|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
23rd March 2010, 11:25 PM | #1 |
Thinker
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 146
|
The Emerald Tablets of Thoth
Has anyone heard of these tablets? People claim that they exist, but they don't give any physical evidence. All we have are these "translations".
These tablets are supposedly very ancient. They speak of things commonly known as New Age before the New Age movement even existed. They speak of Serpent-headed beings disguised as humans secretly ruling the humans. They speak of this before Cathy O'Brien or David Icke (the people who are at the head of the reptilian conspiracy theories) were even born (The first English translsation was apparently in 1925), and yet it doesn't seem likely that Icke or O'Brien based their own writings on these translations because these texts are not very well known (they don't even have a Wikipedia page lol) and from what I've seen of both their writings, they don't seem to have mentioned these texts. Also, the author of these supposed tablets claims that there is a spaceship under the Great Pyramid and apparently it has been discovered that there is a tunnel under the Great Pyramid. I have lots of reasons to be skeptical, but I'm still really curious about this stuff. Here is an excerpt about the Serpent people:
Quote:
http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald.html |
23rd March 2010, 11:36 PM | #2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 28,766
|
I tried them, but still didn't get an erection.
Or were those the blue tablets of Pfizer? I get confused a lot as I get older. I don't, however, get this confused. http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald.html Total hooey from start to finish. |
23rd March 2010, 11:59 PM | #3 |
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,487
|
Ah, dipping into the root of Hermeticism and the secrets of alchemy I see. Hermes Trismegistus is the supposed author ---- a legendary figure who was supposedly a combination of the Greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth. Thousands of ancient writings are attributed to him from something like 8000 years ago, although these "ancient" writings were most likely written by various early Greeks from Plato's time, amongst others IIRC. Googling some of these references should shed light on things I would think.
If you believe in the Greek and Egyptian gods and alchemical magic, you found the good stuff. I believe Edgar Cayce was on speaking terms with Hermes/Thoth I've personally enjoyed watching Marduk reply to these sorts of things. I will sit back and wait with hope for my prize ETA: I noticed you keep mentioning Icke, btw. Do you take Icke seriously? There is a correct answer to that question, unfortunately. Even I will admit to that ... |
24th March 2010, 12:12 AM | #4 |
Thinker
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 146
|
LOL
Quote:
Also, doesn't Icke say that his reptilians are interdimensional?
Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, I wonder how likely it is that the reptilian conspiracy-believers read this stuff before writing their books. It's very similar to what they are saying. ETA: I have come to the conclusion that Icke is definitely mentally ill and doesn't see reality the way most people do. Still, I want to know why this same story keeps coming up over and over. I wonder where it comes from and why it's always reptiles. |
24th March 2010, 12:17 AM | #5 |
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,487
|
|
24th March 2010, 12:19 AM | #6 |
Nasty Brutish and Tall
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,691
|
I had always assumed that Icke got all his ideas from Science Fiction TV shows like "V" (The original 70s one), Star Trek and Battlestar Gallactica.
Maybe we should be asking where the TV Producers got their ideas... I can imagine NBC execs wearing robes and chanting around a cauldren invoking ancient Hermes to determine their Fall Schedule. But maybe that's just me... |
24th March 2010, 12:25 AM | #7 |
Thinker
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 146
|
That makes sense.
I am not a reptilian conspiracy believer, but I have an irrational fear of such things turning out to be true. Even when the rational parts of mind argue that it's bullcrap, the irrational part is screaming, "What if it's true? What if it's true?" It's like how some people are afraid to be alone in the dark after watching a scary movie, even thought they don't really believe they'll be attacked by fictional movie monsters. However, this fear holds more power over me because there are many people actually claiming this stuff to be true (whether it is or not). So, let's just say I go the extra mile to try and debunk these things. Basically, I'm the official scaredy cat of the JREF forums. I've never watched any of those shows (except for parts of Star Trek here and there), so you could be right. Lol thanks a lot for that mental image. |
24th March 2010, 12:33 AM | #8 |
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,487
|
Why are you afraid of things like this "coming true"?
Quote:
It's how our memory works. It's how oral tradition works. It's how fiction works. It's how we work |
24th March 2010, 12:38 AM | #9 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,273
|
This isn't about coincidences. It's more likely that there is a cause and effect here, myths travel all the time.
The snake in the garden of eden is another example of a reptile messing around with us. What about Conan the Barbarian? What about V (the original, not the remake). Conspiracies has been around since ever and the notion of the myths of snakes, lizards, reptiles or dragons being wise or cunning is nothing new either. They just mix them up together. First lesson we were taught in film school: There is no such thing as original stories. Everything is based on something. As human beings we absorb the culture we are exposed to with or without our knowledge. How many tragic love stories do you know of a couple that love each other but can't be together? Even if the author never heard of Romeo and Julliet, it's likely to assume he read a story inspired by a story inspired by another story that at some point was inspired by Romeo and Julliet. Oh, and Romeo and Julliet wasn't the original either... As for why Reptiles? Well as I said above it goes all the way back to the garden of eden and even before that. Most like people found dinosaur bones and formed all sorts of stories about dragons, giant aligators and the likes. |
24th March 2010, 12:44 AM | #10 |
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,487
|
I was just about to use this as an example.
Imagine yourself in ancient China sitting around a camp fire. Everyone is looking at the dinosaur bone you have found, in awe of it's size (of course they do not know what a dinosaur bone is ... only that there are those bones everywhere that occassionally turn up). The teeth on the thing are enormous. As you raise the fossil up, there are shadows cast on the ground twice the size of the fossil that is in your hand. It's teeth resemble the formidable and feared crocodile that inhabits the swamps in your village. The crocodile is no better than the snake to most people. And as you're examining it, an owl flies overhead, swooping through the night, casting it's shadow into the mix with the bone. A bad omen indeed. Dinosaur bone. Fight/flight feeling from the nighttime. Fear of the alligator. Flying owl. Bad omen. Campfire. The fire-breathing, flying reptile known as the dragon is born. And you are the reason it is born. Better yet ... you are the POWER behind the dragon. Better yet, you can become a dragon yourself, like magic. Does that make you half human / half dragon? What an advantage to have in life ... especially over those who fear you and those whom you want to fear you. |
24th March 2010, 12:58 AM | #11 |
Thinker
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 146
|
I don't expect you to understand, since this will seem like a typical "woo" reply, but I have witnessed things that seemed to go beyond just the physical (I won't get into the details, as that would be going too far off topic), and as a result I can't help but believe in some sort of non-physical reality. So, if there is a chance that those things have a basis in reality, there is a part of me that wonders if some of those other things might have some basis in reality.
I know it sounds like a crazy thing to be afraid of, but I have no way of knowing that it's not true. That doesn't mean I believe it, but at the same time, I'm afraid that one day I might suddenly have a real reason to believe it. It's hard to stop my mind from going "What if?" Even though I think a lot of these conspiracy theorists are literally crazy, finding out about their conspiracy theories has kind of traumatized me. And since finding out that people believe all this stuff, part of me has been thinking, "If it doesn't have any basis in truth, why do so many people believe it? Why do so many people claim to have seen other people shapeshift into reptiles?" I know it's not a great argument, but since when has fear been rational? I know you're right about how these conspiracy theorists think and "research" (if you can call it that), but it's still hard to silence that voice saying, "What if?" I agree that none of these stories is completely original - I just think it's weird that the texts are saying exactly same thing as these conspiracy theorists - that there are reptiles disguised as humans ruling the world. You make a good point. Please bear with me. I'm still learning to think critically. It wasn't long ago that I was one of those people who believed what I was told about religion with "blind faith", so maybe that will help you to see where I'm coming from. I think I'm becoming infamous around here for being such a scaredy cat. |
24th March 2010, 01:22 AM | #12 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,273
|
But that is just the point... it's not weird.
It's all some derviation from some story. Like most conspiracies, there is a very simple explanation, it's just not glamorous or sexy enough to make it any fun to believe but it's true. Another lesson they taught us in film school: A good story is "Same but Different". People generally want to hear the same stories over and over again. It's easier to accept the suspense of disbelief when you are already acustomed to the general notion of the movie. So if you're basically asking why people keep picking on reptiles instead of rabbits or cows, it's because people are already acustomed to the notion of the reptile being cunning and manipulative that it's easier to follow that line. Again, blame your bible |
24th March 2010, 01:30 AM | #13 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,273
|
I don't see any problem with you at all. First, you admit to everything you do which is something most people never realize and it's a very good thing.
Second, you raise questions without fully jumping to conclusions while keeping an open mind and a polite civilized discussion. There's nothing wrong with that what so ever. |
24th March 2010, 01:31 AM | #14 |
Grammaton Cleric
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 7,114
|
It's cobblers. You're scaring yourself again. Stop it.
|
__________________
"The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain. |
|
24th March 2010, 01:53 AM | #15 |
Nasty Brutish and Tall
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,691
|
I think this is an excellent post. I know some people in the CT section have accused you of not being genuine, but I'm not one of them.
I hope the critical thinking works out for you and you can overcome the fear of these things and appreciate them for what they really are: Entertainment. |
24th March 2010, 01:57 AM | #16 |
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,487
|
|
24th March 2010, 02:07 AM | #17 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 28,766
|
Well, you're in the right place to fix that.
There are plenty real bad things to be scared of, but interstellar aliens sharing enough DNA with anything on this world to be even described as "reptilian" are about as likely as you winning the lottery three weeks running while going over Niagara falls in a barrel. Actually, vastly less so. The history of wild speculation , myth and general nonsense goes back to the mists of yesteryear.And then some. People have always imagined wierd stuff- and some have always totally believed it, while others wondered "what if?", others thought "That doesn't sound right" and some said "Totally hooey from start to finish". You're nearer the middle of the "normal" spectrum than you may think. If you're interested, you might read up on Blavatsky and theosophism and mystical "science". Some of what she and others said can be interpreted (and is) in terms of modern science. It's a universal truth that all nutcases love to explain their ideas in terms of "Quantum mechanics", because neither they, nor their listeners, understand it. ( If two ideas are incomprehensible, but one is apparently correct, then the other must be too. It's less "fuzzy logic" than diamond edged silliness. Little in Icke is original. This sort of stuff is old as the hills. It is still being churned out, using "scientific" word salad as dressing, by people like Jude Currivan. (Look her up. Nice lady, but full of hot air). My advice is don't try to comprehend too much of this stuff at one sitting. Big lies swamp rationality. You start to think there MUST BE SOMETHING in it. There isn't, any more than the Lays of Beleriand reflect reality. Start small. Read a few sceptical books. Keep asking yourself why science & rationality have taken us from alchemy to electronics in 300 years, but all the ancient wisdom since the mesolithic produced hee-haw. (Actually the REAL ancient wisdom is what we know about plants, animals and reality. The pyramids, ancient gods and stuff is just entertaining fantasy. Science is a damn sight more interesting than magic. It works. |
24th March 2010, 04:18 AM | #18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
|
|
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
|
24th March 2010, 05:08 AM | #19 |
The Terrible Trivium
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Nethescurial
Posts: 8,096
|
|
__________________
"The only thing you can do easily is be wrong, and that's hardly worth the effort." - Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth |
|
24th March 2010, 09:03 AM | #20 |
Semi-literate hench-person
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,466
|
I get obsessive thoughts, every once in a while-they seem to be harbingers of depressive bouts. I find that saying "it's not real" under my breath, as a mantra works as a palliative, until I can score a new celexxa 'scrip.
Be cool, Ms. Mallow.... |
__________________
"Damn, i think you are illeterate" |
|
24th March 2010, 09:17 AM | #21 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
|
|
24th March 2010, 10:08 AM | #22 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,927
|
Hi Marshmallow. No, you're not a scaredy cat. I can relate to what you're going through because it was only relatively recently that I was cheering on David Icke from the stalls of the Brixton Academy and thinking everything he said was true.
Like you, I found the biggest drawback to believing in conspiracy theories is that they leave you feeling so vulnerable, to the point where you're traumatised by believing this rubbish. Becoming a skeptoid is liberating in many ways, but I am trying to be an open-minded sceptic (ifyouseewhatImean). Now I'm on that journey where I apply the critical thinking that I apply in other areas of my life to conspiracy theories also. Like you, I still think that there is some non-physical reality and I think that science will be able explain this in good time. But that doesn't mean there's reptoids living there. No fear my friend! |
24th March 2010, 10:17 AM | #23 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,058
|
|
__________________
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!" Kurt Vonnegut |
|
24th March 2010, 10:27 AM | #24 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Defending the Alamo
Posts: 9,931
|
|
24th March 2010, 11:21 AM | #26 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
God, it does sound like something Robert E Howard would dream up. Except that Howard would not take it seriously.
|
24th March 2010, 11:31 AM | #27 |
Watching . . . always watching.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southeastern USA
Posts: 2,378
|
O the emerald tableth of Thoth
Get alchemetht all in a broth-- Their secretht hermetic Are frankly pathetic And theem made up from whole cloth. |
24th March 2010, 01:05 PM | #28 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hove, UK
Posts: 3,956
|
There's an "Emerald Tablet" ascribed to Hermes Trismegistos, believed to have lived 100-200 CE in Alexandria. It doesn't say anything about serpent-headed beings however. It's just two paragraphs, usually one of 5 sentences and one of 8, and it's a metaphorical tale about the ascent and descent of consciousness between the physical and spiritual realms, which people in those days believed in. Isaac Newton's translation is online if you look on wikipedia Emerald Tablet of Hermes.
Hermes and Thoth are seen as equivalent in a lot of metaphysical systems. Nick |
__________________
... they seek him here... they seek him there... those skeptics seek him everywhere... that damned, elusive... observer! Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth |
|
24th March 2010, 01:23 PM | #29 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 9,008
|
Mesopotanian religions had stuff like this all the time in their religion. Some Jewish rabbis say that Enki the snake God who created humans was actually the snake in the garden of eden that Yahway put in his place. I personally think this is hogwash.
|
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else. |
|
24th March 2010, 03:28 PM | #30 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,058
|
This is a good picture:
http://www.greatdreams.com/reptlan/reps.htm Reminds me of a Sleestak. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_...1974_TV_series) |
__________________
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!" Kurt Vonnegut |
|
24th March 2010, 03:47 PM | #31 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,934
|
No, no. You got it wrong. It's not "reptile-headed people", it's people with reptiles IN their heads - it's the Goa'uld! Calling SG-1!!
|
__________________
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty. If every cloud has a silver lining - doesn't that also mean every silver lining has a cloud? I have learned that if you upset your wife, she nags you. If you upset her even more you get the silent treatment. Don't you think it's worth the extra effort? If the early bird catches the worm - shouldn't the worm have stayed in bed? |
|
24th March 2010, 03:53 PM | #32 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mazes of Menace
Posts: 9,432
|
|
__________________
He bade me take any rug in the house. |
|
24th March 2010, 08:12 PM | #34 |
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,487
|
|
24th March 2010, 08:58 PM | #35 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 159
|
Exactly the point I was trying to drive. The more you learn about how fiction is constructed and the patterns it uses, the more you are able discern it from facts. Hence my previous linking to tv-tropes.
You need to learn how to unsuspend your disbelief! |
24th March 2010, 09:07 PM | #36 |
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,487
|
Last night I watched a bit of Galaxy Quest and it made me think of this thread.
Remember that flick? Where television transmissions of a Star Trek like TV show are picked up by aliens in space, and they take it to be historical evidence and truth. They then create their entire culture around it, thus making it real. The idea is a common one. Fiction becomes non-fiction to those who believe in it, and they actually bring the fiction to life as much as they can, thus reinforcing the idea that it's real. "Look .... the Starship Enterprise exists. That means Star Trek was real!" Yet they forget that they built the Enterprise with their own hands, based on a TV show |
25th March 2010, 04:11 AM | #37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,774
|
There was ever anything new about the new age movement. Just the same old nonsense dressed up in a new set of clothes.
Although I don't see what you think shapeshifting reptilians have to do with new age stuff. The new age was all about spirituality and feel-good stuff about universal oneness. Preferably involving crystals. Quantum ones if possible. The reptilian stuff is a completely separate bunch of conspiracy theorist nonsense, usually proclaiming plenty of doom and gloom and about as far from new age as you can get. Further back than you thought, maybe. I don't think Icke has ever made an original claim, he just regurgitates any ideas he comes across, provided they're insane enough for his tastes. I quite like the comparison between him and L. Ron Hubbard - Hubbard wrote some bad sci-fi and turned it into a religion. Icke read some bad sci-fi and turned it into a religion. Hubbard at least gets points for originality. |
25th March 2010, 04:24 AM | #38 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
|
Ok, my turn now ?
the oldest text purported to be from the Emerald tablets of thoth post dates 1100CE So any talk about ancient wisdom contained in them is just that, talk, and nothing else. Its well known (outside woo) that the entire concept of an emerald tablet full of wisdom is based on the Secretum secretorum, which is Arabic by origin, not greek, certainly not egyptian. Linking this text with a fabled God of wisdom is just a marketing ploy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretum_Secretorum Its all bollox frankly and you should be ashamed for believing in any word in it, doing so marks you down as having no critical thinking skills whatever Obviously you won't hear any of this from Icke or any other woo author as per usual they are relying on peoples gullibility to line their pockets Thats all he (thoth) wrote I mean come on, the emerald tablet of thoth is supposed to be written on an emerald tablet the size of a small table, doesn't that ring any alarm bells ? Well yes me too, even the bit about the Rabbis, especially as Enki wasn't a snake god and as the word Eden in any mesopotamian language just means "steppe". Apart from anything else it was Enlil (proto YHWH/God of the flood) who created humanity with the help of Mami the aptly named mother Goddess and the only serpent god is Ningishzida (Enkis great nephew) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida Snakes were regarded as beneficial in the ancient world (its scorpions who held the bad boy position) and symbols of immortality and healing, they didn't get a bad rep until after christianity came to prominence, even today they still only have a bad rep in the western world. But please, don't stop writing pseudo history. Stuff this easy to prove wrong is a valuable teaching aid |
25th March 2010, 05:37 AM | #39 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
|
Which leads me to some interesting supposition (somewhat off-topic, so I can take it to another thread if it gets involved).
As you say, snakes were viewed as symbols of healing and wisdom until after Christianity. I've always suspected this was a marketing ploy on the side of the new religion (Christianity and/or Judiasm) to discredit the older, more established religions in the area (no, that snake-god you worship? He's really the evil one tricking you into damnation!). Is there any historical evidence that points towards this? I suspect it's been investigated before. |
__________________
History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
|
25th March 2010, 05:47 AM | #40 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
|
lol, well theres a book you may have heard of
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0103.htm It was early church policy to demonise all previous religions as the work of Satan
Originally Posted by Clement of Alexandria
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|