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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:31 AM   #81
Porpoise of Life
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Very well then, never mind.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:31 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You keep asking me why I type "why only white people?" when this is what the article is making clear. Again, it implies that this behaviour that they abhor is something only white people are capable of. It makes a point that is needless, considering the fact that all people are capable of being dismissal and ignorant. There are easier and less seemingly bigoted ways to for the OP to make their point.



Of course the premise re: black men is racist, everything that anyone could possibly ever say about a black man is surely going to be racist.

As for the black women, their plight is one shared by many women all over the world of all colours. In many countries, white girls are sought after for sexual reasons, and treated like trophies. Much like bigotry and generalization goes both ways, so does the mistreatment of women. It's not exclusive to any black community. This is just another intentionally controversial article for the sake of it.




The entire article highlights one group of people as being victimized, when all across the world, people of every colour share the same bloody issues, it's just that people add more weight to the plight of the black community. It's intentionally constructed to bait the sort of argument that is taking place in this thread.
I didn't mean gay as in homosexual, I just meant it as, you know, lame, crappy, bad.

I didn't put up with this **** in high school and I don't put up with it now.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:32 AM   #83
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This is why outlandish headlines are reaching a (or really reached a while ago) toxic effect on the stories themselves. In just a few (often grammatically dubious) words, they utterly bury the lede.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:50 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
This is why outlandish headlines are reaching a (or really reached a while ago) toxic effect on the stories themselves. In just a few (often grammatically dubious) words, they utterly bury the lede.
This I agree with, and is a great example of why I despise this kind of thinking.

If we frame everything in a certain way we will never get to the root of the problem. People will get to attack people they dislike and "vent" but the problem will remain, and worse be made larger.

The real issue is that people of all types tend to minimize the struggles of other people. This can be combated by people coming together, not by demonizing one group or another. And certainly not by being dickheads.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:02 AM   #85
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"I'm not going to talk with you about the issue you were interested in discussing, because you framed it wrong."
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:15 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
"I'm not going to talk with you about the issue you were interested in discussing, because you framed it wrong."
Do you often want to engage with folks that open by insulting you?

Now that you have read that post, tiki if your reply would be different if I started with "hey you *********** idiot".
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:33 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
What do you mean why only white people. The entire point is that the behavior they abhor in (some) white people that dismiss their experiences with racism is how (some) straight black males treat the experiences of black women. The behavior is shared and that is pointed out, specifically to nudge the reader to introspection on how they perceive others.

As to the reaction here, it's not what I would expect. In an article about black women, I think Mumbles is the only one to reference their plight. In an article that has other points to discuss, only the title is being spoken about. A number of people here have an issue with the title, refer to it as racist, and yet I haven't even seen an argument about if the premise against black men is racist. Is catcalling worse is the black community? Are black women sexualized more or at a younger age than others?
I would suggest that it is. I've seen far too many black men (and women) write of a grown man having sex with girls as young as ten as "she's just fast". I know of street gangs that had a reputation for gang-raping young girls. Plenty of people defend R. Kelly. Yes, people rioted for Joe Paterno was fired, and that statue of him is back, but not so much Jerry Sanduski.

*pauses to punch the air, or a pillow or something*

And black *and* a few white women I know have, when speaking of it, said that they get catcalled, followed, or groped by black dudes, not white dudes. And yeah, I've seen people say "hey, what's the problem with a compliment?" Hell, I used to be one of them, until I decided to *listen*.

Yes, there are other places where people are treated *worse*. But this is something I see in *my* neighborhoods, we're still a very segregated country. I'm right in the mix of it, and so I can do something to help. And so I discuss it with guys that are growing up, correct it when they start down that path, and *especially* call out the people trying to justify child rape. I skipped that Jay Z/R. Kelly collab, and I really like Jay Z. And I'll call people out when they start bashing LGBT people, and talk about that hoteps and savages attacking Jemele Hill for *tweeting* about this story - but not the dude who actually wrote it. And I fully support this analogy.

Folks can get angry about the title if they want - it's not even for them, and I'm not shocked at all that so many people are acting like it was. That's why the analogy works.

Last edited by Mumbles; 22nd September 2017 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:42 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I would suggest that it is. I've seen far too many black men (and women) write of a grown man having sex with girls as young as ten as "she's just fast". I know of street gangs that had a reputation for gang-raping young girls. Plenty of people defend R. Kelly. Yes, people rioted for Joe Paterno was fired, and that statue of him is back, but not so much Jerry Sanduski.

*pauses to punch the air, or a pillow or something*

And black *and* a few white women I know have, when speaking of it, said that they get catcalled, followed, or groped by black dudes, not white dudes. And yeah, I've seen people say "hey, what's the problem with a compliment?" Hell, I used to be one of them, until I decided to *listen*.

Yes, there are other places where people are treated *worse*. But this is something I see in *my* neighborhoods, we're still a very segregated country. I'm right in the mix of it, and so I can do something to help. And so I discuss it with guys that are growing up, correct it when they start down that path, and *especially* call out the people trying to justify child rape. I skipped that Jay Z/R. Kelly collab, and I really like Jay Z. And I'll call people out when they start bashing LGBT people, and talk about that hoteps and savages attacking Jemele Hill for *tweeting* about this story - but not the dude who actually wrote it. And I fully support this analogy.

Folks can get angry about the title if they want - it's not even for them, and I'm not shocked at all that so many people are acting like it was. That's why the analogy works.
More flies with honey than vinegar man.

If your goal is to say "people suck" and have all your like minded friends agree ,way to go. If it is to actually do something you are failing.

You might not want to have to be diplomatic, but if you want to effect change you are going to have to be.

Also by your logic you have no right to get upset about racist literature, after all, it's "not for you".

Anyone remember the "don't be a dick" terms from a few years back? Maybe we should get back to that.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:51 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
"I'm not going to talk with you about the issue you were interested in discussing, because you framed it wrong."
- "Hey, white people! Stop being oppressive and shut up when I speak!"
- "Wow, I suddenly have the urge to discuss this topic with you!"

Does that sound likely to happen?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:02 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's mostly white people who dismiss claims of police violence or harassment of against black men (eg. - many, many threads on this board).
Given that I live in a majority Latino/Hispanic part of the US, south of I-10 in Texas, I thank you for the humor, albeit unintentional, embedded in your post. Having read all of your posts in this thread, I do appreciate your PoV and I think your heart's in the right place.
Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You posted that ridiculous article and thought you'd just get a well done, mate?
It's called trolling, and this is the internet. Three pages of response, so at least a passing grade.
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Which is why I find it terribly misguided to say that failure to address this issue is "white" behavior. I'm not the one who drums me out of the conversation.
The double standards involved in the so-called "dialogue" are getting larger as time goes on.
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Why do black people get so defensive when I say they are all criminals? I mean obviously I don't mean every single black person.
Thanks for the laugh that induced, though humor that pointed will offend some people.
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Do you often want to engage with folks that open by insulting you?

Now that you have read that post, tiki if your reply would be different if I started with "hey you *********** idiot".
A point missed in modern "public discussion" I think.
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Anyone remember the "don't be a dick" terms from a few years back? Maybe we should get back to that.
We should, but I think it's been lost in the noise.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:05 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
There is literally no reason to start worrying about saying 'not all white people', because that is a given.
I disagree. The premise of the article depends on the stereotype for its impact. The moment you acknowledge that it's not all people, and that race is not a determining factor, the article loses its potency. Its entire effect depends on its audience having a stereotypical view of white people.

What's more, the privilege doctrine is a doctrine that rejects the "not all" idea. It doesn't matter if you think that you're not one of the privileged, not one of the microagressive. Privilege doctrine demands that you set aside your privileged ideas of exception, and submit. Shut your mouth. Give up your place.

This is because privilege doctrine is a doctrine of submission that can never be sated. It is not a doctrine of freedom, of liberation. It is not a doctrine of equality or tolerance. As soon as the premise is accepted, that straight white males must submit to everyone else, more privilege must be found, and more groups must be made to submit. Homosexuals are more privileged than transsexuals, and must submit. Straight black males are more privileged than almost everyone else, and must submit. Privilege doctrine must find ever more thinly-sliced privilege groups to exact submission from.

In principle, we are asked to submit to the idea of the doctrine itself. In practice, we are asked to submit to whoever can set themselves up as an arbiter of the doctrine. In time, we will find that there is no more asking for submission, only mandatory obedience to the arbiters of privilege.

Last edited by theprestige; 22nd September 2017 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:07 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Given that I live in a majority Latino/Hispanic part of the US, south of I-10 in Texas, I thank you for the humor, albeit unintentional, embedded in your post. Having read all of your posts in this thread, I do appreciate your PoV and I think your heart's in the right place. It's called trolling, and this is the internet. Three pages of response, so at least a passing grade. The double standards involved in the so-called "dialogue" are getting larger as time goes on. Thanks for the laugh that induced, though humor that pointed will offend some people. A point missed in modern "public discussion" I think. We should, but I think it's been lost in the noise.
To me it all boils down to don't ask others to do something you won't do yourself. I always thought that was a pretty good way to go about doing things.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:11 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I disagree. The premise of the article depends on the stereotype for its impact. The moment you acknowledge that it's not all people, and that race is not a determining factor, the article loses its potency. Its entire effect depends on its audience having a stereotypical view of white people.

What's more, the privilege doctrine is a doctrine that rejects the "not all" idea. It doesn't matter if you think that you're not one of the privileged, not one of the microagressive. Privilege doctrine demands that you set aside your privileged ideas of exception, and submit. Shut your mouth. Give up your place.

This is because privilege doctrine is a doctrine of submission that can never be sated. It is not a doctrine of freedom, of liberation. It is not a doctrine of equality or tolerance. As soon as the premise is accepted, that straight white males must submit to everyone else, more privilege must be found, and more groups must be made to submit. Homosexuals are more privileged than transsexuals, and must submit. Straight black males are more privileged than almost everyone else, and must submit. Privilege doctrine must find ever more thinly-sliced privilege groups to exact submission from.

In principle, we are asked to submit to the idea of the doctrine itself. In practice, we are asked to submit to whoever can set themselves up as an arbiter of the doctrine. In time, we will find that there is no more asking for submission, only mandatory obedience to the arbiters of privilege.
Is the concept of sin but retooled.

Everyone is a sinner? Check
Sins of the father impacting the son. Extra check the bible only says 3 generations.
Others crimes are worse than the crimes of the in group. Check

I could go on and on, but the point is it is just as *********** stupid.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:14 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Is the concept of sin but retooled.
It is exactly that, but informed by the exact sort of thing that brought about segregation of black people, only reversed.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:18 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
More flies with honey than vinegar man.

If your goal is to say "people suck" and have all your like minded friends agree ,way to go. If it is to actually do something you are failing.

You might not want to have to be diplomatic, but if you want to effect change you are going to have to be.

Also by your logic you have no right to get upset about racist literature, after all, it's "not for you".
I don't think you can call it racist when you're actually doing the exact thing the analogy is about.

And dude, it's literally addressed to "us" straight cisgender black guys, and how "we" are often a problem for other black people and how "we" should think about "our" frequent hypocrisy in that regard. It's a message for one group - the one addressed above.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:21 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It is exactly that, but informed by the exact sort of thing that brought about segregation of black people, only reversed.
Another way I put it, is the difference between being equality focused and being nice.

Equality is holding group a in the same regard as group b ,being nice is holding one group higher.

Being nice is great when it is done out of free will, but if forced it creates resentment which boils over into hated. I honestly think we have a moral imperative to make people value equality. If we force people to be nice though we are taking sorry term gains over any lasting solutions.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:23 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I don't think you can call it racist when you're actually doing the exact thing the analogy is about.

And dude, it's literally addressed to "us" straight cisgender black guys, and how "we" are often a problem for other black people and how "we" should think about "our" frequent hypocrisy in that regard. It's a message for one group - the one addressed above.
So you would have no problem with articles asking white people to stop acting like blacks? I've read quite a few, and they are not very pic friendly.

But then again by your own logic you would have no right to complain.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:24 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I don't think you can call it racist when you're actually doing the exact thing the analogy is about.

And dude, it's literally addressed to "us" straight cisgender black guys, and how "we" are often a problem for other black people and how "we" should think about "our" frequent hypocrisy in that regard. It's a message for one group - the one addressed above.
And no better way to get that point across than to equate such people with white people?

Hey, brothers, you be actin' like crackers!

Very astute.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:26 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I don't think you can call it racist when you're actually doing the exact thing the analogy is about.
Oh, yes you can, since racism isn't about whether the racist is making accurate claims.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:29 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
And no better way to get that point across than to equate such people with white people?

Hey, brothers, you be actin' like crackers!

Very astute.
Is no different than calling things "gay" whether it is targeting the group or not you have turned the group designation into an insult.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:36 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
This is why outlandish headlines are reaching a (or really reached a while ago) toxic effect on the stories themselves. In just a few (often grammatically dubious) words, they utterly bury the lede.
I think it s a clever headline. it is good use of repetition.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:38 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
So you would have no problem with articles asking white people to stop acting like blacks? I've read quite a few, and they are not very pic friendly.

But then again by your own logic you would have no right to complain.
The article actually says that no, not all white people are racist, but a lot are dismissive of claims of racism (which is true - again, the folks around Dylann Roof, the mom of that guy that plowed his car into people at that clan rally, many people in every thread about police shootings here), or make themselves the center of the conversation when nobody actually called them racist (true - this exact thread).

And then it makes an analogy that many straight black men act the exact same way towards black women, girls, and LGBT folk (Very, *very* true). Some are dangerous, many are dismissive or make it about themselves. It's actually a well-deserved slap at all the black guys out there that are hypocritical in this regard.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:39 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Is no different than calling things "gay" whether it is targeting the group or not you have turned the group designation into an insult.
It's a disgustingly ignorant way for the author to get a point across, and for people to act like it was the only valid way to do it is telling.

If it was the other way around, this thread would be overflowing with people complaining, more so than it is now, for sure.

Articles like this are just race-bait garbage, which people like to dress up as being innocent commentaries on reality.

If people want to talk about privilege, then I'd say it must surely be a privilege for a bigot to be able to be openly racist and ignorant and yet be able to totally get away with it because they're not white.

It's okay, it's not racist, I'm just highlighting an issue between black men and black women by comparing those black men with the dirty-ass white people they despise. Nothing racist about that.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:42 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The article actually says that no, not all white people are racist, but a lot are dismissive of claims of racism (which is true - again, the folks around Dylann Roof, the mom of that guy that plowed his car into people at that clan rally, many people in every thread about police shootings here), or make themselves the center of the conversation when nobody actually called them racist (true - this exact thread).

And then it makes an analogy that many straight black men act the exact same way towards black women, girls, and LGBT folk (Very, *very* true). Some are dangerous, many are dismissive or make it about themselves. It's actually a well-deserved slap at all the black guys out there that are hypocritical in this regard.
That's your opinion, I think it's super gay.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:44 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The article actually says that no, not all white people are racist, but a lot are dismissive of claims of racism
Another statistic that is plucked from between the arse-cheeks of logic.

How on earth did you come to this conclusion about "a lot" of white people? You earlier based your opinion on the number of threads in this forum, which is absolutely ridiculous if it's true.

A lot of black people are openly racist about a lot of white people and don't see how ironic it is.

If I was to say that, I'd have the Justice Brigade on my back in a matter of seconds.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:57 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
It's a disgustingly ignorant way for the author to get a point across, and for people to act like it was the only valid way to do it is telling.

If it was the other way around, this thread would be overflowing with people complaining, more so than it is now, for sure.

Articles like this are just race-bait garbage, which people like to dress up as being innocent commentaries on reality.

If people want to talk about privilege, then I'd say it must surely be a privilege for a bigot to be able to be openly racist and ignorant and yet be able to totally get away with it because they're not white.

It's okay, it's not racist, I'm just highlighting an issue between black men and black women by comparing those black men with the dirty-ass white people they despise. Nothing racist about that.
He doesn't say "dirty ass", and yet again, yes, far too many white people do exactly the things he describes. Again, y'all are doing exactly what he describes, right now, by making an article addressed to black men, and acting like he's personally insulting you. It's an accurate description of what you're doing. If he claimed "all whites are racists", yes, that would itself be racist. But - and this is key - he clearly states the opposite.

He does say that all have benefitted, which I don't know about, but racism in government programs is *clearly* the reason for the 20-1 wealth gap in the US.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:57 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Another statistic that is plucked from between the arse-cheeks of logic.

How on earth did you come to this conclusion about "a lot" of white people? You earlier based your opinion on the number of threads in this forum, which is absolutely ridiculous if it's true.

A lot of black people are openly racist about a lot of white people and don't see how ironic it is.

If I was to say that, I'd have the Justice Brigade on my back in a matter of seconds.
Black guy says all white people, it's okay.

White guy says all blacks is not okay.

Personally I say they are both ********.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:01 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
He doesn't say "dirty ass", and yet again, yes, far too many white people do exactly the things he describes. Again, y'all are doing exactly what he describes, right now, by making an article addressed to black men, and acting like he's personally insulting you. It's an accurate description of what you're doing. If he claimed "all whites are racists", yes, that would itself be racist. But - and this is key - he clearly states the opposite.

He does say that all have benefitted, which I don't know about, but racism in government programs is *clearly* the reason for the 20-1 wealth gap in the US.
How dare we point out that the article is full of ****. That's racist.

Or considering I only look white, is it racist? Where does a half native bisexual victim of child and intimate partner abuse rank on this grand scale of victimhood? Maybe I should start playing the victim card to get people to listen to me?

Actually no, I won't because those tactics are for a personality type that I cannot stand.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:02 PM   #109
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Although we recognize that not all black men are actively misogynistic, we should recognize many black men are dramatically so
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:05 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Although we recognize that not all black men are actively misogynistic, we should recognize many black men are dramatically so
I'd have you define many before I'd agree with the statement.

Along with forgetting about don't be a dick, when did we decide using weasel words is okay?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:05 PM   #111
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While I'd call it bigoted rather than racist, I'm not sure what's actually ironic about two groups each holding bigotry towards each other.

As far as what I said before I'm just amazed you guys don't seem to have huge problems staying on topic while debating holocaust deniers and stuff but as soon as someone says something un-pc about white people y'all instantly derail to talking about that.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:06 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Another statistic that is plucked from between the arse-cheeks of logic.

How on earth did you come to this conclusion about "a lot" of white people? You earlier based your opinion on the number of threads in this forum, which is absolutely ridiculous if it's true.
and about 36 years of being around white people. the stories I've been told by nearly every other black person. Online gaming, and many companies' tolerance of the raging racism on their fanbase. Donald Trump's election.

Quote:
A lot of black people are openly racist about a lot of white people and don't see how ironic it is.

If I was to say that, I'd have the Justice Brigade on my back in a matter of seconds.
Eh, the Hoteps are notorious for this - although how they manage to team up so often with the "alt-right" is beyond me.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:07 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
While I'd call it bigoted rather than racist, I'm not sure what's actually ironic about two groups each holding bigotry towards each other.

As far as what I said before I'm just amazed you guys don't seem to have huge problems staying on topic while debating holocaust deniers and stuff but as soon as someone says something un-pc about white people y'all instantly derail to talking about that.
Yeah just like when people get upset when I call things gay. Why can't we talk about how gay the new start wars movie is without people crawling up my hoop about my language. I didn't mean it literally.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:08 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I'd have you define many before I'd agree with the statement.

Along with forgetting about don't be a dick, when did we decide using weasel words is okay?
I become annoyed when individual males take personal exception and center themselves in any conversation about misogyny, claiming to be one of the “good ones” and wishing for us to stop and acknowledge their goodness.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:08 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
and about 36 years of being around white people. the stories I've been told by nearly every other black person. Online gaming, and many companies' tolerance of the raging racism on their fanbase. Donald Trump's election.



Eh, the Hoteps are notorious for this - although how they manage to team up so often with the "alt-right" is beyond me.
So we are just to take you at your word? What about black friends of mine who say the opposite?

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:09 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
While I'd call it bigoted rather than racist, I'm not sure what's actually ironic about two groups each holding bigotry towards each other.

As far as what I said before I'm just amazed you guys don't seem to have huge problems staying on topic while debating holocaust deniers and stuff but as soon as someone says something un-pc about white people y'all instantly derail to talking about that.
I'm not. Like I keep saying, it's exactly what the analogy is about.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:09 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I become annoyed when individual males take personal exception and center themselves in any conversation about misogyny, claiming to be one of the “good ones” and wishing for us to stop and acknowledge their goodness.
Change males to blacks and tell me if the statement doesn't piss you off.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:11 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
So we are just to take you at your word? What about black friends of mine who say the opposite?

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.
At a certain point, it is. And I notice you didn't consider the election of the brazenly white supremacist Donald Trump.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:13 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Change males to blacks and tell me if the statement doesn't piss you off.
The analogy you're so angry about does exactly this...
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:14 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
At a certain point, it is. And I notice you didn't consider the election of the brazenly white supremacist Donald Trump.
More evidence your method is pissing people off.

Why do you hold a grudge against white people? Because you have taken a lot of ****. What makes you think that by doing the same thing you will get a different result?
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