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Old 21st September 2017, 01:47 PM   #161
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Thanks WP. That's you best post in this thread.

-

BTW........ "metal pipe". Let's have the specifications of that. Because, technically, an aluminum walking pole, small diameter and with thin walls, is a metal pipe. So is, say, a steel fountain pen body. So is an aluminium tent pole, or a blind man's white stick. The people who appear to have called it a metal pipe so far are the ones who have a vested interest in having this object thought of as a weapon. Have we got a decent picture of it yet?
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:47 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That's correct.

You can defend your life by firing the gun at the specific threat to your life.
Since we know that having a weapon in the presence of a police officer is tantamount to an invitation to them to shoot you, one might infer a specific threat to life...

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Old 21st September 2017, 01:49 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's only if you think the article was being very precise about the exact length of the object. Now, why would you assume that?
And also that Giordano mentioned that he was over 6' tall. It's quite possible for someone shorter to have a shorter appropriate one.

And if you have something in your hand, and someone calls over to you and you can't hear because you are deaf, it's quite possible that you would not think to put it down, and when you walk, your hands tend to swing.

All in all, it's probably best to just emigrate. But at least the second amendment protected him.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:49 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
BTW........ "metal pipe". Let's have the specifications of that. Because, technically, an aluminum walking pole, small diameter and with thin walls, is a metal pipe.
Quite. When I broke my ankle I was issued with a pair of crutches, each of which was essentially a metal pipe, though with certain fittings that, viewed from the wrong angle, might make it resemble a gun. Fortunately, I never encountered an American police officer while using it.

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Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:50 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I think I read somewhere that in California it's legal to have a shotgun under your bed ready to go, but illegal to have a billy club under your bed ready to go.......
How about a baseball bat? That's a club. What if you're a baseball player? You can have it in your room, just not under your bed. Honest to goodness, the law is an ass.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:51 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Do not carry anything that might in any way be mistaken by such as person as a weapon (a cell phone, a stick, or perhaps even a sharpened pencil).
And do not be associated with the care of a learning disabled person carrying such an item either. Apparently that's a valid reason too.

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Old 21st September 2017, 01:56 PM   #167
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The obvious problem is that in the US everybody and their grandmother has a gun (or an arsenal of guns), and therefore everybody needs to be afraid of other people having and, God forbid, using guns all the time.

And somehow people are less afraid if they have guns themselves, so they can defend themselves against all the other people with all the guns everywhere.

So cops tend to shoot at anything that moves towards them, because somehow a weapon could come into play.

It would be better if at some point society realised that fewer guns means less fear of guns for everybody. Which would require some sort of team thinking and refraining from thinking about oneself first and foremost and only.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:00 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It's a stick, FFS. How have you people got so stuffed up about policing that people with more than half a brain will try to defend police killing someone who is holding a stick? Even if it was a 4 foot long piece of heavy iron bar the man should not have ended up dead. Your policing is screwed up utterly, and christ knows, so is your society, if people like this end up getting killed by the police. Goodness only knows how anyone can defend this.

Your police should get overseas. Go to Europe. Why don't we hear of Belgian or French of German or British police killing people willy-nilly who don't do as they are told? Because they are taught to de-escalate the situation. To not become the target. Who was this guy "threatening"? Yeah, that's right.........only the police, (in their warped minds). Normal police would back off and get him to cool down, and would never have pointed a gun in the first place. If it escalated to violence, he'd have been tasered. For the life of me I have no notion as to why otherwise sane and sensible posters would tolerate, nay defend, the ridiculous killing of civilians in America which the police do in (literally) uncounted numbers day in, day out. It's nauseating.
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The USA is not Europe. Stop comparing the two.

I am not waiting to see what the guy with the stick or pipe with the strap handle is going to do when he gets to me. To me, it's a deadly weapon and I can't take the chance of waiting to decide what to do.

If I knew ahead of time that he was deaf and developmentally challenged it would change the way I react.
Why should we not compare the US to Europe? Because the US has thousands of amateurish police forces that are too small for anything useful? The US also has police forces with professionalism but they are not the problem.

Fun fact, the UK used to be a gun culture

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7056245.stm
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:12 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Around here "fish wackers" are small and often brightly colored to avoid looking like a weapon. Almost as if someone understands they could be viewed as a weapon.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So how do you make a jogging club not look like a weapon? When is it specifically one.

Color it brightly, apparently.

Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
All of the sudden a jogging club is a thing. Okay I won't even argue that.

Mark it brightly, just like they do with most other things that could be seen as a weapon. The guy was deaf not blind he could work a spray paint can.

<snip>

See? As long as it's colored brightly it isn't a weapon.

Not a weapon.



Also not a weapon.



Or this. It must not be a weapon, either.



Definitely not a weapon.

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Old 21st September 2017, 02:18 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Thanks WP. That's you best post in this thread.

-

BTW........ "metal pipe". Let's have the specifications of that. Because, technically, an aluminum walking pole, small diameter and with thin walls, is a metal pipe. So is, say, a steel fountain pen body. So is an aluminium tent pole, or a blind man's white stick. The people who appear to have called it a metal pipe so far are the ones who have a vested interest in having this object thought of as a weapon. Have we got a decent picture of it yet?
From an NBC report:

"Lt. Matthew Lindsey saw Sanchez on the porch, holding a 2-foot-long metal pipe "wrapped in some type of material" with a small leather loop on the end of it, Capt. Mathews (not the cop involved in the shooting) said. "

Metal pipe wrapped in fabric? How would you know metal is inside the fabric? Leather loop? Sounds like it's a regular device used by the person, with a loop there so as not to drop it, maybe? Not quite a weapon - like a baseball bat might be - really.

If I stand upright and lower my hand it ends up about 30" above the ground. Not far from 24". Who measured the 24"? Had it been 36" that would be about walking stick length. Has the 'pipe' been recovered and entered into the chain of evidence?
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:18 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Don't need to hear, he saw the cops, saw them aiming weapons. I couldn't hear the cop in my situation either but I sure as hell knew he wasn't just showing me his gun for the hell of it.

Not for very long.
Quote:
About six other neighbors joined in, frantically trying to get the officer’s attention. But less than a minute after the episode began, a second officer arrived and immediately pulled out his handgun, Mr. Rayos said. While people continued to scream, the first officer fired his Taser at Mr. Sanchez, while the second fired his handgun, the police said.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:21 PM   #172
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And of course pink AK47 produces results on Google.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:21 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
They seemed to be on point, they asked for him to comply, he didn't. It stains credulity to think that someone would have no idea what the cops were asking of them in that situation.

Something is certainly staining it.

Something brown and sticky.

I'm sure the cop who whipped out his gun and started blasting away without hesitation has plenty of spare underwear to remedy that problem.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:21 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not for very long.
It looks as though one should also add "don't have neighbours screaming at the police officers, explaining the situation" to Giordano's exponentially rising list of things to avoid doing if you come across a significant proportion of US police officers.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:22 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
If his disability is so bad he cannot understand that someone aiming a gun at him means to stop, he should be being watched or in an appropriate facility.

Congratulations. You have taken 'blaming the victim' to a new and possibly unparalleled level.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:25 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The TASER was apparently ineffective due to a single prong hit.

That may be why the gun was fired?

Since they seem to have been fired nearly simultaneously that would mean that the shooter had incredibly fast reflexes as well as nearly magical powers of observation.

"Oh m'god!!! Only one prong hit!

BLAM.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:27 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
His post in which he referred to a police officer with a drawn weapon as s maniac. He wasn't talking about the case in specific, read our exchange to clarify that.
Nobody is saying about all cops, however, given the free pass that dangerously incompetent cops seem to get, because they assume that all innocent members of the public are somehow dangerous then why not turn the logic on its head.



Given the relative populations of police and the general public, and the number of innocent people killed by police (several hundred a year, but we don't know how many) compared to the number of innocent cops killed by the public, the danger looks to be overwhelmingly in one direction.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:42 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The TASER was apparently ineffective due to a single prong hit.

That may be why the gun was fired?
I read that they fired at the same time.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:43 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
In a city street? Not overly much. The guy is deaf not blind. If the visibility was so bad, how did they know he had a pipe?

You are suggesting the visibility was so bad he didn't see anything indicating they were cops, but good enough for them to see and panic at the pipe.

That simply doesn't make sense.
I'm generally a supporter of the police, but, since this happened after 8 pm, it's just possible that the police had squad car lights (head and/or spot lights) shinning on Sanchez. It doesn't take much imagination to see how the police could see what they thought was a threat just fine, but Sanchez might not have been able to see much detail at all. I can even imagine holding up one or both hands to try and block the light.

I find it both frustrating and very, very sad that I feel like I have to plan my moves very careful in the event of an encounter with LEO.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:45 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
I read that they fired at the same time.
Maybe the one who used a gun was very quick at assessing that the taser shot wouldn't be effective against that nonthreatening person?
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:57 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Mike, it's a terrible event and shouldn't have happened. I think it boils down to the dangerous mix of cops and the mentally ill. Here a man doesn't understand the urgency of dropping a metal pipe and worse he is holding it up while approaching. It doesn't matter that he is deaf because he does have his eyes for vision. But he is lacking the mental faculty used to preserve his own well-being and even his life.

It's a damn shame these things happen, Mike.
It boils down to a dangerous cop.

A cop who lacked the mental faculty to resolve this without bloodshed

The other cop seemed fine with a taser so what was this guys problem? It's a damn shame that the officer didn't even bother trying anything other than shooting someone.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:58 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Maybe the one who used a gun was very quick at assessing that the taser shot wouldn't be effective against that nonthreatening person?
And then it was his time to shine!
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Old 21st September 2017, 03:05 PM   #183
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Tax payers money would be much better spent if US cops would be equipped with functional brains instead of expensive and letal weapons.
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Old 21st September 2017, 04:22 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Tax payers money would be much better spent if US cops would be equipped with functional brains instead of expensive and letal weapons.
I agree, from yesterdays news in Southbridge Massachusetts.
Quote:
In the gritty town of Southbridge, Police Chief Shane Woodson has only good things to say about the 1033 program.

“This is one of the rifles, one of the M16’s we've got from the 1033 program,” Woodson said, displaying a former machine gun that’s been retrofitted so it fires only one round each time the trigger is pulled.“Totally stripped down, it’s about $1,000.”

Through the 1033 program, though, the Southbridge Police Department got 23 of these rifles for free back in 2013. It also acquired a Hummer, and 100 pairs of winter boots.

...

Asked why Southbridge police need this type of weaponry, Woodson cites several recent incidents, including one at a local school.

“[A boy] was holding … it was a stapler, but he’d raised it up quickly to a young girl,” Woodson said. “She’s a kid, 13, 14 years old, no idea what was happening, and we had to respond with our vests and M16s. You don’t want to go into a situation where the person, the suspect has an assault weapon and you don’t.”
That's one chief who could use a functional brain, seriously a reporter asks why you need M16s and you mention a kid with a stapler.
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Old 21st September 2017, 04:30 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
I'm generally a supporter of the police, but, since this happened after 8 pm, it's just possible that the police had squad car lights (head and/or spot lights) shinning on Sanchez. It doesn't take much imagination to see how the police could see what they thought was a threat just fine, but Sanchez might not have been able to see much detail at all. I can even imagine holding up one or both hands to try and block the light.

I find it both frustrating and very, very sad that I feel like I have to plan my moves very careful in the event of an encounter with LEO.

It's very simple. Sadhatter has explained it all.

Whenever you are within range of a cop's firearm (or might become in range) you need to instantly lie prone on the ground.

Just don't put your hands in the air. That's grounds for getting shot as well.
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Old 21st September 2017, 04:41 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You didn't understand me did you?

The quote was why your image of some berserker with a club isn't right. That's how you die, you want to calmly get as close as possible.

If you don't intend combat, once someone has a weapon on you, drop everything and go prone.
Or, you know, walk backwards at the same rate they're waking forwards.

That should cover it.
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Old 21st September 2017, 04:43 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
I agree, from yesterdays news in Southbridge Massachusetts.


That's one chief who could use a functional brain, seriously a reporter asks why you need M16s and you mention a kid with a stapler.

I bet they needed to break out all 23 of the M16s.

A middle school kid with a stapler can seem pretty threatening.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:03 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Do you know how many runners and joggers I know who carry sticks to fend off dogs? I am sure you would shoot them too.
Granted I live in Mexico, but the ONLY way one goes running is with a stick of some sort to fend off dogs, especially in the mornings or evening/nights.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:23 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
I agree, from yesterdays news in Southbridge Massachusetts.


That's one chief who could use a functional brain, seriously a reporter asks why you need M16s and you mention a kid with a stapler.


Is the US some bizzaro parallel world where things are not just backwards but insanely backwards? All this must be a poe or a parady. And William Parcher must be playing devils advocate when he implies that he expects police to be more mentally deficient than the people they are supposed to be protecting.

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Old 21st September 2017, 07:43 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
And William Parcher must be playing devils advocate when he implies that he expects police to be more mentally deficient than the people they are supposed to be protecting.
I didn't say that. But in bizarro parallel worlds, I did say that.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:49 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I didn't say that. But in bizarro parallel worlds, I did say that.
deaf guy with a stick gets shot by a deaf cop with a gun. I hardly think that is mentally competent. And you are defending it.

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Old 21st September 2017, 07:55 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
deaf guy with a stick gets shot by a deaf cop with a gun.
No, a deaf neighbor shot Sanchez right after he handed a cop a twig.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:58 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I would have shot someone coming at me with a pipe.

OK now how about if you were not alone. And you had several other non-lethal means of attack at your disposal?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:37 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Or, you know, walk backwards at the same rate they're waking forwards.

That should cover it.
That's resisting arrest - could get you shot
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:38 AM   #195
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I assume there is something in the US police training that stops them backing off. Even firing the Taser seemed unnecessary. Just back off, call for support, talk him down. A couple more minutes and the neighbours who knew him would have defused things.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:56 AM   #196
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An opinion from a Swedish law enforcer: A pipe isn't a knife, nor a gun. A pipe (especially a short one) in the hands of a man gesturing wildly calls for de-escalation, and unless the subject is immediately threatening injury to a person or substantial damage to property, it might be best to back up completely and assess the situation. Swedish police is trained to recognize various disabilities, and to always keep in mind that they might enounter someone with various forms of disabilities or diseases that might make normal behavior look abnormal.

This was, in my opinion, a bad shoot and should be prosecuted.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:57 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Swedish police is trained to recognize various disabilities, and to always keep in mind that they might enounter someone with various forms of disabilities or diseases that might make normal behavior look abnormal.
This, I think, goes to the heart of the problem. What is the function of the police, if not to protect the weaker members of society from the excesses of the stronger and more lawless? People with disabilities are exactly the sort of people the police should be there to help and protect. So when the police try to excuse a shooting because the victim had a disability or abnormality, they've got the whole thing ass-backwards. The shooting isn't less culpable because they've shot someone with a disability; it's more culpable, because they've killed someone they exist to protect.

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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:14 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
That's resisting arrest - could get you shot

I was talking about the policeman, to be fair.

Someone posited that being walked towards (rather than being charged at) was good reason to shoot someone as they may be trying to subtly get close enough to deliver a clobbering. I was just trying to point out that, rather than shoot, if someone is closing distance, there's nearly always the option to maintain distance by walking backwards.

I get the feeling that some posters and a lot of LEO's believe that taking a backwards step means they have a tiny penis or something.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:53 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I was talking about the policeman, to be fair.

Someone posited that being walked towards (rather than being charged at) was good reason to shoot someone as they may be trying to subtly get close enough to deliver a clobbering. I was just trying to point out that, rather than shoot, if someone is closing distance, there's nearly always the option to maintain distance by walking backwards.

I get the feeling that some posters and a lot of LEO's believe that taking a backwards step means they have a tiny penis or something.
The problem with walking backwards while maintaining focus on a threat fromt the front is at least two-fold. First, you tend to target focus as it is, meaning you have limited perception of what goes on around you, and if someone is coming at you from behind. Walking backwards exacerbates this problem. Second, you are put off balance and you become distracted with managing your footing.

The best way to exercise a retreat is to put your opponent on the back-foot as well. We have several techniques for this, including what we call a "stop-kick", a "bågspännare" which is a flat-handed sudden push in an assailant's chest, combined with a rearward motion, and a "stop push" which is a more forceful push aimed at sending the assailant reeling.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:08 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Why should we not compare the US to Europe? Because the US has thousands of amateurish police forces that are too small for anything useful? The US also has police forces with professionalism but they are not the problem.

.....
That appears to the cause of the problems. Wannabe tough guys get to join tiny police forces which do not train de-escalation, because they are already of wannabe tough guys who think it an affront to their toughness that they should just be patient and at times back off. But they are not real tough guys, hence in the face of what might, just, possibly be a threat to life, they shoot to kill.

A study to see if the rate of shooting is higher in police forces that are smaller and if there is a link between training received and the instance of shooting is needed.
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