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Old 21st September 2017, 12:56 PM   #121
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Parcher,
You are distorting the descriptions to try to justify your reflexive defense of the cop.
"ambled toward the cops..." Ambled is not threatening:
"amble [am-buh l] to go at a slow, easy pace; stroll; saunter:
He ambled around the town."

"He had it in his right hand and was holding it up" Up as opposed to what? Up over his head as if to strike? Or up at chest or waist height as one might often do when carrying a stick or using it to gesture?
The cop felt threatened, that doesn't mean that most people would have. For example if it fine to freak out if you find out someone has a concealed carry license if you are a cop. But shooting someone as a private citizen because they are legally carrying a gun, that is right out.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:56 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
His post in which he referred to a police officer with a drawn weapon as s maniac. He wasn't talking about the case in specific, read our exchange to clarify that.
A police officer. A. Singular. You leapt, somehow, to ALL police officers. That's what I was questioning, as you well know.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:57 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You know this for sure? I mean, it was night. You knew that though, didn't you? You wouldn't have just jumped to conclusions, and just automatically defended police killing people, would you. How was the scene lit? Were the police holding torches, relying on headlights, what? How do you think this may have affected the ability of their victim to determine who was invading and threatening his home?
In a city street? Not overly much. The guy is deaf not blind. If the visibility was so bad, how did they know he had a pipe?

You are suggesting the visibility was so bad he didn't see anything indicating they were cops, but good enough for them to see and panic at the pipe.

That simply doesn't make sense.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:58 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yeah, this isn't on point. This is off the rails.

People not understanding cops is becoming a new cause of death.
But cops not understanding people, still the non cops fault.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:59 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I think that his mental handicap may have prevented him from understanding that it was urgent that he drop the pipe on the ground. Having hearing ability is not necessary to understand that but having good mental faculty is necessary for that.
I mean the cops were also deaf apparently.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:00 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
In a city street? Not overly much. The guy is deaf not blind. If the visibility was so bad, how did they know he had a pipe?

You are suggesting the visibility was so bad he didn't see anything indicating they were cops, but good enough for them to see and panic at the pipe.

That simply doesn't make sense.
No, it was you who leapt to the conclusion that he could see them. I'm not suggesting anything, just questioning an assertion you made. If you can back that up, fine. If you can't, you should withdraw it.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:01 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
http://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma...ection-21-1272

Looks like carrying the metal billy club is likely illegal, although it's a misdemeanor.
Clearly what he should have carried is a gun to defend himself that is the american answer.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:02 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
A police officer. A. Singular. You leapt, somehow, to ALL police officers. That's what I was questioning, as you well know.
Just re read the quote in case I missed it.

The words they, and cops were used with no indication of a single police officer or the 2 from this instance.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:02 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
So we agree that a person with a pipe is the same anywhere? It is just that US cops are more deadly?

Don't you think that is kind of awful? No one is asking the cops to lie back and be killed here. But they could have listened to the neighbours or tased him or backed up.

Also, out of curiosity is it the strap that makes it a weapon? I have never dealt with any weapons other than knives and hammers.
The reports I have read suggested that the police could not hear the people.

If they did hear what was said, I don't see how that mitigates the immediate danger.

Under high stress, you tend to block out everything but what is perceived as the immediate threat to you. IOW, you don't hear what other people around you are saying.

I do believe modifying the pipe with a leather strap definitively turns it into a weapon, rather than just a pointing device.

I could be wrong, and the story can change, of course.

These days we sometimes get a very different story a couple days after the initial flurry of dramatic claims.
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Last edited by LTC8K6; 21st September 2017 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:02 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
If his disability is so bad he cannot understand that someone aiming a gun at him means to stop, he should be being watched or in an appropriate facility.
And what about the mental disabilities of the cops to not understand english when it is shouted at them?
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:03 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Just re read the quote in case I missed it.

The words they, and cops were used with no indication of a single police officer or the 2 from this instance.
Well go and read it again, and see if you can reasonably make the leap to ALL police officers. That's all..........every single one in the USA. Because that's what you did.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:03 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Parcher,
You are distorting the descriptions to try to justify your reflexive defense of the cop.
"ambled toward the cops..." Ambled is not threatening:
"amble [am-buh l] to go at a slow, easy pace; stroll; saunter:
He ambled around the town."
We see the term "amble" in one article but it isn't in quotes. It's attributed to a witness but it could be a reporter using his own word. Articles indicate that he came down the front porch stairs and approached the cops who were on the lawn. The "amble" term may have been the witness describing the descent down the stairs. We don't know.

Quote:
"He had it in his right hand and was holding it up" Up as opposed to what? Up over his head as if to strike? Or up at chest or waist height as one might often do when carrying a stick or using it to gesture?
Well, holding the pipe down at your side is less threatening than holding it up in the air. Also it had a lanyard. Holding it by the lanyard and letting it hang by your side is also less threatening as compared to gripping the pipe as if it were ready for use.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:04 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Just re read the quote in case I missed it.

The words they, and cops were used with no indication of a single police officer or the 2 from this instance.
You are generalizing it to all cops, why can't I? It isn't like the ones here did anything wrong, by your own words any cop would act in a similar fashion in this situation.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:04 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And how do we mitigate this? If you don't understand, drop anything you are holding, and go prone. There is no situation in which this isn't a good option.

Unless you value your ego more than your life.
It gets tough to walk around downtown if I have to go prostate for every cop who makes eye contact.

It is not about my ego, it is about training professionals to be professional.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:04 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly what he should have carried is a gun to defend himself that is the american answer.
He might be ineligible to own a firearm in OK if he is mentally challenged?

After all, he saw cops all around him shouting things and did not perceive the necessity to drop his pipestickbilly.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:05 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
He might be ineligible to own a firearm in OK if he is mentally challenged?

After all, he saw cops all around him shouting things and did not perceive the necessity to drop his pipestickbilly.
Now you're doing it too.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:06 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I would if I had drawn a weapon and they were ignoring me.

Combat fantasy? Please suggest a better method of closing distance I'd you have more knowledge than myself.
I dont view things that way. "Method of closing distance"? Is that just walking towards someone? When people walk towards me I dont think they are trying to stealth attack me.

TBH I thought people only spoke that way when they played too many first person shooters or were fighting the Taliban or something.

There was no combat here so I'm not sure what you are talking about. There was just a man who couldn't understnd the police and the police who were told he couldn't understand them.

Then one officer thought a taser was enough but the other one thought deadly force was needed.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:06 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The reports I have read suggested that the police could not hear the people.
Exactly he was panicking. That is something only the police are ever allowed to do when confronted with someone with a weapon. Panic like that when it is a cop with a gun and you deserve to die.
Quote:
Under high stress, you tend to block out everything but what is perceived as the immediate threat to you. IOW, you don't hear what other people around you are saying.
Still a good reason to kill someone if you are a cop.

I am waiting for the person who kills a cop and only saw the gun and panicked like these cops to, to get off for not noticing the uniform.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:08 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
He might be ineligible to own a firearm in OK if he is mentally challenged?

After all, he saw cops all around him shouting things and did not perceive the necessity to drop his pipestickbilly.
And we have again only cops allowed to panic. They get a to ignore what people are shouting but seeing people pointing guns at you isn't something that should disrupt the thinking of anyone but a cop.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:10 PM   #140
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I can't wait to see the body cams that will verify all of this and put it into perspective.

/s
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:11 PM   #141
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It appears that carrying a club of any sort is illegal in some US states. Making a club type weapon can also be illegal.

Sometimes you would get in trouble for the club, but not a shotgun, for example.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:13 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I can't wait to see the body cams that will verify all of this and put it into perspective.

/s
Read the last quoted line in the OP.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:13 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The reports I have read suggested that the police could not hear the people.

If they did hear what was said, I don't see how that mitigates the immediate danger.

Under high stress, you tend to block out everything but what is perceived as the immediate threat to you. IOW, you don't hear what other people around you are saying.

I do believe modifying the pipe with a leather strap definitively turns it into a weapon, rather than just a pointing device.

I could be wrong, and the story can change, of course.

These days we sometimes get a very different story a couple days after the initial flurry of dramatic claims.
Yeah. One of the neighbours said somewhere that the cops turned around while he was yelling but they could just have been reacting to movement at that point.

It seems a bit odd that you cant carry a billypipestick on your own property but I cant see anything in the statute that says you can.

If they could hear I think they should have tried the taser first. Expecting deaf people to comply with verbal commands is just ... bizarre.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:17 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Or people could not advance on police wroth what could be considered a weapon.

I've been in similar situations, it's not that hard.
The rules for what one has to do to avoid being shot by a cop are exponentially increasing every day. The advocates of these rules appear to view the police as rabid animals- one must not do anything that even a fevered paranoid mind scared-out-of-its-wits might interpret as threatening. Do not carry anything that might in any way be mistaken by such as person as a weapon (a cell phone, a stick, or perhaps even a sharpened pencil). God help you if by any chance you are playing with a toy gun: you better have great reflexes because should a cop unexpectedly show up will have literally 1 to 2 seconds to respond to his command to drop it before you will be shot dead. Do not walk toward the police if they come up to you , even if they hail you or ask you a question. Do not turn and walk away from them either. Certainly don't run, even if all you did was jay walk. Den't gesture in any way. Don't say anything that might be considered a verbal challenge. Do not curl your fingers in a way that might be considered a fist. Do not put your hands in your pockets or even move your hands toward your pockets (or waist band or jacket or behind your back). If they want ID from your wallet they will ask (of course that doesn't mean they won't shot you anyway when you reach for it). If you are next to your car do not reach into it even if the police ask you for your license and registration. If you are already in your car do not reach for the glove compartment or sun visor (again, not even if the police ask you for a document). And above all- stay calm and don't look jittery- jittery will only get you shot!

But I understand why this list of "rules" keeps growing- the number of innocent people being shot dead by cops for highly questionable reasons continues to grow every month and the people who feel that they always must defend police, even incompetent police, have to continuously invent new rules for why it was always the dead person's fault. "He shouldn't have..." Well, somehow I don't remember this was the standard for most of my life- I expected the cops to be cool and professional and to be on my side protecting me; not viewing me and most everyone else as an incredibly scary threat that might need to bee gunned down on the slightest provocation.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:20 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And we have again only cops allowed to panic. They get a to ignore what people are shouting but seeing people pointing guns at you isn't something that should disrupt the thinking of anyone but a cop.
As far as I know, panic is an allowable defense in general and can be used in court.

You might, for example, cause someone to panic and do something they would not otherwise have done.

If that is actually the case, the panic would be a defense at trial.

Sort of like the difference between an immediate crime out of passion, and a planned event. You generally get a lighter sentence for the immediate reaction type of crime.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:21 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It appears that carrying a club of any sort is illegal in some US states. Making a club type weapon can also be illegal.

Sometimes you would get in trouble for the club, but not a shotgun, for example.
So, in some places and in some circumstances, you'd be within the law to aim a shotgun at someone, but if you turned it around and held it by the barrel and raised it over your head in such a manner as to use it as a club, you'd be breaking the law. Wow.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:21 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Yeah. One of the neighbours said somewhere that the cops turned around while he was yelling but they could just have been reacting to movement at that point.

It seems a bit odd that you cant carry a billypipestick on your own property but I cant see anything in the statute that says you can.

If they could hear I think they should have tried the taser first. Expecting deaf people to comply with verbal commands is just ... bizarre.
The TASER was apparently ineffective due to a single prong hit.

That may be why the gun was fired?
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:23 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Read the last quoted line in the OP.
I'm assuming the "/s" in Dr Keith's post means "/ sarcasm". You may have missed it.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:24 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by New York Times
Julio Rayos, a neighbor who lives a few homes away and knew the man was deaf, said he saw the confrontation unfold and sensed trouble.

He said that he ran toward the officer with his wife and his 12-year-old daughter, all three of them screaming that the man could not understand the officer.

“Don’t kill him, he’s deaf,” his daughter yelled. “Don’t do it!”

About six other neighbors joined in, frantically trying to get the officer’s attention. But less than a minute after the episode began, a second officer arrived and immediately pulled out his handgun, Mr. Rayos said. While people continued to scream, the first officer fired his Taser at Mr. Sanchez, while the second fired his handgun, the police said.
The bolded part suggests to me that the cop had his Taser pointed at Sanchez but wasn't firing it. That's probably why she says don't do it. That first cop seems to only draw and use his Taser. The second cop is the shooter and it's described as happening right away after he arrives.

It's reported that the Taser and gun were fired simultaneously but maybe that's not perfectly accurate. We don't know. It may have gone something like...

"Drop the pipe"
He's still holding it up and approaching.
Taser fired.
No effect and he's still holding up the pipe and approaching.
Gunshots.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:24 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So, in some places and in some circumstances, you'd be within the law to aim a shotgun at someone, but if you turned it around and held it by the barrel and raised it over your head in such a manner as to use it as a club, you'd be breaking the law. Wow.
I wouldn't recommend it if you're not white. Hell, admitting to legally owning a firearm and having it near you can lethal if you're not white.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:26 PM   #151
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So, in some places and in some circumstances, you'd be within the law to aim a shotgun at someone, but if you turned it around and held it by the barrel and raised it over your head in such a manner as to use it as a club, you'd be breaking the law. Wow.
AFAIK it's never legal to aim a shotgun at someone. That is brandishing or threatening.

It's legal to shoot in defense of your life, but not to threaten or brandish.

All of these scenarios also have to take into account what a jury would think.

A jury is not going to convict you of using the shotgun as a club in a self defense scenario, so the DA is not even going to charge you.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:26 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So, in some places and in some circumstances, you'd be within the law to aim a shotgun at someone, but if you turned it around and held it by the barrel and raised it over your head in such a manner as to use it as a club, you'd be breaking the law. Wow.
No, we haven't gone that silly, yet.

The club is only illegal if it is a weapon. Doggie deterrent isn't a weapon. Just as a chef can walk the streets with their full set of knives but a kid with a similar knife in their boot may get arrested.

You can carry a gun in my state but you can not "brandish" the weapon. Pointing the gun would be brandishing.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:27 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The bolded part suggests to me that the cop had his Taser pointed at Sanchez but wasn't firing it. That's probably why she says don't do it. That first cop seems to only draw and use his Taser. The second cop is the shooter and it's described as happening right away after he arrives.

It's reported that the Taser and gun were fired simultaneously but maybe that's not perfectly accurate. We don't know. It may have gone something like...

"Drop the pipe"
He's still holding it up and approaching.
Taser fired.
No effect and he's still holding up the pipe and approaching.
Gunshots.
Go on WP, just invent your own scenario to justify the unjustifiable. I'm sure if you can twist things enough you'll persuade everyone here.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:30 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
........You can carry a gun in my state but you can not "brandish" the weapon. Pointing the gun would be brandishing.
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
.......It's legal to shoot in defense of your life, but not to threaten or brandish..........
Loving this. You can shoot a gun, but you aren't allowed to point it!
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:33 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Loving this. You can shoot a gun, but you aren't allowed to point it!
That's correct.

You can defend your life by firing the gun at the specific threat to your life.

You cannot point the gun at people to "run them off" or "warn" them, or intimidate them, etc.

You cannot fire "warning shots".

Again though, you also have to figure in a jury's reaction.

A jury is not going to convict a person for threatening an intruder with a firearm.

There are also "citizen's arrests" regarding a citizen directly observing a felony and arresting the felon.
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Last edited by LTC8K6; 21st September 2017 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:36 PM   #156
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There's something significantly wrong with America is again what this demonstrates.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:39 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That's correct.......
Of course it *********** is. In Wonderland.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:39 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
There's something significantly wrong with America is again what this demonstrates.
I don't think this case demonstrates that, not that I disagree with your premise.

This was just an unfortunate situation caused mainly by the failure to drop what any reasonable person would consider a weapon.

Unless the story changes substantially...
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:39 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Go on WP, just invent your own scenario to justify the unjustifiable. I'm sure if you can twist things enough you'll persuade everyone here.
Mike, it's a terrible event and shouldn't have happened. I think it boils down to the dangerous mix of cops and the mentally ill. Here a man doesn't understand the urgency of dropping a metal pipe and worse he is holding it up while approaching. It doesn't matter that he is deaf because he does have his eyes for vision. But he is lacking the mental faculty used to preserve his own well-being and even his life.

It's a damn shame these things happen, Mike.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:43 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Of course it *********** is. In Wonderland.
I think I read somewhere that in California it's legal to have a shotgun under your bed ready to go, but illegal to have a billy club under your bed ready to go.

We do have 50 different states with different rules and laws.

What you can do in one state with a firearm, can get you a long stretch in another state.
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