Merged: Money/inequalities - Part 3 / Poll - willing to work for free?

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is well known since a long time that you and the other fellows writing on this post that you have no incentive to get rid of money

Correct. Money allowed me to discharge all of my debts in full, honestly.

OTOH, you want to dodge your debts dishonestly by not paying them.

How did I get enough money to rid myself of all debt? Hard work.

How do you want to get rid of your debt? No work at all.

Personally, I prefer to be honest.

Of course, now you are going to accuse me of being one of your mythical "1%".

Of course I am not. I still work. But now I can pick and chose how much I work. Naturally, I pick those jobs which interest or amuse me and which pay well. And reject those I don't like. There is a lot to be said for a stress free life. And when I retire? I likely never will. Not because I cannot, but because there are too many things that interest me.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Leftus

He has said, a few times, you will be required to work to participate in society. Of course, he will not define work or a time frame, and refuses the idea of a gatekeeper, or any accounting to define who is adding to society and who is taking from it.

No, he has said specifically and repeatedly there would be no obligation to work. While he has also expressed his expectation that other people would shame those that don't work. That can't be obligatory or it would be an obligation to do that work of shaming people. Also, as noted, not very effective since people willing to screw over their neighbors, by not working, aren't likely to be shamed by them, for not working. Just as one is likely to find a subculture where such behavior (perhaps even just against others) is socially acceptable. So a community of thieves, and den of drugs, an organization of pedophiles, outlaw groups and gangs. Even just today, generally socially unacceptable behavior is not only precisely acceptable but at times a deliberate and distinguishing aspect of certain social groups. Even, ironically, self proclaimed 1% groups.

Now, he has also expressed his expectation that people would just still work so that there would be free stuff for them to get. However, he has also expressed no obligation that anyone be compensated for any work that they do perform (no payment). So his 'society' has absolutely no obligations to those that do participate. Again the central theme still seems to be just Gaetan attempting to abandon his own obligations.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Leftus

All you've promise is to replace debt with a different kind of obligation.

Witch one?

Quote:

Also it leads to waste. Why should I try and get my iPhone fixed when I could simply take a new one, new model and all. Why would anyone want my busted ass phone when they could also just take a shiny new one. So what happens to my broken phone? It becomes part of the waste stream. It becomes pollution that you created in your system.

I'd prefer not to live in your polluted, indentured world. Hard pass.

In the actual society every good is a waste because it cost too much to make something that could be repair or recycle, if labor is free it cost nothing. And there won't be waste because people are more shy to take what is free of charge than to just pay for. If we don't abolish money you'll certainly live in a polluted world till every body dies, ask Trump.

[BStrong]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is well known since a long time that you and the other fellows writing on this post that you have no incentive to get rid of money

It's well known that you're a religion of one and have no standing to instruct other people how to conduct their lives.

Anyone that cites the jesus-man as a source and as a justification in a discussion of economics and can't get that part of the fairy tale correct isn't worth much.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

In the actual society every good is a waste because it cost too much to make something that could be repair or recycle,

Repairing stuff is what I do for a living at a company that also recycles stuff. Additionally I repair my own stuff at home and we recycle at home. Once again your claim have no basis in reality and I again suggest that you go out and get some real world experience.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

if labor is free it cost nothing.

Once again, among other things, using labor at least costs the ability to use that labor somewhere else, or for something else at the same time.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

And there won't be waste because people are more shy to take what is free of charge than to just pay for.

Again, as already documented here, people already waste food that they do pay for. What the heck makes you think people would be "shy to take what is free of charge", particularly when these are the same people who you claim just want to be paid the most while paying their neighbor the least?

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If we don't abolish money you'll certainly live in a polluted world till every body dies, ask Trump.

Abolishing money doesn't stop, or even potential hinder, pollution and everybody still dies even without any pollution.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by The Man

Repairing stuff is what I do for a living at a company that also recycles stuff. Additionally I repair my own stuff at home and we recycle at home. Once again your claim have no basis in reality and I again suggest that you go out and get some real world experience.

I wasn't talking about one specific person but in a general sense.

Quote:

Once again, among other things, using labor at least costs the ability to use that labor somewhere else, or for something else at the same time.

I was talking about money charge

Quote:

Again, as already documented here, people already waste food that they do pay for.

But not what they don't pay for

Quote:

What the heck makes you think people would be "shy to take what is free of charge", particularly when these are the same people who you claim just want to be paid the most while paying their neighbor the least?

You are not shy to take what people offer you for free?

Quote:

]Abolishing money doesn't stop, or even potential hinder, pollution and everybody still dies even without any pollution.

Your leader made at least 16,000 proven lies according to the Washington post, do you really thing he care about coal mine workers but the money profit behind it?

[BStrong]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Your leader made at least 16,000 proven lies according to the Washington post, do you really thing he care about coal mine workers but the money profit behind it?

Your book of fairy tales codifies genocide, slavery and rape as law.

Jesus-man had blood on his hands before the nails got close to him.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Witch one?

You have more impositions than just the one where you force people to work?

Quote:

In the actual society every good is a waste because it cost too much to make something that could be repair or recycle, if labor is free it cost nothing. And there won't be waste because people are more shy to take what is free of charge than to just pay for. If we don't abolish money you'll certainly live in a polluted world till every body dies, ask Trump.

Once again, labor is not free. It costs time. No way around it.

The reason I bought a used 2008 Maserati, and not a new one, was because it was cheaper. If you take away money, I'd be driving a brand new 2020 Quattroporte until the 2021 model became available and then I'd be driving that. What would I do with my old ones? Nothing. They would rot.

When my 2010 Camaro broke down, I had it fixed. If the 2019 models were free, I'm not waiting to get it fixed, I'm taking the new one. They can keep the broken one. And when the 2020s became available, guess what they would get? Would I get the base 2.0 1LS (retail 25K)? Or the convertible ZL1 (retail 68k)?

Without price, there is no reason to not get all the bells and whistles. Do I really need a V8, 650 HP beast? Of course not. It's totally overkill for the 15ish miles to my office, which I report into 1 day a week. Would I want that? Absolutely. But I'm not paying the premium, so I'm not getting one. Without that premium, why wouldn't I?

This notion that people would be "too shy" to take more than what they need, look at yourself. You don't need a tesla. But you want one. And would you take the base model, or would you want the one fully built out? I think we know what you want.

Clearly, you've never worked with "the poors" when it comes to free stuff. Seriously, if you think CEOs are greedy, they have nothing when it comes to free goods and services. It's flat out human nature. This fantasy that people will automatically refrain from wasting resources because they are "free" is easily dispatched because we waste resources when they cost money. In fact, as supply decreases, people will horde, increasing the decrease in supply, causing more hording. Vicious circle.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

But not what they don't pay for

Why would someone be more conservative with their resources, when replenishing them costs nothing, than when it costs something?

Tragedy of the Commons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I wasn't talking about one specific person but in a general sense.

I'm not the only person that makes a living repairing stuff nor is the stuff that I repair, or have repaired, the only stuff that is repairable. Thus your admonishment above is as detached from reality as your original claim. I again recommend you get some real word experience.

Same goes for recycling, "I wasn't talking about one specific person but in a general sense" there as well.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I was talking about money charge

Again, not all costs are monetary, you not talking about them, while at least apparently acknowledging their existence, simply means you are deliberately ignoring them. Why do you do that?

Originally Posted by Gaetan

But not what they don't pay for

If they waste what they do pay for why wouldn't one also waste what they don't pay for?

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You are not shy to take what people offer you for free?

No, certainly not "shy", though I expect you may be using a different and perhaps unique definition of "shy". Heck, as I've mentioned here before, I used to be a thief. That I might not be inclined to simply "take what people offer" me "for free" doesn't make me in any way shy about it. Also remember that this was in reference to your no money scenario. So taking stuff for free is, in that scenario, the only way you want people to take stuff. Thus people being shy about taking stuff for free is actually detrimental to the adequate functioning of that scenario.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Your leader made at least 16,000 proven lies according to the Washington post, do you really thing he care about coal mine workers but the money profit behind it?

What he thinks isn't germane to the lack of validity in your claims. He could be completely honest and detest money, while your claims would still remain demonstrably erroneous.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Leftus

...Polite snip....


Clearly, you've never worked with "the poors" when it comes to free stuff. Seriously, if you think CEOs are greedy, they have nothing when it comes to free goods and services. It's flat out human nature. This fantasy that people will automatically refrain from wasting resources because they are "free" is easily dispatched because we waste resources when they cost money. In fact, as supply decreases, people will horde, increasing the decrease in supply, causing more hording. Vicious circle.

Heck, just look at any black Friday sale. People are more than willing to abuse others and debase themselves just for a somewhat reduced price.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by The Man

Heck, just look at any black Friday sale. People are more than willing to abuse others and debase themselves just for a somewhat reduced price.

That's prove that people always want to pay their stuff 0.000%, then the right price of your work must be 0.000$ to be just, that what i always said.

[Little 10 Toes]

Reduced price does not mean free.

Why haven't you given abaddon all of your belongings?

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

That's prove that people always want to pay their stuff 0.000%, then the right price of your work must be 0.000$ to be just, that what i always said.

If black Friday stampedes are proof you are right about the price people want to pay, it also proves you are wrong about people limiting themselves to just what they need.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Leftus

If black Friday stampedes are proof you are right about the price people want to pay, it also proves you are wrong about people limiting themselves to just what they need.

You didn't prove that people will take more carrots than their body can assume and stuff people don't need.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You didn't prove that people will take more carrots than their body can assume and stuff people don't need.

Do they need 40 inch TVs? Yet they will trample their fellow man to get them. You cite that as an example that people want stuff for free. But you ignore the inhumanity that it creates.

People may not take more carrots than their body can assume. Mostly because carrots are terrible. But if that was the only food source left, then, YES they would grab more than they need to make it to tomorrow. People hoard crap for dumber reasons.

Hell, they might take a few extra to replant. So they don't have to rely on an inconsistent supply.

[Gaetan]

Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos' fortune grew by $13.5 billion in just 15 minutes on Thursday.
Bezos' windfall came after Amazon's stock price increased by 12% to $12,000 during trading Thursday in New York.
The bulk of Bezos' $116 billion fortune comes from his Amazon stock, with ventures such as Blue Origin and the Washington Post newspaper comprising the rest.
Thursday's stock surge came after a stellar quarter for Amazon, as it posted revenues of $87 billion for the fourth quarter of 2019 – up from $72.4 billion in Q4 2018.

https://www.businessinsider.com/amaz...minutes-2020-1

[Little 10 Toes]

And?

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos' fortune grew by $13.5 billion in just 15 minutes on Thursday.
Bezos' windfall came after Amazon's stock price increased by 12% to $12,000 during trading Thursday in New York.
The bulk of Bezos' $116 billion fortune comes from his Amazon stock, with ventures such as Blue Origin and the Washington Post newspaper comprising the rest.
Thursday's stock surge came after a stellar quarter for Amazon, as it posted revenues of $87 billion for the fourth quarter of 2019 – up from $72.4 billion in Q4 2018.

https://www.businessinsider.com/amaz...minutes-2020-1

In other words, Bezos is taking more carrots than he can consume. You've essentially debunked yourself.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Leftus

In other words, Bezos is taking more carrots than he can consume. You've essentially debunked yourself.

But he won't eat more carrots than he can. People who have money think that they have the right to live in luxury but it can't be in a world of no money because his neighbour will tell him, eh don't take more than you need or we do.

[BStrong]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

But he won't eat more carrots than he can. People who have money think that they have the right to live in luxury but it can't be in a world of no money because his neighbour will tell him, eh don't take more than you need or we do.

Nice of you to confirm that you, the jesus-man and your one man religion would keep faith with the law of the lord - murder, rape and slavery.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

But he won't eat more carrots than he can. People who have money think that they have the right to live in luxury but it can't be in a world of no money because his neighbour will tell him, eh don't take more than you need or we do.

Yes he will because Carrots are power. And he won't give two shakes as to what his neighbors say. He currently doesn't and plenty of people are telling him now he has too many carrots.

He may not eat any more carrots, but he will acquire more of them because of what they represent. He isn't eating any better today than he did last week. His life is fundamentally unchanged from last week to today. But he still took in more carrots.

It's not that they think they can live in luxury, it's that they have earned that ability. The question is, why do you think you should have the right to his carrots?

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

That's prove that people always want to pay their stuff 0.000%, then the right price of your work must be 0.000$ to be just, that what i always said.

No it isn't, learn some math. The lower bound of a set need not be, itself, a member of the set. Which means even if price approaches $0 it need not ever be $0.

Also as mentioned before just because some people, like you, may want to screw over their neighbors by paying them "0.000$" that doesn't mean all people want that. Your desired to pay your neighbors nothing and abandon your own oblations doesn't and can not reflect on everyone, even just by your own assertions. Remember that all people are not the same. That's another assertion you keep making but one you apparently just choose to ignore when it suits you. Again, no one can agree with you until you can at least agree with just yourself.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You didn't prove that people will take more carrots than their body can assume and stuff people don't need.

Again, the fact that they already take more than they need or even just use, and pay for it, proves that some will.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

But he won't eat more carrots than he can. People who have money think that they have the right to live in luxury but it can't be in a world of no money because his neighbour will tell him, eh don't take more than you need or we do.

That brings us back to the limitations on tribal living, as noted by your own citation, population size. In a population like a small city you can't know all your neighbors. So you don't know who that person is or whether they are taking more carrots for themselves or are taking them to help other neighbors you similarly don't know. I again recommend that you actually read your own citations.

Second you've already established your precept that said person is currently willing to pay his neighbors "0.000$", so why should letting them have 0 carrots be any different? Why would they care what some neighbors, whom by your own assertion they are looking to screw over, say about being screwed over? Again, no one can agree with you until you can at least agree with just yourself.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos' fortune grew by $13.5 billion in just 15 minutes on Thursday.
Bezos' windfall came after Amazon's stock price increased by 12% to $12,000 during trading Thursday in New York.
The bulk of Bezos' $116 billion fortune comes from his Amazon stock, with ventures such as Blue Origin and the Washington Post newspaper comprising the rest.
Thursday's stock surge came after a stellar quarter for Amazon, as it posted revenues of $87 billion for the fourth quarter of 2019 – up from $72.4 billion in Q4 2018.

https://www.businessinsider.com/amaz...minutes-2020-1

It's cute how you think that means money in Bezos' pocket.

Hint: It doesn't.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by The Man

No it isn't, learn some math. The lower bound of a set need not be, itself, a member of the set. Which means even if price approaches $0 it need not ever be $0.

Also as mentioned before just because some people, like you, may want to screw over their neighbors by paying them "0.000$" that doesn't mean all people want that. Your desired to pay your neighbors nothing and abandon your own oblations doesn't and can not reflect on everyone, even just by your own assertions. Remember that all people are not the same. That's another assertion you keep making but one you apparently just choose to ignore when it suits you. Again, no one can agree with you until you can at least agree with just yourself.

People are not the same but there are common points, we don't want to pay stuff, we don't want to be hurt, we don't want to go in prison.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

People are not the same but there are common points, we don't want to pay stuff, we don't want to be hurt, we don't want to go in prison.

Do you think advocating illegal actions might cause one to go to prison?

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

People are not the same but there are common points, we don't want to pay stuff, we don't want to be hurt, we don't want to go in prison.

Sure some "don't want to pay stuff", often called thieves. I've known more honest people than I've known thieves, even when I was a thief. Some people do "want to be hurt", they're called masochists. I've know some of them as well. However, much like most people don't have a problem paying for stuff, most people aren't masochists. Lastly institutionalized and outlaw people don't have a problem with going to prison. It's basically an expectation at some time or other. I know some of them as well and again just as most people don't mind paying for stuff and don't like being hurt, similarly most would mind going to prison. Again I recommend you get some real world experience.

So to summarize most people aren't thieves, so they are more than willing to pay for stuff. Unlike you, as well see that their neighbor get a fair pay, also unlike you. Most people aren't masochists and don't derive gratification from being hurt. Most people aren't institutionalized or outlaws, so would mind going to prison.

Again you simply portray your own desire to rip people off as being some "common points". While evidently simply ignoring that same "common points" you have asserted when it comes to how much people would take when stuff is "free".

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by The Man

Sure some "don't want to pay stuff", often called thieves.

This is not thieves when you don't ask to be paid for your own stuff you made, this is justice. What is thieves is to ask to be paid the max when you want to pay the minimum.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not thieves when you don't ask to be paid for your own stuff you made, this is justice.

People most often do ask to be paid for the stuff they made. So you simply not wanting to pay them only makes you unjust.

You simply accepting something for free from someone doesn't make the situation "just". That doesn't happen until you give something freely to restore balance in the system. So again it is not the system (of money or of no money) that is inherently just or unjust, but simply the people who act within it.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

What is thieves is to ask to be paid the max when you want to pay the minimum.

Great, since you're the only one here, or that I have ever known, to claim to want that, that just makes you a thief by your very own assertions.

Why do you want to be a thief and unjust?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by The Man

People most often do ask to be paid for the stuff they made. So you simply not wanting to pay them only makes you unjust.

True because i am just a normal person and you do and everybody else the same but i want to change this unjust system but you are confortable with it.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

True because i am just a normal person and you do and everybody else the same but i want to change this unjust system but you are confortable with it.

No, I'm not the same as you, as most here have told you that they aren't the same as you either. Again the system isn't unjust itself just you are by how you act within the system, now simply by your own assertions. Not wanting to make things worse certainly doesn't make anyone "confortable" with your injustice.

As usual your reply doesn't actually address any of the questions asked. So again, why do you want to be unjust?

ETA:

You do understand that you can still want to change the system while acting justly within it, right?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by The Man

No, I'm not the same as you

Yes the difference is that you are a liar and i say the true.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Yes the difference is that you are a liar and i say the true.

Nope, not a liar, which of course means that you don't "say the true". So again, why do you want to be unjust?


You do understand that you can still want to change the system while acting justly within it, don't you?

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

True because i am just a normal person and you do and everybody else the same but i want to change this unjust system but you are confortable with it.

Nope. You merely want to freeload your way through life. I prefer to earn my way by working for it honestly. You prefer theft.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

True because i am just a normal person and you do and everybody else the same but i want to change this unjust system but you are confortable with it.

No, the problem is that you think all work is equal. It is not. I'm listening to Megadeth right now, so let's use Dave Mustaine as the example. People will willing give up a good number of their carrots to listen to him play. I'm nowhere as skilled as Dave. Hell, I'm not even trying. But under your theory I should get as many carrots as he does for being worse at music by any metric.

Why? Shouldn't the time he spent improving his craft be rewarded over some nobody coming in, swiping his music, and butchering it?

Who should be forced to listen to me sing and destroy guitar strings?

As it has been recently stated, you don't want to have to expend effort, just have everything be given to you. The world can't work that way.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

When we'll abolish money don't you thing you'll be free of debts toward richer and get back to freedom again

Money GIVES me freedom. Without money I'd have to do everything myself without any means to ask people to do it for me, freeing me up to do what I actually want to do.

No one is going to abolish money. Give up your dream.

[JoeMorgue]

It's been several years now I can't help but notice that Gatean hasn't sent me his evil money yet.

I'm willing to take this burden off of you Gatean, I will absolve you of the weight and the burden. I'm willing to do that.

Please, send me your money. It's the only way to save your soul.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not thieves when you don't ask to be paid for your own stuff you made, this is justice. What is thieves is to ask to be paid the max when you want to pay the minimum.

So can we just hang up the signs that state "Arbeit macht frei" now, or are we going to wait?