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Old 5th July 2018, 09:05 AM   #1241
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Demanding a concept of "morality" where someone can do the right thing within the scenario they are handed by reality but still be considered "immoral" seems both amazingly overly unnecessary and downright sadistic.
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:06 AM   #1242
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Demanding a concept of "morality" where someone can do the right thing within the scenario they are handed by reality but still be considered "immoral" seems both amazingly overly unnecessary and downright sadistic.

Are you applying an objective standard?
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:10 AM   #1243
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Are you applying an objective standard?
I don't care. The "Objective/Subjective" distinction as it is being used in this discussion is at best incomplete, at worse deliberately dishonest.

I'm applying a standard as it applies in the real world just... literally everything else we do.
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:23 AM   #1244
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How did we end up in the Humor forum?
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:24 AM   #1245
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
How did we end up in the Humor forum?
Right about the time people decided "subjective" meant "by magic."
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Old 5th July 2018, 02:57 PM   #1246
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Right about the time people decided "subjective" meant "by magic."
What idiot decided that then?
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Old 5th July 2018, 03:47 PM   #1247
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
oops, hadn't realized you were running for political office in Alabama.
That the best response you have to offer?
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:45 PM   #1248
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
How did we end up in the Humor forum?
Because maintaining a reasonable dialogue is hard. You have to think about what you are going to say and what the other has said. You have to weight your own arguments and concede that you may be wrong...Oof!. Thinking with categorical sentences is more fun and it demands less effort.

This is why some people hate philosophy.
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Old 6th July 2018, 01:58 AM   #1249
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It's funny, though. Everyone was strongly demanding that I define my position. I have done it twice: at the beginning and at the end of the debate. None of those who reproached me for not being sufficiently "blunt" have answered me. What's going on here? Is my English so bad?
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Old 6th July 2018, 02:44 AM   #1250
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Objective and subjective are concepts that usually refer to statements of fact. Moral statements are not statements of fact, but rules. Therefore, they cannot be objective......
Well, I like Harris and Dillahunty's way of looking at it.

- humans (and some other species) are naturally social animals.
- So we can (and mostly do) agree to ways to live with each other so we all can get along .
- Dillahunty terms that as "well-being" and that when we are talking about morality we are really talking about well being.
- So the goal is to increase well-being for as many people as possible
- Moral decisions are always situational, but if they are made with well-being as the goal we can make Objective decisions in each situation to try and maximize well-being.

Well-being as the goal is subjective. But once we agree to that is the goal, objective moral pronouncements can be made with respect to that goal.

It works for me. I have yet to hear anyone explain why well-being shouldn't be the goal.

Lastly, Saying universal objective morality exists because god says so has many many issues and often ends up in a circular argument. But mainly I think it's bunk because there is no evidence for God or that a God created any objective morality, and conversely I don't see any universal Objective Morality anywhere which proves the existence of a God. I mean where is it? Just saying it exists because we feel it in a balls is idiotic.
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Old 6th July 2018, 09:25 AM   #1251
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
- Moral decisions are always situational, but if they are made with well-being as the goal we can make Objective decisions in each situation to try and maximize well-being.

Well-being as the goal is subjective. But once we agree to that is the goal, objective moral pronouncements can be made with respect to that goal.
I think that there is a confusion. If the final goal is subjective every dependent judgement would be utterly subjective in a moral sense. It could only be instrumentally objective, not moral. It would simply be useful for a subjective finality.

Only if the final goal is objective we can say that moral is objective.

But a judgement can be objective only if it describes real facts or things. Therefore the final moral goal would be describing a thing that is the good in itself. I think that this is impossible. "Good" is not a natural or metaphysical feature of anything.

“I don't give a damn about the welfare of humanity; I prefer to live like a rajah enslaving others” can be affirmed without contradiction and there is no argument to refute it, because it is not a judgement of facts.

Intersubjectivty is neither objectivity nor subjectivity. An intersubjective statement is only valid for a community more or less broad. An intersubjective moral statement is a statement accepted by the community that accept moral rules.
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Old 7th July 2018, 12:17 PM   #1252
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As long as certain parties are trapped in the "Objective = Concrete and Never Changing" and "Subjective = Random, perhaps magic" headspace this conversation will never advance beyond metawanking.

Morality is "A judgement call as to how to increase the well being of conscious creatures that is variable based on changing scenarios and subject to change to account for new information, but is not formless and without standards or context."

Call that whatever you wish.
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Old 7th July 2018, 11:39 PM   #1253
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As long as certain parties are trapped in the "Objective = Concrete and Never Changing" and "Subjective = Random, perhaps magic" headspace this conversation will never advance beyond metawanking.

Morality is "A judgement call as to how to increase the well being of conscious creatures that is variable based on changing scenarios and subject to change to account for new information, but is not formless and without standards or context."

Call that whatever you wish.
Call that whatever you wish, your problem is to define "well being" in an intersubjective way and to show that moralities that don't aim the well being are not moral. It is not easy for you.
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:28 PM   #1254
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I think that there is a confusion. If the final goal is subjective every dependent judgement would be utterly subjective in a moral sense.
I just don't agree with that. If the Goal of well-being has been agreed, then decisions to reach that goal can always be made objectively. (not saying that is always successful of course - sometimes it's hard to know what is best)

Even if you disagree, I see no evidence whatsoever of any universal objective moral foundation existing in fairy space, and there are far too many moral issues that people disagree on and are hard to resolve (even when we agree on well being as a goal).

The world behaves as if it were still trying to figure out what is moral and what is not, making attempts at maximizing well being, sometimes cocking it up but sometimes not and there are plenty of groups and individuals around who appear to struggle with that. It also appears to me that deciding what is a moral action for any given situation within a group is easier and often more successful than moral actions between groups. Again to me it seems an obvious natural outcome when you consider we are an evolved tribal species.

Until some universal moral truth can be proven to exist, we will continue to debate, resolve and sometimes disagree on individual moral actions on specific situations as if there were none (universal objective moral truth). Come back when you have your evidence.
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:30 PM   #1255
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
intersubjective
*Slams head into desk*
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:30 PM   #1256
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As long as certain parties are trapped in the "Objective = Concrete and Never Changing" and "Subjective = Random, perhaps magic" headspace this conversation will never advance beyond metawanking.

Morality is "A judgement call as to how to increase the well being of conscious creatures that is variable based on changing scenarios and subject to change to account for new information, but is not formless and without standards or context."

Call that whatever you wish.
Why the quotes (where's that from)? as it's very well put.
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:32 PM   #1257
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Why the quotes (where's that from)? as it's very well put.
It's from me. The quotes were a, probably fruitless and naive, attempt to appease the pedants.
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:38 PM   #1258
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Call that whatever you wish, your problem is to define "well being" in an intersubjective way and to show that moralities that don't aim the well being are not moral. It is not easy for you.
no one says it's always easy and of course that is exactly what we would expect to find, and in fact do indeed find in reality.
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Old 8th July 2018, 11:21 PM   #1259
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
I just don't agree with that. If the Goal of well-being has been agreed, then decisions to reach that goal can always be made objectively. (not saying that is always successful of course - sometimes it's hard to know what is best)

Even if you disagree, I see no evidence whatsoever of any universal objective moral foundation existing in fairy space, and there are far too many moral issues that people disagree on and are hard to resolve (even when we agree on well being as a goal).
First problem: What is your definition of "well being"? Spiritual or material? Be precise, please.

I am not defending a universalist ethics. I defend that what is moral is not a particular goal but a method of solve differences about what is to be done.
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Old 8th July 2018, 11:22 PM   #1260
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Slams head into desk*
What is your problem?
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