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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:15 AM   #201
3point14
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The problem with walking backwards while maintaining focus on a threat fromt the front is at least two-fold. First, you tend to target focus as it is, meaning you have limited perception of what goes on around you, and if someone is coming at you from behind. Walking backwards exacerbates this problem. Second, you are put off balance and you become distracted with managing your footing.

The best way to exercise a retreat is to put your opponent on the back-foot as well. We have several techniques for this, including what we call a "stop-kick", a "bågspännare" which is a flat-handed sudden push in an assailant's chest, combined with a rearward motion, and a "stop push" which is a more forceful push aimed at sending the assailant reeling.

I was talking about maintaining a distance, not what to do once distance has been closed.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:19 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I was talking about maintaining a distance, not what to do once distance has been closed.
I know. I'm just letting you know that it isn't always an option, and even if it is, a good option.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:27 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I know. I'm just letting you know that it isn't always an option, and even if it is, a good option.

Yes, I know. It is, however, often an option, often a good one and, if there are two of you to the one of them, often a very good option.

Certainly preferable to shooting a lot of, if not most of the time.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:39 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
OK now how about if you were not alone. And you had several other non-lethal means of attack at your disposal?
I'm a civilian. I'm limited to what I can carry on me in public, less limited when I am on my own property.

I'm not sure I'm allowed to have "non-lethal means of attack", or any "means of attack" at my disposal.

I can have items for self defense, within a lot of limitations.
I always have a good folding knife on me somewhere.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...GS_14-269.html
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:47 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
All of the sudden a jogging club is a thing. Okay I won't even argue that.

Mark it brightly, just like they do with most other things that could be seen as a weapon. The guy was deaf not blind he could work a spray paint can.

And if that doesn't work, drop the thing when someone points a gun at you. I've been there, unless you are intending combat drop anything and go prone.
So if the "pipe" (actually some rigid object wrapped in a fabric) had been brightly colored the shooting would not have occurred? Really? That's your argument?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:48 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And how do we mitigate this? If you don't understand, drop anything you are holding, and go prone. There is no situation in which this isn't a good option.

Unless you value your ego more than your life.
Victim blaming extraordinaire. Well done.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:53 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Victim blaming extraordinaire. Well done.
At what point does the civilian start to have some responsibility for what happens in an encounter with the police?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:54 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That appears to the cause of the problems. Wannabe tough guys get to join tiny police forces which do not train de-escalation, because they are already of wannabe tough guys who think it an affront to their toughness that they should just be patient and at times back off. But they are not real tough guys, hence in the face of what might, just, possibly be a threat to life, they shoot to kill.

A study to see if the rate of shooting is higher in police forces that are smaller and if there is a link between training received and the instance of shooting is needed.
From a different thread on another police killing:

Originally Posted by Darat
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And what is the population of Scotland?

It is much easier to keep the peace with less people.
This was already addressed by Abooga in this very thread . . .

Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
https://theconversation.imgix.net/fi...=format&w=1000

I just found this

Annual fatal police shootings per million residents.

From http://theconversation.com/why-do-am...ean-cops-49696
Interesting statistic in that article regarding smaller populations:

"...Dangers in small places

More than a quarter of deadly force victims were killed in towns with fewer than 25,000 people despite the fact that only 17% of the US population lives in such towns.
...."
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:57 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
At what point does the civilian start to have some responsibility for what happens in an encounter with the police?
How about, at the point where he breaks the law? "Looking like he may have been about to attack me" is not a crime in any jurisdiction I can think of.

Dave
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:59 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
How about, at the point where he breaks the law? "Looking like he may have been about to attack me" is not a crime in any jurisdiction I can think of.

Dave

Especially seeing as standing stock still and dropping everything one is holding seems to be about the only way, sometimes, to not appear as if one may be about to attack.

Wearing bulky clothing might intimidate a few of the more nervous LEOs though, so that could be a problem.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:00 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
How about, at the point where he breaks the law? "Looking like he may have been about to attack me" is not a crime in any jurisdiction I can think of.

Dave
Especially when they aren't actually looking as though they're about to attack you.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:01 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
How about, at the point where he breaks the law? "Looking like he may have been about to attack me" is not a crime in any jurisdiction I can think of.

Dave
It may not be a crime, but it is a defense to the charge of murder.

In the USA, there is no requirement to wait to actually be attacked by someone carrying a pipestickclub.

If a reasonable person could have perceived the situation as an attack, then you would probably either not be charged, or not be convicted by a jury.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:05 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
At what point does the civilian start to have some responsibility for what happens in an encounter with the police?
It seems that all the responsibility lies with the civilian. It seems blatantly obvious that the police is not serving and protecting anyone but themselves and thus should be expected to use lethal force given any action that possibly could be perceived as a threat.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:07 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
How about, at the point where he breaks the law? "Looking like he may have been about to attack me" is not a crime in any jurisdiction I can think of.

Dave
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It may not be a crime, but it is a defense to the charge of murder.

In the USA, there is no requirement to wait to actually be attacked by someone carrying a pipestickclub.

If a reasonable person could have perceived the situation as an attack, then you would probably either not be charged, or not be convicted by a jury.
The trouble is that it often seems like the threshold is an unreasonably paranoid person with uncorrected myopia and a phobia of people not wearing the right uniform.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:07 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
........In the USA, there is no requirement to wait to actually be attacked by someone carrying a pipestickclub........
You seem to be swallowing the police line on this rather easily. Is anyone any closer to actually knowing what he was carrying, bearing in mind that the police have a vested interest in claiming that it was a weapon?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:11 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It may not be a crime, but it is a defense to the charge of murder.

In the USA, there is no requirement to wait to actually be attacked by someone carrying a pipestickclub.
Or, indeed, a walking stick.

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If a reasonable person could have perceived the situation as an attack, then you would probably either not be charged, or not be convicted by a jury.
Well then, it seems to me that the reductio ad absurdum is complete. It appears that if a US citizen behaving entirely legally encounters a police officer and is shot dead, the citizen must in any circumstances be considered partly responsible for their own death unless they have gone out of their way to avoid presenting any possible appearance of danger to the police officer and have succeeded in doing so. If the police officer is nervous enough to consider any action to be an attack, there is literally nothing to do to avoid being shot.

It seems that the relationship between the citizenry and the police is one of "Do what we say or we'll shoot you, and if we don't like the way you're doing it we may just shoot you anyway." As I've said before, this is not the relationship between the citizens of a free country and their police force. It is the relationship of the citizens of a conquered country and a hostile army of occupation (given the proviso, based on a response last time I said it, that we're talking about the army of a country that has a poor human rights record).

Dave
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:25 AM   #217
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Quote:
About six other neighbors joined in, frantically trying to get the officer’s attention. But less than a minute after the episode began, a second officer arrived and immediately pulled out his handgun, Mr. Rayos said. While people continued to scream, the first officer fired his Taser at Mr. Sanchez, while the second fired his handgun, the police said.

Capt. Bo Mathews, a spokesman for the Oklahoma City Police Department, said Wednesday that the second officer, Sgt. Christopher Barnes, fired multiple shots and that Mr. Sanchez, who was hit more than once, was pronounced dead in front of his house.

Mr. Rayos said he heard more than six shots in rapid succession. “They seemed like they just came to shoot him,” he said. “It happened so quickly.”
How is it that thousands of military personnel can adhere to strict ROE in hostile country stating "Do not fire until fired upon" while LE is driving up, drawing their gun and pumping someone full of lead? More than six shots? Really??
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:45 AM   #218
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Darat, thanks

http://theconversation.com/why-do-am...ean-cops-49696

US cops are more likely to kill because;

- of more guns and guns are more deadly than tazers, batons and other methods of arrest and restraint.
- US cops are are trained to expect guns, so they misidentify other hand held items as guns more often and so shoot more often.
- US cop's training is more "combat orientated" and there is less training in de-escalation.
- US cops are protected by a much lower legal threshold for imminent threats and harm than in Europe. There is also an allegation of racism supporting the police, whereby the white courts are more likely to side with white police than black criminals.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:49 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You seem to be swallowing the police line on this rather easily. Is anyone any closer to actually knowing what he was carrying, bearing in mind that the police have a vested interest in claiming that it was a weapon?
All I've spotted is that the police originally identified it as a stick, later changing that to pipe. If the original i.d. came from the police at the scene then it suggests they believed they were up against someone armed with a wooden stick.

Also that the victim often carried it around with him as he was nervous of the many stray dogs in the area. Personally I wouldn't be inclined to lug a substantial piece of metal around for that purpose, preferring something wooden. A 2' length of copper plumbing pipe would be pretty light I suppose, but then you'd have some faffing to do to attach the leather strap. Meanwhile a lot of walking sticks come with a strap attached and are made of lightweight tubular metal.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:17 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You seem to be swallowing the police line on this rather easily. Is anyone any closer to actually knowing what he was carrying, bearing in mind that the police have a vested interest in claiming that it was a weapon?
IMHO, that's very simple. The officers involved chose to not activate their bodycams, so we don't have the video to judge. The only reasonable option is to assume the least threatening scenario.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:08 AM   #221
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I was actually involved in a somewhat-similar case years ago.

We got a call of a “burglary in progress”. The female caller said that a man was trying to break in to her front door. She further said he had a gun. That’s how the call was put out to us.
Two of us responded.
The other guy got there first, and while we were enroute the dispatcher re-iterated that the suspect, a tall white male, was armed.
When I got there, the “suspect” was advancing on the other officer, who had drawn his revolver. The guy was tall, disheveled, and was waving his arms spasmodically and uttering inarticulate sounds. He kept advancing on the officer even though he was literally staring down the barrel of a gun.
When I pulled up, he stopped, and began making “writing” motions. We both realized the guy was a deaf/mute.
The other copper put his gun away (the homeowner was by this time leaning out the door yelling “that’s him, that’s him!”) and we got him some paper.

Turns out the guy was a homeless Good Samaritan who had found the lady’s wallet downtown on the street. He’d hitchhiked and taken buses all the way out to west county to return it, since he couldn’t very well call...
And came very close to getting shot for his trouble.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:26 AM   #222
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If I ever do nothing wrong in the US I hope you are the cop that deals with me.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:27 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
IMHO, that's very simple. The officers involved chose to not activate their bodycams, so we don't have the video to judge. The only reasonable option is to assume the least threatening scenario.

The police department spokesman claimed they weren't wearing body cams.

Quote:
Neither officer was wearing a body camera at the time of the incident, Mathews said. One of the officers was a supervisor and the other was in a senior position on his shift, Mathews said, and the department does not yet have enough body cameras for every officer.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/21/us/pol...rnd/index.html
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:36 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You seem to be swallowing the police line on this rather easily. Is anyone any closer to actually knowing what he was carrying, bearing in mind that the police have a vested interest in claiming that it was a weapon?
That line is not related to the story, but to such a situation in general.

But I agree that it's bothersome that we don't know exactly what the item was in the case of the deaf man.

Seems like an easy thing for the police or the media to confirm.

It also seems like if it actually was a metal pipe with a lanyard, the police would want to show us that item in support of their claims.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:37 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
The police department spokesman claimed they weren't wearing body cams.
That's good, now we don't have to worry about anything in the video contradicting the policeman or adding any more clarity to what went so craptastically wrong in this case. We will be spared having to learn how this could have been handled better and can just praise these brave officers for their good shooting. One of them even hit the target squarely. No further training necessary.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:41 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Or, indeed, a walking stick.



Well then, it seems to me that the reductio ad absurdum is complete. It appears that if a US citizen behaving entirely legally encounters a police officer and is shot dead, the citizen must in any circumstances be considered partly responsible for their own death unless they have gone out of their way to avoid presenting any possible appearance of danger to the police officer and have succeeded in doing so. If the police officer is nervous enough to consider any action to be an attack, there is literally nothing to do to avoid being shot.

It seems that the relationship between the citizenry and the police is one of "Do what we say or we'll shoot you, and if we don't like the way you're doing it we may just shoot you anyway." As I've said before, this is not the relationship between the citizens of a free country and their police force. It is the relationship of the citizens of a conquered country and a hostile army of occupation (given the proviso, based on a response last time I said it, that we're talking about the army of a country that has a poor human rights record).

Dave
That was for a civilian shooting another civilian, not the police.

The police have their own policies, which vary among the thousands of police departments in the USA.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:43 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I was actually involved in a somewhat-similar case years ago.

We got a call of a “burglary in progress”. The female caller said that a man was trying to break in to her front door. She further said he had a gun. That’s how the call was put out to us.
Two of us responded.
The other guy got there first, and while we were enroute the dispatcher re-iterated that the suspect, a tall white male, was armed.
When I got there, the “suspect” was advancing on the other officer, who had drawn his revolver. The guy was tall, disheveled, and was waving his arms spasmodically and uttering inarticulate sounds. He kept advancing on the officer even though he was literally staring down the barrel of a gun.
When I pulled up, he stopped, and began making “writing” motions. We both realized the guy was a deaf/mute.
The other copper put his gun away (the homeowner was by this time leaning out the door yelling “that’s him, that’s him!”) and we got him some paper.

Turns out the guy was a homeless Good Samaritan who had found the lady’s wallet downtown on the street. He’d hitchhiked and taken buses all the way out to west county to return it, since he couldn’t very well call...
And came very close to getting shot for his trouble.
And that's how 99.99% of such encounters go.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:44 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I was actually involved in a somewhat-similar case years ago.

We got a call of a “burglary in progress”. The female caller said that a man was trying to break in to her front door. She further said he had a gun. That’s how the call was put out to us.
Two of us responded.
The other guy got there first, and while we were enroute the dispatcher re-iterated that the suspect, a tall white male, was armed.
When I got there, the “suspect” was advancing on the other officer, who had drawn his revolver. The guy was tall, disheveled, and was waving his arms spasmodically and uttering inarticulate sounds. He kept advancing on the officer even though he was literally staring down the barrel of a gun.
When I pulled up, he stopped, and began making “writing” motions. We both realized the guy was a deaf/mute.
The other copper put his gun away (the homeowner was by this time leaning out the door yelling “that’s him, that’s him!”) and we got him some paper.

Turns out the guy was a homeless Good Samaritan who had found the lady’s wallet downtown on the street. He’d hitchhiked and taken buses all the way out to west county to return it, since he couldn’t very well call...
And came very close to getting shot for his trouble.
I think that cops like you and the other one in that story are ill-served by the attitude of many police unions, where they try to defend actions of incompetents and other people who never should be police officers.

There is a difference between looking after legitimate interests and providing near-blanket approval of the actions individual members.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:50 AM   #229
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Nothing is going to change because the power cops have to kill, with little chance of any legal recourse against them, is a power most will not allow to be sacrificed. Gun owners, those who have guns for self defence, also want to know the odds are heavily stacked in their favour if they shoot. Hence the low level of threat in the USA, for which deadly force as a response is acceptable.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:58 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That was for a civilian shooting another civilian, not the police.

The police have their own policies, which vary among the thousands of police departments in the USA.
We were discussing at what point a person becomes partly responsible for the police shooting them. I took the points you were raising in that discussion to be relevant to it; my apologies if they weren't intended to be so. What, then, are typical police policies for the point at which someone shot by an officer becomes responsible for their own death?

Dave
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:04 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
Yeh - Pretty Much

Even if it was a pipe and not a walking stick I don't think walking toward someone while carrying a pipe should be reasonable justification for killing them.
He felt his life was threatened by the presence of a swarthy Mexican (probable illegal alien) with a deadly weapon. That's a good enough reason as any to execute him. The officer who defend his life should be given a medal.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:05 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
And that's how 99.99% of such encounters go.
I'm sure that the family of the man in this incident feel better in the knowledge that most people in this situation aren't killed.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:14 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I'm sure that the family of the man in this incident feel better in the knowledge that most people in this situation aren't killed.

We only worry about the .01% when making tax policy.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:28 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
We were discussing at what point a person becomes partly responsible for the police shooting them. I took the points you were raising in that discussion to be relevant to it; my apologies if they weren't intended to be so. What, then, are typical police policies for the point at which someone shot by an officer becomes responsible for their own death?

Dave
I don't know.

As I sit I am under the jurisdiction of three different police forces and they each likely have their own policies and their own training. It's also likely that at least one of the forces does not use body cams or have Tasers.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:38 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by NewsOK
(Police Chief) Citty also said that he would release a picture of the makeshift weapon would be released once Barnes (the shooter) had been interviewed by homicide detectives.
We will see a photo.

My prediction: It will be a metal pipe (approx 24") with attached lanyard.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:40 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We will see a photo.

My prediction: It will be a metal pipe (approx 24") with attached lanyard.
I have a metal pipe at home, which is telescopic and can easily be shortened to approx. 24" long, with an attached lanyard. I call it a "walking stick".

Dave

ETA: Incidentally, there are many different types of metal.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:44 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
<snip>

A study to see if the rate of shooting is higher in police forces that are smaller and if there is a link between training received and the instance of shooting is needed.

Good luck with that.

For some reason we don't seem able to even get police departments to comply with federally mandated reporting requirements for how many people they shoot.

Gonna be kinda hard to accumulate data for a study about anything at all, much less who shoots the most compared to their training. (Which would be a whole 'nother set of data we don't have.)
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:46 AM   #238
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
ETA: Incidentally, there are many different types of metal.
Yep, and that's why some members of this forum will not be satisfied with a photo. They will demand a certified metallurgical analysis.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:47 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I have a metal pipe at home, which is telescopic and can easily be shortened to approx. 24" long, with an attached lanyard. I call it a "walking stick".

Dave

ETA: Incidentally, there are many different types of metal.

I hope, for your sake, that it is brightly colored.

If it isn't you might want to think twice about using it to walk anywhere outside your house.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:52 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I hope, for your sake, that it is brightly colored.

If it isn't you might want to think twice about using it to walk anywhere outside your house.
Dave is in the UK. A solicitor was famously shot by police marksmen when it turned out that he had a chair leg in a carrier bag, but that was decades ago and caused a major inquiry.
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