wasn't just showing me his gun for the hell of it.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Or police could be more aware of their surroundings.

I've been in similar situations, it's not that hard.

They seemed to be on point, they asked for him to comply, he didn't. It stains credulity to think that someone would have no idea what the cops were asking of them in that situation.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

So then you are for the millionth time just making crap up. At least stock to the sorry when called out on it.

You are the one who shoots anyone with a stick to protect themselves from dogs, that is of course normal behavior for you I guess.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Yes the only people allowed to panic are the cops who draw their guns. They can refuse to hear things, but being confronted by some maniac with a gun, the public needs to keep a cool head at all times.

All cops are maniacs now? Please define maniac and show evidence that ALL cops fit this description.

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad

There is no difference between someone holding a pipe in America or Europe. If there is please explain what it is.

A shoe can be a deadly weapon. A pen. A fist. That is a pretty low bar you've set for killing people.

And for the umpteenth time the neighbours told the police he was deaf. Which it says in the articles. The ones you say shows it was a good shoot. So which is it? Shooting a deaf man is ok or not? Because that is condradictory.

American police routinely carry (and use) handguns.

I think that's the main difference that is relevant.

I would not even think of approaching a cop in the USA with a pipe made into a weapon.

The pipe made into a weapon might even be illegal where this happened, but I have not checked.

[DreamingNaiad]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

You didn't understand me did you?

The quote was why your image of some berserker with a club isn't right. That's how you die, you want to calmly get as close as possible.

If you don't intend combat, once someone has a weapon on you, drop everything and go prone.

Do you assume that everyone who doesn't do as they are told immediately is attempting to get into position to murder you?

My image is of a situation where many people were telling the cops that he was deaf and couldn't understand them. Which is what actually happened. Not this weird combat fantasy you seem to have.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad

The cops are the true victims, dont you know? And the wrist strap is what makes the pipe a weapon.

Basically, if you have any interaction with the cops you should just go limp and hope that doesn't make them panic and shoot you.

They do seem to be worse than bears. Playing dead really is the only option.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad

The cops are the true victims, dont you know? And the wrist strap is what makes the pipe a weapon.

Basically, if you have any interaction with the cops you should just go limp and hope that doesn't make them panic and shoot you.

If you are holding something and can't understand them, that is a damn fine Idea. Would have saved this guy's life.

[MikeG]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

All cops are maniacs now? Please define maniac and show evidence that ALL cops fit this description.

Where did you pull this from?

[Giordano]

Parcher,
You are distorting the descriptions to try to justify your reflexive defense of the cop.
"ambled toward the cops..." Ambled is not threatening:
"amble [am-buh l] to go at a slow, easy pace; stroll; saunter:
He ambled around the town."

"He had it in his right hand and was holding it up" Up as opposed to what? Up over his head as if to strike? Or up at chest or waist height as one might often do when carrying a stick or using it to gesture?

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

They seemed to be on point, they asked for him to comply, he didn't. It stains credulity to think that someone would have no idea what the cops were asking of them in that situation.

Yeah, this isn't on point. This is off the rails.

People not understanding cops is becoming a new cause of death.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad

Do you assume that everyone who doesn't do as they are told immediately is attempting to get into position to murder you?

My image is of a situation where many people were telling the cops that he was deaf and couldn't understand them. Which is what actually happened. Not this weird combat fantasy you seem to have.

I would if I had drawn a weapon and they were ignoring me.

Combat fantasy? Please suggest a better method of closing distance I'd you have more knowledge than myself.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by MikeG

Where did you pull this from?

His post in which he referred to a police officer with a drawn weapon as s maniac. He wasn't talking about the case in specific, read our exchange to clarify that.

[William Parcher]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

They seemed to be on point, they asked for him to comply, he didn't. It stains credulity to think that someone would have no idea what the cops were asking of them in that situation.

I think that his mental handicap may have prevented him from understanding that it was urgent that he drop the pipe on the ground. Having hearing ability is not necessary to understand that but having good mental faculty is necessary for that.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Yeah, this isn't on point. This is off the rails.

People not understanding cops is becoming a new cause of death.

And how do we mitigate this? If you don't understand, drop anything you are holding, and go prone. There is no situation in which this isn't a good option.

Unless you value your ego more than your life.

[LTC8K6]

http://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma...ection-21-1272

Looks like carrying the metal billy club is likely illegal, although it's a misdemeanor.

[DreamingNaiad]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

American police routinely carry (and use) handguns.

I think that's the main difference that is relevant.

I would not even think of approaching a cop in the USA with a pipe made into a weapon.

The pipe made into a weapon might even be illegal where this happened, but I have not checked.

So we agree that a person with a pipe is the same anywhere? It is just that US cops are more deadly?

Don't you think that is kind of awful? No one is asking the cops to lie back and be killed here. But they could have listened to the neighbours or tased him or backed up.

Also, out of curiosity is it the strap that makes it a weapon? I have never dealt with any weapons other than knives and hammers.

[MikeG]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Don't need to hear, he saw the cops, saw them aiming weapons. I couldn't hear the cop in my situation either but I sure as hell knew he wasn't just showing me his gun for the hell of it.

You know this for sure? I mean, it was night. You knew that though, didn't you? You wouldn't have just jumped to conclusions, and just automatically defended police killing people, would you. How was the scene lit? Were the police holding torches, relying on headlights, what? How do you think this may have affected the ability of their victim to determine who was invading and threatening his home?

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by William Parcher

I think that his mental handicap may have prevented him from understanding that it was urgent that he drop the pipe on the ground. Having hearing ability is not necessary to understand that but having good mental faculty is necessary for that.

If his disability is so bad he cannot understand that someone aiming a gun at him means to stop, he should be being watched or in an appropriate facility.