American Civil War II: Is It Coming?

shemp · 30th August 2020, 07:42 AM

I didn't think so a few months ago, but today I'm not so sure, mainly because of Trump's attacks on the integrity of our elections, and the prospect of having an election in which large numbers of Americans have no faith in the outcome. I think if this comes to pass there will be violence, it's only a question of degree.

Poll is up, multiple choice allowed, have at it!

The Great Zaganza · 30th August 2020, 08:10 AM

Both extremes of the ideological horseshoe think that we are already in a civil war

JoeMorgue · 30th August 2020, 08:13 AM

Civil Cold War maybe. And that's being 90% serious.

Thermal · 30th August 2020, 08:27 AM

Posit: protesting becomes more frequent. Carrying of weapons on street becomes banned/restricted in the interests of public safety. Police take a page from towns where rioting is quelled by minimal police interference. Does this nullify Civil War? Without guns, the right is castrated. Without fascist resistance, the left protests without rioting. All allowing for exceptions of course.

I'll bet if we lose the prevalence of bang sticks on the street that we suddenly have a much more manageable situation.

Brainster · 30th August 2020, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Posit: protesting becomes more frequent. Carrying of weapons on street becomes banned/restricted in the interests of public safety. Police take a page from towns where rioting is quelled by minimal police interference. Does this nullify Civil War? Without guns, the right is castrated. Without fascist resistance, the left protests without rioting. All allowing for exceptions of course.

I'll bet if we lose the prevalence of bang sticks on the street that we suddenly have a much more manageable situation.

A dubious assumption at best.

varwoche · 30th August 2020, 08:38 AM

Yes, if Trump wins. This fascist takeover might prevail, but not without massive upheaval.

Thermal · 30th August 2020, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Brainster

A dubious assumption at best.

I think we've been seeing it on action. Towns where police marched with protesters (ie Flint MI, Camden NJ) saw no violence. Towns that initially responded strong arm then backed off (Philly, Boston) saw pushback then mellowing.

Lurch · 30th August 2020, 08:53 AM

It's not Trump I fear so much as his mindless supporters and enablers. They are of a discomfiting number, which emboldens them and amplifies the herd mentality. The feedback loop involving them, their 'leader' and supporting propaganda organs is winding tighter a spring of fear and hate. How that energy is released when triggering events occur has fearful potential.

There may not be present sufficient passion to mobilize for a full on national civil war, but more limited skirmishes can be envisioned.

A nation awash in guns, with a tinderbox ready to be lit, is an outcome Putin could hardly have expected so soon after his cheap investment in Donny.

Wake up, America.

JoeMorgue · 30th August 2020, 08:56 AM

Our Trumpers are going to just do their standard screaming about "LOL overdramatic triggered libs" but what (most of us I think) are talking about isn't a real, true fear that we are gonna wake up on November 4th to find AOC leading a battalion of pink haired college genderfluids fighting Alex Jones and his Preatoran Guard of Qanoners for control of our local Burger King.

What we're worried about is an increasing level conspiracy theory twinged violence from people who live in a post-fact world and are impossible to reason with.

Safe-Keeper · 30th August 2020, 09:00 AM

I don't nearly know enough about the topic to say.

But some degree of civil upheaval, like large-scale protests, street fighting, gravy seals, et cetera? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. I imagine it to play out more like Portland or maybe the Troubles in Ireland than anything resembling civil war, however. Then again, as I said, I know next to nothing about civil wars, so I couldn't say.

For those who do believe a civil war, though, how do you think it will come about? Will the US military remain on Trump's side so that you have a kind of guerilla war, or is there a chance of parts of the armed forces defecting? Will states declare independence?

Honestly, the sheer size of the USA, and the might of the US military, is what makes me the most skeptical of a full-blown civil war even being possible.

varwoche · 30th August 2020, 10:01 AM

This isn't 1861. There are smarter, modern mechanisms.

Protests shut down every major city in a way that makes May-June seem like baby stuff. Special emphasis surrounding Trump properties.

Shut down every interstate, every airport.

Targeted DDoS attacks on massive scale.

Tax revolt. There is 0% chance I'm going to fund the fascist takeover, and I hope this becomes a movement.

Hack the power grid.

Etc.

I'm not saying it will work.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 30th August 2020, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Carrying of weapons on street becomes banned/restricted in the interests of public safety.

I think that would be a definite tinderbox moment. People marched on government buildings holding semi-automatic rifles and carrying swastikas and nooses over being unable to get a haircut because of lockdown restrictions. The 2nd amendment is a consistent and constant rallying cry for these people. How do you think they'd react to a curtailing of those 2nd amendment rights, real or perceived? I think it's safe to say that the answer is "not well".

To the more general question in the thread - yes, I'll be surprised if we don't see violence after the election, no matter the result.

MarkCorrigan · 30th August 2020, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

we are gonna wake up on November 4th to find AOC leading a battalion of pink haired college genderfluids fighting Alex Jones and his Preatoran Guard of Qanoners for control of our local Burger King.
.

I would pay to see that, it would be lightyears more interesting than what is probably actually going to happen.

I voted not going to happen in the forseeable. The only reason I didn't vote never is the possibility that somewhere down the line there might, maybe, be a kind of resource poor type thing.

theprestige · 30th August 2020, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I think that would be a definite tinderbox moment. People marched on government buildings holding semi-automatic rifles and carrying swastikas and nooses over being unable to get a haircut because of lockdown restrictions. The 2nd amendment is a consistent and constant rallying cry for these people. How do you think they'd react to a curtailing of those 2nd amendment rights, real or perceived? I think it's safe to say that the answer is "not well".

To the more general question in the thread - yes, I'll be surprised if we don't see violence after the election, no matter the result.

There's a difference between civil unrest and civil war.

Horatius · 30th August 2020, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Posit: protesting becomes more frequent. Carrying of weapons on street becomes banned/restricted in the interests of public safety. Police take a page from towns where rioting is quelled by minimal police interference. Does this nullify Civil War?

Sure, it probably would nullify a Civil War, because this scenario would effectively be one side simply surrendering to the other. What are the chances of that happening, though?

Thermal · 30th August 2020, 11:03 AM

The more I think about it, yeah, not a Civil War but a Supersized Culture War. Govt will basically be out of it but the citizenry will be polarizing in an unprecedented and violent scale.

crescent · 30th August 2020, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I think that would be a definite tinderbox moment. People marched on government buildings holding semi-automatic rifles and carrying swastikas and nooses over being unable to get a haircut because of lockdown restrictions. The 2nd amendment is a consistent and constant rallying cry for these people. How do you think they'd react to a curtailing of those 2nd amendment rights, real or perceived? I think it's safe to say that the answer is "not well".

To the more general question in the thread - yes, I'll be surprised if we don't see violence after the election, no matter the result.

If our current President wanted to strip Democratic dominated cities of political representation, then "defending the Second Amendment" would be a useful pretext for doing so.

If one pays attention to other nations, one knows that coups and power-grabs are usually accompanied by psuedo-legalistic justifications - wrapped in a flag and carrying the bible, so to speak. Citing one portion of a constitution as the basis for suspending other parts of a constitution is common in such events. Given the near-religious aura many ascribe to the 2nd, it is not hard to imagine that perceived threat to the 2nd could be that "justification" to start stripping Democratic state and city level politicians of power, as the feds step in to "defend" the 2nd Amendment.

The Atheist · 30th August 2020, 11:56 AM

No option for "It's already started" so I haven't voted.

Bikewer · 30th August 2020, 12:05 PM

Seems to me that if we step back a few paces from the few localized conflict areas, we’d see that the vast majority of the country is not experiencing these disturbances.

We are tempted to look at the worst-case stuff and extrapolate, but sometimes that extrapolation is not justified.

Stacyhs · 30th August 2020, 12:17 PM

In my city of Portland last night there were hundreds of Trump supporters who led a caravan into the city to deliberately escalate the tensions by confronting the protesters. They went armed with paint ball guns and shot at protesters from the back of pick up trucks. They also sprayed bear spray at protesters. A man was shot and killed which is being investigated. Instead of condemning the violence and calling for both sides to calm down and take a step back as any responsible POTUS would and should do, Trump is fanning the flames and praising these idiots for going into Portland and calling them "GREAT PATRIOTS" while only condemning the BLM protesters. Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest and violence for his own elections advantages. He is a sociopath and a clear and present danger to this country and only fools cannot see this.

rockysmith76 · 30th August 2020, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by varwoche

This isn't 1861. There are smarter, modern mechanisms.

Protests shut down every major city in a way that makes May-June seem like baby stuff. Special emphasis surrounding Trump properties.

Shut down every interstate, every airport.

Targeted DDoS attacks on massive scale.

Tax revolt. There is 0% chance I'm going to fund the fascist takeover, and I hope this becomes a movement.

Hack the power grid.

Etc.

I'm not saying it will work.

It wont, and those who do try such things are basically terrorists. If he wins by legit majority he wins, if Biden does, same deal. You seem ready to trash society all because your side didnt get its way.

Safe-Keeper · 30th August 2020, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

In my city of Portland last night there were hundreds of Trump supporters who led a caravan into the city to deliberately escalate the tensions by confronting the protesters. They went armed with paint ball guns and shot at protesters from the back of pick up trucks. They also sprayed bear spray at protesters. A man was shot and killed which is being investigated. Instead of condemning the violence and calling for both sides to calm down and take a step back as any responsible POTUS would and should do, Trump is fanning the flames and praising these idiots for going into Portland and calling them "GREAT PATRIOTS" while only condemning the BLM protesters. Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest and violence for his own elections advantages. He is a sociopath and a clear and present danger to this country and only fools cannot see this.

Between this open support of violence*, and deliberately letting covid wreak havoc on blue states for then to blame the Democrat governours, it's pretty clear the gloves are off. No more dog whistles if he wins in November. It will be overt facist rule. More than what we're seeing right now, that is.

*not that this is new or unexpected - we all remember he encouraged his followers to beat up political opponents at his rallies.

Venom · 30th August 2020, 12:55 PM

It's gonna be a cold civil war. Culture war if you like. In that sense you could argue that it is an ongoing conflict.

Meadmaker · 30th August 2020, 12:56 PM

I voted planet x, only because I couldn't put in a partial vote for one of the other options.

Just a few months ago I would have laughed at anyone who suggested the possibility. I probably did in some thread or another around here. Now, I'm not so sure.

And yes, it is Trump's fault. See stacyhs' post.

Meadmaker · 30th August 2020, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Seems to me that if we step back a few paces from the few localized conflict areas, we’d see that the vast majority of the country is not experiencing these disturbances.

We are tempted to look at the worst-case stuff and extrapolate, but sometimes that extrapolation is not justified.

One of the things that I think is fanning the flames is the isolation of our plague-infested lives. If we were leading normal lives, where we go to work in offices every day, and talk to friends and family on a regular basis, and go the 7-11 whenever we felt like it, I don't think any of this would be happening.

But here we are, locked up, isolated, wearing masks, working in our basements, and there is no stabilizing factor. If we are inclined to believe that the other side, whether Trump or BLM or Antifa or Nazis are crawling through our yards waiting to deny us our freedom and corrupt our precious bodily fluids, there isn't the usual stabilizing factor of friends and family to say, "Shut up about politics and deal the cards."

Instead, there's the TV or the internet telling us, "No. Those people are not as bad as you think they are. THEY'RE WORSE!!!! WATCH THIS!!!!!!!!!!!"

Stacyhs · 30th August 2020, 01:20 PM

Mayor Ted Wheeler of Portland just ripped Trump a new one. To put it in a nutshell: he told him to basically shut up as he is just encouraging the violence and unrest with his stupid tweets and rhetoric. He said what America needs is for Trump to be stopped.

zorro99 · 30th August 2020, 01:37 PM

TV News HQ
@TVNewsHQ
·
5m
Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler, who yesterday refused federal help, now blames President Trump for the violence: “Do you seriously wonder, Mr President, why this is the 1st time in decades that America has seen this level of violence? It’s you who have created the hate and division.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/TVNewsHQ/...70756987531264

BobTheCoward · 30th August 2020, 02:02 PM

I think this doesn't consider how much violence and political violence the system can absorb.

We could double the murder rate and still be at 90s levels.

There was a multi decade stretch where states coordinated with terrorists to promote racial supremacy and both parties at the federal level tolerated it.

Beating a senator in the chamber would be a real sign one is coming.

uke2se · 30th August 2020, 02:15 PM

I'd say the civil war has already started. It's in an escalating phase. It's not an interstate conflict, but a modern civil war where the in-group and out-group is ideologically - and to some extent, racially - delineated.

There's a good chance it could stop escalating and go back to slowly brewing with the occasional terror attack and murder, but given the anger on the streets and the apparent willingness from one side to keep attacking and provoking, I'd say it's going to keep going for some time.

Stacyhs · 30th August 2020, 02:17 PM

Putin is one happy guy. His investment in helping get Trump elected has paid off beyond his wildest dreams.

Safe-Keeper · 30th August 2020, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by zorro99

TV News HQ
@TVNewsHQ
·
5m
Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler, who yesterday refused federal help, now blames President Trump for the violence: “Do you seriously wonder, Mr President, why this is the 1st time in decades that America has seen this level of violence? It’s you who have created the hate and division.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/TVNewsHQ/...70756987531264

Wow, the trumpsters are out in force in the comments thread.

Meadmaker · 30th August 2020, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Putin is one happy guy. His investment in helping get Trump elected has paid off beyond his wildest dreams.

That is so true.

People think that he helped Trump because Trump and he were some sort of good buddies or had some sort of common agenda. I doubt that's the case. I was pretty sure in 2016 and pretty sure now that Putin's whole agenda was to sow discord in the United States. I'm pretty sure he even suspected that what that meant was to make sure there were a bunch of extremely adamant haters of President Hillary Clinton. When Trump won, it was a gift, and the way Trump has governed has made it the Best Christmas Ever in Moscow.

Stacyhs · 30th August 2020, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

That is so true.

People think that he helped Trump because Trump and he were some sort of good buddies or had some sort of common agenda. I doubt that's the case. I was pretty sure in 2016 and pretty sure now that Putin's whole agenda was to sow discord in the United States. I'm pretty sure he even suspected that what that meant was to make sure there were a bunch of extremely adamant haters of President Hillary Clinton. When Trump won, it was a gift, and the way Trump has governed has made it the Best Christmas Ever in Moscow.

Absolutely. Russia could never conquer the US in a military war without destroying itself as well. The only way to beat us was to destroy us from within and watch us collapse. Trump and his followers played right into his hands and still are and they're too stupid to see it.

Craig4 · 30th August 2020, 03:10 PM

After what I saw with the Trumptrash in Portland today, I'm going to revise my assessment and say I see a distinct possibility for widespread civil unrest short of war. I see a possibility of unrest and widespread, localized violence in a number of cities from the announcement of the winner to shortly after Biden is sworn in (assuming a Biden victory).

Trump was able to get his Trumptrash in Oregon together and move them through Portland engaging in unprovoked violence throughout the city. It was clear the way the convoy moved that it made the unrest in the city more widespread. The way the violence was localized to a couple of blocks made it difficult for Trump to claim Portland was burning. He had is gang of traitors and thugs move throughout downtown to make sure the violence was more wide spread. Having his people spread violence will justify deploying more DHS troops to the city.

angrysoba · 30th August 2020, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by varwoche

Shut down every interstate, every airport.

So, like the American Revolution, then?

theprestige · 30th August 2020, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by zorro99

TV News HQ
@TVNewsHQ
·
5m
Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler, who yesterday refused federal help, now blames President Trump for the violence: “Do you seriously wonder, Mr President, why this is the 1st time in decades that America has seen this level of violence? It’s you who have created the hate and division.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/TVNewsHQ/...70756987531264

Wheeler's reasoning doesn't make sense.

The protests are peaceful. The violence is just a few bad actors, primarily right-wing plants. It's not representative of the concerns, nor of the people raising those concerns. He's blaming Trump for a problem that largely doesn't exist.

And to the extent that people are rioting, they're not rioting about OMB in faraway Washington, D.C. They're rioting about issues closer to home: Their own city and state governments. Their own police forces. Their own social services. Largely, their own Democrat governments.

Take these people, for example, who occupied Mayor Wheeler's home yesterday:

BREAKING: Activists occupy Portland mayor Ted Wheeler’s apartment and aren’t leaving until he: resigns, abolishes the police by 2022 with no tech or private replacement, and allots saved resources to BIPOC communities and city services. #TearGasTed #AbolishPPB #WheelerResign

https://twitter.com/RisingTideNA/sta...16351963308038

Look at those hashtags. They're not complaining about "Tear Gas Trump." They're not calling for the abolition of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. They're not saying Trump needs to resign. Their demands are local. Their problems are local. I'm sure they're pissed off about President Trump. But their beef, their violence*, is local. Ted Wheeler, not Donald Trump, is the problem in Portland.

---
*To the extent that even is any violence.

CapelDodger · 30th August 2020, 05:21 PM

I voted "not in the foreseeable future" because the foreseeable future is so very short these days.

Stacyhs · 30th August 2020, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Wheeler's reasoning doesn't make sense.

The protests are peaceful. The violence is just a few bad actors, primarily right-wing plants. It's not representative of the concerns, nor of the people raising those concerns. He's blaming Trump for a problem that largely doesn't exist.

And to the extent that people are rioting, they're not rioting about OMB in faraway Washington, D.C. They're rioting about issues closer to home: Their own city and state governments. Their own police forces. Their own social services. Largely, their own Democrat governments.

Take these people, for example, who occupied Mayor Wheeler's home yesterday:

BREAKING: Activists occupy Portland mayor Ted Wheeler’s apartment and aren’t leaving until he: resigns, abolishes the police by 2022 with no tech or private replacement, and allots saved resources to BIPOC communities and city services. #TearGasTed #AbolishPPB #WheelerResign

https://twitter.com/RisingTideNA/sta...16351963308038

Look at those hashtags. They're not complaining about "Tear Gas Trump." They're not calling for the abolition of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. They're not saying Trump needs to resign. Their demands are local. Their problems are local. I'm sure they're pissed off about President Trump. But their beef, their violence*, is local. Ted Wheeler, not Donald Trump, is the problem in Portland.

---
*To the extent that even is any violence.

Trump is a large part of the problem because he is fanning the flames instead of trying to calm the violence. He is encouraging the violence because it supports his campaign narrative. When his supporters, whose objectives were to confront and antagonize BLM protesters in Portland, shot them with paint balls and sprayed them with a chemical of some sort out of the back of trucks, and he called them "Great Patriots", he's a huge part of the problem.

ETA: Trump talks about 'left-wing agitators'. When you come to downtown where there are BLM protesters flying Trump flags and have trucks decorated with Trump signs, armed with paint ball guns and toxic sprays, you're right-wing agitators.

Meadmaker · 31st August 2020, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

And to the extent that people are rioting, they're not rioting about OMB in faraway Washington, D.C. They're rioting about issues closer to home: Their own city and state governments. Their own police forces. Their own social services. Largely, their own Democrat governments.

They are flying Trump flags. They seem to think there is some sort of connection to faraway Washington D.C.

(Or anti-Trump flags/signs/whatever.)

ponderingturtle · 31st August 2020, 07:48 AM

The question is what is or is not a civil war. It is not going to be states succeeding and armies in the field type civil war. But clashing paramilitary groups and terrorism those are certainly going to increase.

So was Iraq in a civil war? was Norther Ireland? Was the 2014 Ukrainian revolution? Does Arab Spring count?

Political violence is going to be on the rise for quite some time, regardless of if you call it a civil war or not.

American Civil War II is coming soon, perhaps even soon after this election.	16	20.25%
American Civil War II is coming sometime in the next few years.	10	12.66%
American Civil War II is coming in the foreseeable future, but not for at least a decade or so..	4	5.06%
American Civil War II is not coming anytime in the foreseeable future.	30	37.97%
American Civil War II is never going to happen.	9	11.39%
American Civil War II is coming soon to Netflix, starring Dwayne Johnson!	13	16.46%
Planet X Civil War XXXVII is coming soon!	9	11.39%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

30th August 2020, 07:42 AM	#1
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 40,325	American Civil War II: Is It Coming? I didn't think so a few months ago, but today I'm not so sure, mainly because of Trump's attacks on the integrity of our elections, and the prospect of having an election in which large numbers of Americans have no faith in the outcome. I think if this comes to pass there will be violence, it's only a question of degree. Poll is up, multiple choice allowed, have at it!
	__________________ If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set. "...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, ~~Trump~~ shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will "[shemp is] a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality." - Shakespeare Last edited by shemp; 30th August 2020 at 07:49 AM.

30th August 2020, 08:10 AM	#2
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,683	Both extremes of the ideological horseshoe think that we are already in a civil war
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

30th August 2020, 08:13 AM	#3
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,693	Civil Cold War maybe. And that's being 90% serious.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

30th August 2020, 08:27 AM	#4
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,538	Posit: protesting becomes more frequent. Carrying of weapons on street becomes banned/restricted in the interests of public safety. Police take a page from towns where rioting is quelled by minimal police interference. Does this nullify Civil War? Without guns, the right is castrated. Without fascist resistance, the left protests without rioting. All allowing for exceptions of course. I'll bet if we lose the prevalence of bang sticks on the street that we suddenly have a much more manageable situation.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

30th August 2020, 08:31 AM	#5
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18,321	Originally Posted by Thermal Posit: protesting becomes more frequent. Carrying of weapons on street becomes banned/restricted in the interests of public safety. Police take a page from towns where rioting is quelled by minimal police interference. Does this nullify Civil War? Without guns, the right is castrated. Without fascist resistance, the left protests without rioting. All allowing for exceptions of course. I'll bet if we lose the prevalence of bang sticks on the street that we suddenly have a much more manageable situation. A dubious assumption at best.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

30th August 2020, 08:38 AM	#6
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,437	Yes, if Trump wins. This fascist takeover might prevail, but not without massive upheaval.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

30th August 2020, 08:52 AM	#7
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,538	Originally Posted by Brainster A dubious assumption at best. I think we've been seeing it on action. Towns where police marched with protesters (ie Flint MI, Camden NJ) saw no violence. Towns that initially responded strong arm then backed off (Philly, Boston) saw pushback then mellowing.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

30th August 2020, 08:53 AM	#8
Lurch Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 1,649	It's not Trump I fear so much as his mindless supporters and enablers. They are of a discomfiting number, which emboldens them and amplifies the herd mentality. The feedback loop involving them, their 'leader' and supporting propaganda organs is winding tighter a spring of fear and hate. How that energy is released when triggering events occur has fearful potential. There may not be present sufficient passion to mobilize for a full on national civil war, but more limited skirmishes can be envisioned. A nation awash in guns, with a tinderbox ready to be lit, is an outcome Putin could hardly have expected so soon after his cheap investment in Donny. Wake up, America.

30th August 2020, 08:56 AM	#9
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,693	Our Trumpers are going to just do their standard screaming about "LOL overdramatic triggered libs" but what (most of us I think) are talking about isn't a real, true fear that we are gonna wake up on November 4th to find AOC leading a battalion of pink haired college genderfluids fighting Alex Jones and his Preatoran Guard of Qanoners for control of our local Burger King. What we're worried about is an increasing level conspiracy theory twinged violence from people who live in a post-fact world and are impossible to reason with.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

30th August 2020, 09:00 AM	#10
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,395	I don't nearly know enough about the topic to say. But some degree of civil upheaval, like large-scale protests, street fighting, gravy seals, et cetera? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. I imagine it to play out more like Portland or maybe the Troubles in Ireland than anything resembling civil war, however. Then again, as I said, I know next to nothing about civil wars, so I couldn't say. For those who do believe a civil war, though, how do you think it will come about? Will the US military remain on Trump's side so that you have a kind of guerilla war, or is there a chance of parts of the armed forces defecting? Will states declare independence? Honestly, the sheer size of the USA, and the might of the US military, is what makes me the most skeptical of a full-blown civil war even being possible.
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

30th August 2020, 10:01 AM	#11
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,437	This isn't 1861. There are smarter, modern mechanisms. Protests shut down every major city in a way that makes May-June seem like baby stuff. Special emphasis surrounding Trump properties. Shut down every interstate, every airport. Targeted DDoS attacks on massive scale. Tax revolt. There is 0% chance I'm going to fund the fascist takeover, and I hope this becomes a movement. Hack the power grid. Etc. I'm not saying it will work.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

30th August 2020, 10:03 AM	#12
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,255	Originally Posted by Thermal Carrying of weapons on street becomes banned/restricted in the interests of public safety. I think that would be a definite tinderbox moment. People marched on government buildings holding semi-automatic rifles and carrying swastikas and nooses over being unable to get a haircut because of lockdown restrictions. The 2nd amendment is a consistent and constant rallying cry for these people. How do you think they'd react to a curtailing of those 2nd amendment rights, real or perceived? I think it's safe to say that the answer is "not well". To the more general question in the thread - yes, I'll be surprised if we don't see violence after the election, no matter the result.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

30th August 2020, 10:04 AM	#13
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 9,037	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue we are gonna wake up on November 4th to find AOC leading a battalion of pink haired college genderfluids fighting Alex Jones and his Preatoran Guard of Qanoners for control of our local Burger King. . I would pay to see that, it would be lightyears more interesting than what is probably actually going to happen. I voted not going to happen in the forseeable. The only reason I didn't vote never is the possibility that somewhere down the line there might, maybe, be a kind of resource poor type thing.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz They for example thought that slavery was perfectly fine, absolutely OK, and then they didn't and what is the point of the Catholic Church if it says "Oh we couldn't know better because no one else did" THEN WHAT ARE YOU FOR? - Stephen Fry

30th August 2020, 10:39 AM	#14
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,674	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim I think that would be a definite tinderbox moment. People marched on government buildings holding semi-automatic rifles and carrying swastikas and nooses over being unable to get a haircut because of lockdown restrictions. The 2nd amendment is a consistent and constant rallying cry for these people. How do you think they'd react to a curtailing of those 2nd amendment rights, real or perceived? I think it's safe to say that the answer is "not well". To the more general question in the thread - yes, I'll be surprised if we don't see violence after the election, no matter the result. There's a difference between civil unrest and civil war.

30th August 2020, 10:47 AM	#15
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,030	Originally Posted by Thermal Posit: protesting becomes more frequent. Carrying of weapons on street becomes banned/restricted in the interests of public safety. Police take a page from towns where rioting is quelled by minimal police interference. Does this nullify Civil War? Sure, it probably would nullify a Civil War, because this scenario would effectively be one side simply surrendering to the other. What are the chances of that happening, though?
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

30th August 2020, 11:03 AM	#16
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,538	The more I think about it, yeah, not a Civil War but a Supersized Culture War. Govt will basically be out of it but the citizenry will be polarizing in an unprecedented and violent scale.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

30th August 2020, 11:33 AM	#17
crescent Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 3,988	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim I think that would be a definite tinderbox moment. People marched on government buildings holding semi-automatic rifles and carrying swastikas and nooses over being unable to get a haircut because of lockdown restrictions. The 2nd amendment is a consistent and constant rallying cry for these people. How do you think they'd react to a curtailing of those 2nd amendment rights, real or perceived? I think it's safe to say that the answer is "not well". To the more general question in the thread - yes, I'll be surprised if we don't see violence after the election, no matter the result. If our current President wanted to strip Democratic dominated cities of political representation, then "defending the Second Amendment" would be a useful pretext for doing so. If one pays attention to other nations, one knows that coups and power-grabs are usually accompanied by psuedo-legalistic justifications - wrapped in a flag and carrying the bible, so to speak. Citing one portion of a constitution as the basis for suspending other parts of a constitution is common in such events. Given the near-religious aura many ascribe to the 2nd, it is not hard to imagine that perceived threat to the 2nd could be that "justification" to start stripping Democratic state and city level politicians of power, as the feds step in to "defend" the 2nd Amendment.

30th August 2020, 11:56 AM	#18
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,336	No option for "It's already started" so I haven't voted.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

30th August 2020, 12:05 PM	#19
Bikewer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 12,888	Seems to me that if we step back a few paces from the few localized conflict areas, we’d see that the vast majority of the country is not experiencing these disturbances. We are tempted to look at the worst-case stuff and extrapolate, but sometimes that extrapolation is not justified.

30th August 2020, 12:17 PM	#20
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,029	In my city of Portland last night there were hundreds of Trump supporters who led a caravan into the city to deliberately escalate the tensions by confronting the protesters. They went armed with paint ball guns and shot at protesters from the back of pick up trucks. They also sprayed bear spray at protesters. A man was shot and killed which is being investigated. Instead of condemning the violence and calling for both sides to calm down and take a step back as any responsible POTUS would and should do, Trump is fanning the flames and praising these idiots for going into Portland and calling them "GREAT PATRIOTS" while only condemning the BLM protesters. Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest and violence for his own elections advantages. He is a sociopath and a clear and present danger to this country and only fools cannot see this.

30th August 2020, 12:38 PM	#21
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by varwoche This isn't 1861. There are smarter, modern mechanisms. Protests shut down every major city in a way that makes May-June seem like baby stuff. Special emphasis surrounding Trump properties. Shut down every interstate, every airport. Targeted DDoS attacks on massive scale. Tax revolt. There is 0% chance I'm going to fund the fascist takeover, and I hope this becomes a movement. Hack the power grid. Etc. I'm not saying it will work. It wont, and those who do try such things are basically terrorists. If he wins by legit majority he wins, if Biden does, same deal. You seem ready to trash society all because your side didnt get its way.
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

30th August 2020, 12:52 PM	#22
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,395	Originally Posted by Stacyhs In my city of Portland last night there were hundreds of Trump supporters who led a caravan into the city to deliberately escalate the tensions by confronting the protesters. They went armed with paint ball guns and shot at protesters from the back of pick up trucks. They also sprayed bear spray at protesters. A man was shot and killed which is being investigated. Instead of condemning the violence and calling for both sides to calm down and take a step back as any responsible POTUS would and should do, Trump is fanning the flames and praising these idiots for going into Portland and calling them "GREAT PATRIOTS" while only condemning the BLM protesters. Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest and violence for his own elections advantages. He is a sociopath and a clear and present danger to this country and only fools cannot see this. Between this open support of violence, and deliberately letting covid wreak havoc on blue states for then to blame the Democrat governours, it's pretty clear the gloves are off. No more dog whistles if he wins in November. It will be overt facist rule. More than what we're seeing right now, that is. not that this is new or unexpected - we all remember he encouraged his followers to beat up political opponents at his rallies.
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

30th August 2020, 12:55 PM	#23
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,901	It's gonna be a cold civil war. Culture war if you like. In that sense you could argue that it is an ongoing conflict.

30th August 2020, 12:56 PM	#24
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,277	I voted planet x, only because I couldn't put in a partial vote for one of the other options. Just a few months ago I would have laughed at anyone who suggested the possibility. I probably did in some thread or another around here. Now, I'm not so sure. And yes, it is Trump's fault. See stacyhs' post.

30th August 2020, 01:04 PM	#25
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,277	Originally Posted by Bikewer Seems to me that if we step back a few paces from the few localized conflict areas, we’d see that the vast majority of the country is not experiencing these disturbances. We are tempted to look at the worst-case stuff and extrapolate, but sometimes that extrapolation is not justified. One of the things that I think is fanning the flames is the isolation of our plague-infested lives. If we were leading normal lives, where we go to work in offices every day, and talk to friends and family on a regular basis, and go the 7-11 whenever we felt like it, I don't think any of this would be happening. But here we are, locked up, isolated, wearing masks, working in our basements, and there is no stabilizing factor. If we are inclined to believe that the other side, whether Trump or BLM or Antifa or Nazis are crawling through our yards waiting to deny us our freedom and corrupt our precious bodily fluids, there isn't the usual stabilizing factor of friends and family to say, "Shut up about politics and deal the cards." Instead, there's the TV or the internet telling us, "No. Those people are not as bad as you think they are. THEY'RE WORSE!!!! WATCH THIS!!!!!!!!!!!"

30th August 2020, 01:20 PM	#26
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,029	Mayor Ted Wheeler of Portland just ripped Trump a new one. To put it in a nutshell: he told him to basically shut up as he is just encouraging the violence and unrest with his stupid tweets and rhetoric. He said what America needs is for Trump to be stopped.
	Last edited by Stacyhs; 30th August 2020 at 01:22 PM.

30th August 2020, 01:37 PM	#27
zorro99 Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 978	TV News HQ @TVNewsHQ · 5m Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler, who yesterday refused federal help, now blames President Trump for the violence: “Do you seriously wonder, Mr President, why this is the 1st time in decades that America has seen this level of violence? It’s you who have created the hate and division.” https://mobile.twitter.com/TVNewsHQ/...70756987531264
zorro99 Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 978	__________________ There is nothing as deceptive as an obvious fact.

30th August 2020, 02:02 PM	#28
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,256	I think this doesn't consider how much violence and political violence the system can absorb. We could double the murder rate and still be at 90s levels. There was a multi decade stretch where states coordinated with terrorists to promote racial supremacy and both parties at the federal level tolerated it. Beating a senator in the chamber would be a real sign one is coming.

30th August 2020, 02:15 PM	#29
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,181	I'd say the civil war has already started. It's in an escalating phase. It's not an interstate conflict, but a modern civil war where the in-group and out-group is ideologically - and to some extent, racially - delineated. There's a good chance it could stop escalating and go back to slowly brewing with the occasional terror attack and murder, but given the anger on the streets and the apparent willingness from one side to keep attacking and provoking, I'd say it's going to keep going for some time.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

30th August 2020, 02:17 PM	#30
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,029	Putin is one happy guy. His investment in helping get Trump elected has paid off beyond his wildest dreams.

30th August 2020, 02:31 PM	#31
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,395	Originally Posted by zorro99 TV News HQ @TVNewsHQ · 5m Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler, who yesterday refused federal help, now blames President Trump for the violence: “Do you seriously wonder, Mr President, why this is the 1st time in decades that America has seen this level of violence? It’s you who have created the hate and division.” https://mobile.twitter.com/TVNewsHQ/...70756987531264 Wow, the trumpsters are out in force in the comments thread.
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

30th August 2020, 02:49 PM	#32
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,277	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Putin is one happy guy. His investment in helping get Trump elected has paid off beyond his wildest dreams. That is so true. People think that he helped Trump because Trump and he were some sort of good buddies or had some sort of common agenda. I doubt that's the case. I was pretty sure in 2016 and pretty sure now that Putin's whole agenda was to sow discord in the United States. I'm pretty sure he even suspected that what that meant was to make sure there were a bunch of extremely adamant haters of President Hillary Clinton. When Trump won, it was a gift, and the way Trump has governed has made it the Best Christmas Ever in Moscow.

30th August 2020, 02:55 PM	#33
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,029	Originally Posted by Meadmaker That is so true. People think that he helped Trump because Trump and he were some sort of good buddies or had some sort of common agenda. I doubt that's the case. I was pretty sure in 2016 and pretty sure now that Putin's whole agenda was to sow discord in the United States. I'm pretty sure he even suspected that what that meant was to make sure there were a bunch of extremely adamant haters of President Hillary Clinton. When Trump won, it was a gift, and the way Trump has governed has made it the Best Christmas Ever in Moscow. Absolutely. Russia could never conquer the US in a military war without destroying itself as well. The only way to beat us was to destroy us from within and watch us collapse. Trump and his followers played right into his hands and still are and they're too stupid to see it.

30th August 2020, 03:10 PM	#34
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,592	After what I saw with the Trumptrash in Portland today, I'm going to revise my assessment and say I see a distinct possibility for widespread civil unrest short of war. I see a possibility of unrest and widespread, localized violence in a number of cities from the announcement of the winner to shortly after Biden is sworn in (assuming a Biden victory). Trump was able to get his Trumptrash in Oregon together and move them through Portland engaging in unprovoked violence throughout the city. It was clear the way the convoy moved that it made the unrest in the city more widespread. The way the violence was localized to a couple of blocks made it difficult for Trump to claim Portland was burning. He had is gang of traitors and thugs move throughout downtown to make sure the violence was more wide spread. Having his people spread violence will justify deploying more DHS troops to the city.