Merged: Money/inequalities - Part 3 / Poll - willing to work for free?

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Leftus

So can we just hang up the signs that state "Arbeit macht frei" now, or are we going to wait?

Praxagora: I want all to have a share of everything and all property to be in common; there will no longer be either rich or poor. I shall begin by making land, money, everything that is private property, common to all.

Blepyrus: But who will till the soil?

Praxagora: The slaves.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Leftus

So can we just hang up the signs that state "Arbeit macht frei" now, or are we going to wait?

There is that creepy feel to all of this.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Leftus

No, the problem is that you think all work is equal.

Who is judge of what is being equal or not? To try to find out depends of every people and is too hard, what you don't like to do is hard and what you like is easy. In a world of no money you'll just do what you like because you aren't forced to work because everything is free of charge.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Who is judge of what is being equal or not?

You think you should be taht judge. Nobody cares what you think.

Or you you think jebus should be the judge even though nobody can demonstrate he ever existed in the first place.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

To try to find out depends of every people and is too hard,

Nope. Got any evidence that there even was some jebus? Of course not.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

what you don't like to do is hard and what you like is easy.

And another lie. I relish a challenge and seek not an easy life. You are merely telling us how you desire to freeload. And nobody is buying the BS.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

In a world of no money you'll just do what you like because you aren't forced to work because everything is free of charge.

But you just told us that EVERYONE will be forced labourers. It might help if you could even decide what your claim is. So far all of your various claims have been demonstrated to be wrong. Have you any claim that is right?

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Who is judge of what is being equal or not?

People.

Who is the judge now of "what is being equal or not", people.

Who would be the judge of "what is being equal or not" in your no money world, people.

Who was it you claimed should berate the person for taking what they thought was too many carrots, people.

Are you starting to see the trend here?

Originally Posted by Gaetan

To try to find out depends of every people and is too hard,

No it doesn't and no it isn't. It doesn't need to involve "every people" for every instance. To use the Leftus Megadeth example not "every people" is going to care how good or bad someone plays Megadeth's music.

Finally, it ain't that hard at all, the current system does it without anyone hardly noticing. That you think such a thing is just "too hard" just shows how inadequate even you feel your own no money world would be.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

what you don't like to do is hard and what you like is easy.

Absolutely wrong, many people like hard challenging work or tasks. Again I recommend you get some real world experience and stop simply peddling your own perceptions as some kind of universal traits.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

In a world of no money you'll just do what you like because you aren't forced to work because everything is free of charge.

And back once again to you simply and deliberately ignoring non-monetary costs.

Why do you simply want to ignore non-monetary costs?

Why do you want to be unjust?

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Who is judge of what is being equal or not? To try to find out depends of every people and is too hard, what you don't like to do is hard and what you like is easy. In a world of no money you'll just do what you like because you aren't forced to work because everything is free of charge.

Right now, the market does that. Please refer to the example given. Dave Mustaine makes far more carrots than I could ever trying to do the same task. I know I don't have his musical ability. Even if I were to try, and put in the work to master the craft, to the best of my abilities, I couldn't do what he does.

Let's even use a more basic skill, carpentry. I am absolutely horrible at that. I can buy the best tools, but still, I know things should be square, and try to make them square, but rarely does it work out that way. Hell, I'd rather pay some craftsman to come in and do it for me than even attempt it. Right now, I'm considering removing the carpet from my home and putting in some tile. I know I could do that mostly myself. But I also know it would look horrible. It's worth it to me to hire someone to do it right.

Let's use that as an example, shall we. You can bring me in to do at best a half assed job or, for the same price, bring in a pro who will not only do it right, but in half the time. Who do you choose?

Why should I get paid the same as a competent professional when my end product isn't half as good?

So are we hanging up our "Arbeit macht frei" signs now and dispose of any idea of fairness or justice?

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Who is judge of what is being equal or not?

Not you.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Who is judge of what is being equal or not? To try to find out depends of every people and is too hard, what you don't like to do is hard and what you like is easy.

Actually, there's an easy way, and fortunately every civilisation and tribe on Earth has managed to find and use it.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Not you.

When i said ''Who is judge'' i meant that no one could be.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

When i said ''Who is judge'' i meant that no one could be.

Ridiculous. Since fairness is a human concept, obviously humans, individually or collectively, can judge what is fair.


Stay in school.

[BStrong]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Yes the difference is that you are a liar and i say the true.

You believe in a book of lies that endorses rape, genocide and slavery.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by BStrong

You believe in a book of lies that endorses rape, genocide and slavery.

Ah. We have already been down that particular rabbit hole with Gaetan. Turns out he picks the parts that suit his flavour of crackpottery. Quelle surprise.

Oh, and it turns out that while I and sundry others have actually read the bible end to end, clearly, Gaetan has not. Shock and horror. Magic book proponent has not read magic book.

Surely that never happened before?

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by BStrong

You believe in a book of lies that endorses rape, genocide and slavery.

Yep.

As always for any newcomers I feel the need to remind everyone that Gataen, by his own admission, has no actual economic goal in mind here. He's just straight up proselytizing but the PTB won't let him do that in the Economic subforum so... this is what you get.

He thinks the baby Jeebus said the money is evil and everything he's said a very, very poor after the fact excuse for that.

We are dealing with someone who is not allowed to say what he's actually saying.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Gataen

Gaetan. It's a French name. Not sure where from, in his case, assuming it's his real name.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

He thinks the baby Jeebus said the money is evil and everything he's said a very, very poor after the fact excuse for that.

Seems to have forgotten the whole "give unto Caesar" bit.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Ridiculous. Since fairness is a human concept, obviously humans, individually or collectively, can judge what is fair.


Stay in school.

Like the senators who judged Trump, it is certainly a good exemple of what is your justice.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

When i said ''Who is judge'' i meant that no one could be.

Not even you?

[JoeMorgue]

I've learned that with the holier then though types "Judge not lest ye be judged" either:

A) Doesn't apply to them
B) Doesn't apply to their ability to judge whether or not you should judge other people.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Like the senators who judged Trump, it is certainly a good exemple of what is your justice.

It's a political process, not a judicial one. It's a good example of the political system certainly.

You are still ignoring your claims that nobody can judge what someone should be paid, despite doing exactly that.

[JoeMorgue]

Besides he can sit on high and "not judge" all he wants, after several years and multiple threads he's never gotten beyond "We get rid of all money... somehow and then everything works out, everyone has enough of everything, all necessary work gets down with no payment, and it all evens out in the end because magic *cough* because Jesus said so even though I'm not allowed to say that in this subforum *cough*"

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Leftus

It's a political process, not a judicial one. It's a good example of the political system certainly.

You are still ignoring your claims that nobody can judge what someone should be paid, despite doing exactly that.

Trump administration named thousands of judges including supreme court.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Trump administration named thousands of judges including supreme court.

Yes. It goes with the job. But you were talking about the Senators and this is just more dishonesty.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I've learned that with the holier then though types "Judge not lest ye be judged" either:

A) Doesn't apply to them
B) Doesn't apply to their ability to judge whether or not you should judge other people.

And that is the weirdness. Gaetan declaims that nobody can be a judge, yet promptly appoints himself as the sole judge of anything.

Even more odd, somehow he pretends to be unaware of the despotism he promotes in spite of the fact that everyone can see that he seeks a tinpot dictatorship.

Never going to happen, of course, still an amusing self contradictory conceit. I have lost track of which flavour of deity is de jour, but at this point it might as well be Qouetxalcoatl.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Like the senators who judged Trump, it is certainly a good exemple of what is your justice.

Wait, are you passing some judgment on the fairness of that "justice"?

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Trump administration named thousands of judges including supreme court.

Are you likewise passing some judgment on the fairness of that process as well?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by The Man

Wait, are you passing some judgment on the fairness of that "justice"?





Are you likewise passing some judgment on the fairness of that process as well?

yes

[Little 10 Toes]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Trump administration named thousands of judges including supreme court.

If you spent the same amount of time on U.S. politics that you do on economic theory ..... Wait, you do.

Two. Trump nominated two Supreme Court Justices. The Senate confirms the nomination.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

yes

So this...

Originally Posted by Gaetan

When i said ''Who is judge'' i meant that no one could be.

Was a lie?

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Trump administration named thousands of judges including supreme court.

What are those? They don't exist in my country.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by abaddon

What are those? They don't exist in my country.

Any judge from anywhere can't be just unless he says to his victim: ''You are free of charge''

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Any judge from anywhere can't be just unless he says to his victim: ''You are free of charge''

Huh? Judges don't judge victims. They judge perpetrators. Or litigants.

Or are we using custom definitions for words again?

[Gaetan]

If you fellows would realise it but money custom has you forgot to do, you would pay the maximum price for the work of your neighbour and ask to be paid the minimum for your work and that' the way good people should do, but we do the opposite to try to take advantage of people. There would be no rich or poor. Then the custom of money makes of you an unjust criminal and we have to stop it.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If you fellows would realise it but money custom has you forgot to do, you would pay the maximum price for the work of your neighbour and ask to be paid the minimum for your work and that' the way good people should do, but we do the opposite to try to take advantage of people. There would be no rich or poor. Then the custom of money makes of you an unjust criminal and we have to stop it.

Someone demanding free work and products has no basis to think someone else is taking advantage of anyone.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Any judge from anywhere can't be just unless he says to his victim: ''You are free of charge''

Judges don't have "victims". Judges apply law as written in the body of their countries body of laws.

With the exception of corrupt countries where everything has failed. Personally, I don't live in a corrupt failed state where the courts and justice have lost all value.

But let us consider that notion for a moment. Were I to live in a biblical state, where the rule of law was based on your magic book, what would be the consequences? Mob justice would be allowed, because the bible says so. Killing one's children would be justified, because the bible says so. Human sacrifice would be allowed at randon, because the bible tells us that god likes it. Slavery would be OK, because the bible says so. It even provides rules for how to do it.

A biblical justice system would, by definition, be a ghastly nightmare for all, particularly the vulnerable.

Somehow, that dystopian nightmare is what you seek. This is odd, because you promote heresies which would have you executed under such a system.

[Gaetan]

Experts say that to put people in prison fail to make of a guy a better person and rehabilitate him. Revenge is to apply the law of devil. Forgiveness is to apply the law of God, but the God you imagine is not the same as mine.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Experts say that to put people in prison fail to make of a guy a better person and rehabilitate him. Revenge is to apply the law of devil. Forgiveness is to apply the law of God, but the God you imagine is not the same as mine.

What does these lies have to do with the lies you've been asserting about judges having victims? Or Money?

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Any judge from anywhere can't be just unless he says to his victim: ''You are free of charge''

Great, so have you said to the "Trump administration" or "the senators who judged Trump" ''You are free of charge''? If not then your judgements of them are, just by your own standard, unjust.

Since your statements about them appear to be rebukes and not exoneration (''You are free of charge"). Then your assertions are simply unjust, just by your own standard.

Again, why do you want to be unjust?

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Experts say that to put people in prison fail to make of a guy a better person and rehabilitate him. Revenge is to apply the law of devil. Forgiveness is to apply the law of God, but the God you imagine is not the same as mine.

So have you forgiven people who use money or the 1% you rail against?

By all means, please, let us know when that happens.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If you fellows would realise it but money custom has you forgot to do, you would pay the maximum price for the work of your neighbour and ask to be paid the minimum for your work and that' the way good people should do,

No that's simply as unjust as your claim of wanting it the other way around.

Why do you want to be unjust, either way around?

Originally Posted by Gaetan

but we do the opposite to try to take advantage of people.

No you want to take advantage of people, as I'm sure others do but some don't.

Why do you want to be unjust, by taking advantage of people?

Originally Posted by Gaetan

There would be no rich or poor. Then the custom of money makes of you an unjust criminal and we have to stop it.

"the custom of money" didn't make you unjust, you simply choose to be that way. Similarly, as noted before it isn't, a system of money or no money that makes people just or unjust, but simply their actions within those system.



Why do you choose to be unjust?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by The Man

Great, so have you said to the "Trump administration" or "the senators who judged Trump" ''You are free of charge''? If not then your judgements of them are, just by your own standard, unjust.

Since your statements about them appear to be rebukes and not exoneration (''You are free of charge"). Then your assertions are simply unjust, just by your own standard.

Again, why do you want to be unjust?

I didn't mean to put Trump in prison for his crimes but to remove him from duties.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I didn't mean to put Trump in prison for his crimes but to remove him from duties.

Either way, you clearly don't what him to be free of your charges. Not all crime results in prison but just in some form of consequences. Likewise, you want there to be some consequences for Trump based on your judgement of his actions. ''You are free of charge'' would mean you are free of the consequences associated to those charges, whether they be prison or not.

So again, unless you say Trump should be free of the charges of your own judgment (which you lied about, that no one could be judge) you are being unjust, just by your own standard.

Why do you simply want to be unjust?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by The Man

Either way, you clearly don't what him to be free of your charges. Not all crime results in prison but just in some form of consequences. Likewise, you want there to be some consequences for Trump based on your judgement of his actions. ''You are free of charge'' would mean you are free of the consequences associated to those charges, whether they be prison or not.

So again, unless you say Trump should be free of the charges of your own judgment (which you lied about, that no one could be judge) you are being unjust, just by your own standard.

Why do you simply want to be unjust?

If you don't stop a criminal he may continue to make crimes all his life. I don't mean to put him in prison but to say: Hey, do you realise what you are doing? I don't think it is a punishment to relieve him from duties, it is even good for him , he could play golf all day, and you'll save a lot of people.