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Tags assassinations , JFK assassination , John F. Kennedy , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 13th July 2018, 06:09 PM   #1361
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
My favorite alternate scenerio is still "Jackie shot him with a gun hidden in a stuffed dog on her lap" that I got last year in DC
Oh. My favourite is the "sniper in the drain" under the kerb in front of the grassy knoll; a sniper at ground level who would have had to shoot upwards past the bonnet of the limo, through the front windscreen, past Governor Connally; A sniper holding a rifle which HAD to have poked out of the drain slot (because there isn't room in there to aim a rifle at the required 10° without the barrel poking out), and which all the people lined up on both sides of Elm Street, failed to notice.
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Old 13th July 2018, 07:09 PM   #1362
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They've got a new Suppressed Witness now.

May I introduce you to Eugene Dinkin?

Information Clearing House says: "Private First Class Eugene Dinkin worked in Metz, France. He was a cryptographic code operator for the U.S. Army and in early November, 1963, three weeks before the assassination, he discovered something sobering, a plot to assassinate the President of the United States."

A google search turns up several pages of revelations about him, all in the same breathless here-is-the-Truth style. Yet he isn't mentioned on McAdams or David von Pein.

https://www.google.com/search?newwin....0.iv3m43o8m_M

What to make of this, except why would this ever so secret conspiracy send messages to someone in Europe?

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Old 13th July 2018, 09:02 PM   #1363
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Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
They've got a new Suppressed Witness now.

May I introduce you to Eugene Dinkin?

Information Clearing House says: "Private First Class Eugene Dinkin worked in Metz, France. He was a cryptographic code operator for the U.S. Army and in early November, 1963, three weeks before the assassination, he discovered something sobering, a plot to assassinate the President of the United States."

A google search turns up several pages of revelations about him, all in the same breathless here-is-the-Truth style. Yet he isn't mentioned on McAdams or David von Pein.

https://www.google.com/search?newwin....0.iv3m43o8m_M

What to make of this, except why would this ever so secret conspiracy send messages to someone in Europe?

This is a fairly new story, the earliest I can find is from July 11, 2018:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49828.htm

The story is being generated by a Jerry Kroth, PhD, out of Santa Clara University, CA. He has a book coming out about the assassination. Not only Dinkens, but a USAF crypto guy named Christensen ran something up the flag pole in early November, 1963 about an attempt on the President's life.

Dinkens went AWOL to do it. Both men were committed to psychiatric hospitals. I've seen the Dinken's CIA write-up. The guy never produced sources for his information, something both men would have been able to do in their positions. The problem is that both men were stationed in Europe at the time, and IF there was a plot it would have been generated out of Florida, and it's not a subject that would have appeared in any internal communications. It certainly would not have been discussed on an open, international phone line.

Dinkens did go public before the assassination, but to state that he was being persecuted, he said NOTHING about a threat on the President's life. That didn't happen until AFTER THE FACT, in an interview around November 26th.

Source:https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc....07#relPageId=2

So my BS detector is pegged deep in the red as usual.
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Old 14th July 2018, 12:12 AM   #1364
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This is a fairly new story, the earliest I can find is from July 11, 2018:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49828.htm

The story is being generated by a Jerry Kroth, PhD, out of Santa Clara University, CA. He has a book coming out about the assassination. Not only Dinkens, but a USAF crypto guy named Christensen ran something up the flag pole in early November, 1963 about an attempt on the President's life.

Dinkens went AWOL to do it. Both men were committed to psychiatric hospitals. I've seen the Dinken's CIA write-up. The guy never produced sources for his information, something both men would have been able to do in their positions. The problem is that both men were stationed in Europe at the time, and IF there was a plot it would have been generated out of Florida, and it's not a subject that would have appeared in any internal communications. It certainly would not have been discussed on an open, international phone line.

Dinkens did go public before the assassination, but to state that he was being persecuted, he said NOTHING about a threat on the President's life. That didn't happen until AFTER THE FACT, in an interview around November 26th.

Source:https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc....07#relPageId=2

So my BS detector is pegged deep in the red as usual.
Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
They've got a new Suppressed Witness now.

May I introduce you to Eugene Dinkin?

Information Clearing House says: "Private First Class Eugene Dinkin worked in Metz, France. He was a cryptographic code operator for the U.S. Army and in early November, 1963, three weeks before the assassination, he discovered something sobering, a plot to assassinate the President of the United States."

A google search turns up several pages of revelations about him, all in the same breathless here-is-the-Truth style. Yet he isn't mentioned on McAdams or David von Pein.

https://www.google.com/search?newwin....0.iv3m43o8m_M

What to make of this, except why would this ever so secret conspiracy send messages to someone in Europe?


Fake news!
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Old 14th July 2018, 08:10 PM   #1365
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Originally Posted by OKBob View Post
[...] Gerry Spence's cross-examination of Ruth Paige...]
I meant Ruth Paine, of course.
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Old 17th July 2018, 07:55 AM   #1366
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Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
They've got a new Suppressed Witness now.

May I introduce you to Eugene Dinkin?
New? who are They? Dinkin has been around for quite awhile... and what is a "Suppressed Witness"?

Quote:
Information Clearing House says: "Private First Class Eugene Dinkin worked in Metz, France. He was a cryptographic code operator for the U.S. Army and in early November, 1963, three weeks before the assassination, he discovered something sobering, a plot to assassinate the President of the United States."
Dinkin's duty had been to decipher telegraphic traffic originating with the French OAS.

Quote:
A google search turns up several pages of revelations about him, all in the same breathless here-is-the-Truth style. Yet he isn't mentioned on McAdams or David von Pein.
Not sure what you mean by "same breathless here-is-the-truth" but it is a shame that McAdams or von Pein do not mention him as he is a real-life individual who made an attempt to warn various officials about an impending assassination.

Quote:
What to make of this, except why would this ever so secret conspiracy send messages to someone in Europe?
The messages he read were from Europe and the OAS was very close to the CIA.

Dinkin was scheduled for a psychiatric evaluation in early November and he stated that he went AWOL because he felt he would be confined before and during the attempt on President Kennedy. His original date for the event was a few days after the actual assassination, so he was not 100% accurate. He did however, write and send via Registered Mail a letter to Attorney General Robert Kennedy in October of '63 outlining the assassination and that the Communists would be blamed (The FBI acknowledged the letter in a memo dated April 3, 1964 but nothing was done). Dinkin put the return address under the name of PFC Dennis DeWitt because he felt his communication going outside the Service would be suppressed (not unreasonable due to his soon to be psychiatric evaluation).

When Dinkin went AWOL; he was not underground. He traveled to Switzerland... went to Newspapers and Magazines without success. Dinkin then visited the US Embassy in Bonn Germany and their advice was for him to return to his base. Dinkin did just that; immediately landed in the Landsthul Hospital and confined to the psychiatric ward until the assassination was completed. It is sort of coincidental and ironic that Richard Case Nagell wanted to be confined during the assassination and Dinkin did not; even though they both felt they had prior knowledge of the impending assassination.

Note: Dinkin said he "discovered" the plot via subliminal messages in newspapers. I am not sure how true that is since he had already had security clearance (which was later revoked) to conduct his duties on Base since he was assigned to the OAS desk. It looks like a situation where he did not want to be court-martialed for giving up classified information. This last sentence is pure speculation...
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Old 17th July 2018, 08:11 AM   #1367
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post

Bonus point: Odds on mafiosi favorite for the shooter in the Giancana murder? Tony Spilotro, Giancana favorite underling and (somewhat fictionally) depicted by Joe Pesci in the film Casino.
I just re-watched Casino a few weeks ago. It brought back memories of the news reporting how the Spilotro brothers were unearthed in an Indiana corn field.
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Old 17th July 2018, 08:52 AM   #1368
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This is a fairly new story, the earliest I can find is from July 11, 2018:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49828.htm
This may be new for you but it has been around from "Day 1" regarding the JFK assassination. His name is Eugene B. Dinkin NOT "Dinkens".

Quote:
The story is being generated by a Jerry Kroth, PhD, out of Santa Clara University, CA. He has a book coming out about the assassination. Not only Dinkens, but a USAF crypto guy named Christensen ran something up the flag pole in early November, 1963 about an attempt on the President's life.

Dinkens went AWOL to do it. Both men were committed to psychiatric hospitals. I've seen the Dinken's CIA write-up.
You forgot to mention that Dinkin was committed to the psychiatric ward AFTER the assassination. I am not saying the guy is sane or insane but context is useful.

Quote:
The guy never produced sources for his information, something both men would have been able to do in their positions.
Of course he could produce the source... and get court-martialed at the same time if those sources were captured during the course of his eaves dropping on the French. Dinkin later said his information came from the "Stars and Stripes" publication via subliminal messages.

Quote:
The problem is that both men were stationed in Europe at the time, and IF there was a plot it would have been generated out of Florida, and it's not a subject that would have appeared in any internal communications. It certainly would not have been discussed on an open, international phone line.
1. Why Florida ( you are creating your own straw man)? Dinkin's responsibility was monitoring telegraphic communication pertaining to the OAS in Europe. It would be cumbersome to monitor telegraphic communications in Europe outside of Europe in 1963.

2. Please provide your source about the discussion on the "international phone line."

Quote:
Dinkens did go public before the assassination, but to state that he was being persecuted, he said NOTHING about a threat on the President's life.
The CIA memo clearly states that the Stringer for Time-Life was writing a story on November 26, 1963 about Dinkin's visit to the United Nations (11-6/7-1963)where he said "'they' were plotting against President Kennedy and that 'something' would happen in Texas.'

You are 100% correct he did not say that President Kennedy's life was threatened. It is also perfectly understandable that Officials would not take any action what-so-ever when a Cryptographer monitoring the secret service of France proclaims that there is a plot against President Kennedy on his upcoming visit to Texas.


Quote:
So my BS detector is pegged deep in the red as usual.
What is your "BS Detector" detecting with Eugene Dinkin?
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Old 17th July 2018, 08:57 AM   #1369
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Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
What to make of this, except why would this ever so secret conspiracy send messages to someone in Europe?
Who said anybody sent any message to Europe? I am sure you have sources for this fact...
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:10 AM   #1370
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
New? who are They? Dinkin has been around for quite awhile...
Really? Curiously, he's not mentioned in any of the books I have on the assassination, and I have over 500.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
...and what is a "Suppressed Witness"?
Someone coming forward with a story not covered in the "Warren Report".


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Dinkin's duty had been to decipher telegraphic traffic originating with the French OAS.
Evidence?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Not sure what you mean by "same breathless here-is-the-truth"...
The kind of writing style that makes the Enquirer so much fun... Elvis' Two-Headed Alien Baby Pictures' kind of stuff.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
but it is a shame that McAdams or von Pein do not mention him as he is a real-life individual who made an attempt to warn various officials about an impending assassination.
Evidence?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
The messages he read were from Europe and the OAS was very close to the CIA.
Painting with a rather broad brush works for you? They each have three letters in their abbreviation - that was the only connection I'm aware of. If you have more, I'm sure you'll cite your sources and make a reasoned argument.

Which of these OAS definitions are you speaking about, specifically?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OAS


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Dinkin was scheduled for a psychiatric evaluation in early November and he stated that he went AWOL because he felt he would be confined before and during the attempt on President Kennedy.
Evidence? Since he didn't go to Dallas to stop the assassination even after he went AWOL, how would being confined affect the assassination in any way? What point are you trying to make here?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
His original date for the event was a few days after the actual assassination, so he was not 100% accurate.
Evidence he actually claimed anything about the assassination BEFORE the assassination? Anybody can make a claim after the fact and usually those types of predictions are pretty accurate.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
He did however, write and send via Registered Mail a letter to Attorney General Robert Kennedy in October of '63 outlining the assassination and that the Communists would be blamed
So Robert Kennedy knew of the assassination attempt in advance and knew Oswald was being framed after the assassination but did nothing to stop it to come to Oswald's defense? Is that seriously your argument here? Didn't RFK at least forward the claim to the Secret Service and the President? Did they both ignore it? Where's the evidence RFK received any such registered letter?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
(The FBI acknowledged the letter in a memo dated April 3, 1964 but nothing was done).
Where is this acknowledgement of a letter received by RFK?

Nothing was done by RFK, by the Justice Dept, and by the FBI? Were they all negligent or all involved in the cover-up? What point are you trying to make here, and what's the evidence for your point?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Dinkin put the return address under the name of PFC Dennis DeWitt because he felt his communication going outside the Service would be suppressed (not unreasonable due to his soon to be psychiatric evaluation).
Why would DeWitt's prediction be seen as more reasonable? Does the source matter or do the facts matter?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
When Dinkin went AWOL; he was not underground.
He wasn't exactly letting the Army know where he was. He was in hiding, in effect.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
He traveled to Switzerland... went to Newspapers and Magazines without success.
Tell us why. Do you think they perhaps felt he was a looney-tune and weren't going to print his ramblings? Nowadays, on the internet, we can read the ramblings of every looney-tune who knows how to set up a blog, but actual newspapers have to vet their news sources.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Dinkin then visited the US Embassy in Bonn Germany and their advice was for him to return to his base. Dinkin did just that; immediately landed in the Landsthul Hospital and confined to the psychiatric ward until the assassination was completed.
Again, since he had opportunity to travel to the US and supposedly stop the assassination, but didn't, this is just the illogic of "If A precedes B, then A causes B". You need to show an actual connection that his being confined was due to his foreknowledge and not simply because he was a nutcase. As always, you're just assuming what you need to prove.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
It is sort of coincidental and ironic that Richard Case Nagell wanted to be confined during the assassination and Dinkin did not; even though they both felt they had prior knowledge of the impending assassination.
Again, you're stating as a "fact" something that is only a claim advanced years after the event. Nagell was arrested shortly before the assassination for attempting to rob a bank and was incarcerated at the time of the assassination. It is his claim he did this so he would have an alibi for the assassination and couldn't be framed for it... but that is his claim only, and only made well after the fact. There's no evidence that was the reason he tried to rob a bank.

I wonder what you would say if Dillinger advanced that reason for attempting to rob banks... his excuse was a little more believable, he claimed he robbed banks 'because that's where the money is'.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Note: Dinkin said he "discovered" the plot via subliminal messages in newspapers. I am not sure how true that is...
Really? You're not sure? You think getting subliminal messages through newspapers predicting future events is at least theoretically *possible*? How would the newspapers know of these future events to put them into subliminal messages?

Dinkin is a nutcase, pure and simple.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
...since he had already had security clearance (which was later revoked) to conduct his duties on Base since he was assigned to the OAS desk.
You're above again assuming what you need to prove. Contrary to Dinkin's own assertions, you're assuming he lied about his supposed prediction's source and actually had foreknowledge through his position somehow. But you haven't established that. You've only assumed it. And you've assumed he's not a nutcase, you've assumed he actually had foreknowledge, you've assumed he wrote a letter to RFK...


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
It looks like a situation where he did not want to be court-martialed for giving up classified information. This last sentence is pure speculation...
Actually, your entire post would pretty much qualify as pure speculation.

Hank
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Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:13 AM   #1371
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Dinkin then visited the US Embassy in Bonn Germany and their advice was for him to return to his base. Dinkin did just that; immediately landed in the Landsthul Hospital and confined to the psychiatric ward until the assassination was completed.
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
You forgot to mention that Dinkin was committed to the psychiatric ward AFTER the assassination.
Can you at least get the story you're telling straight?

In the first quote, he is confined prior to the assassination and remains confined until after the assassination. You contradict that in the second quote, saying he was only committed to the pyschiatric ward after the assassination.

Well, which is it?

Cite the sources for your contrary arguments above.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:39 AM   #1372
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Can you at least get the story you're telling straight?

In the first quote, he is confined prior to the assassination and remains confined until after the assassination. You contradict that in the second quote, saying he was only committed to the pyschiatric ward after the assassination.

Well, which is it?

Cite the sources for your contrary arguments above.

Hank
You are correct, I typed too fast and omitted the word "until"; I meant to say "until after". The phrase certainly could have been written slower and better. The second being "Dinkin was committed to the psychiatric ward and held "until after" the assassination. He was then transferred to Walter Reed Hospital and later discharged.

Last edited by No Other; 17th July 2018 at 09:43 AM. Reason: left out some words
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:42 AM   #1373
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Who said anybody sent any message to Europe? I am sure you have sources for this fact...
If there weren't any messages to Europe about the assassination, then Dinkin's position couldn't have revealed anything about an assassination attempt... that leaves him getting his messages by reading entrails, tea leaves, or subliminal messages in Stars and Stripes.

What do you think was Dinkin's source for his claims?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:46 AM   #1374
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Cite the sources for your contrary arguments above.

Hank
The link that Axxman provided is one source for my contrary arguments.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:46 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
You are correct, I typed too fast and omitted the word "until"; I meant to say "until after". The phrase certainly could have been written slower and better. The second being "Dinkin was committed to the psychiatric ward and held "until after" the assassination. He was then transferred to Walter Reed Hospital and later discharged.
Again, what does this have to do with the assassination, and what's the evidence for that?

It appears from here you're simply presuming what you need to prove.

Now that you've corrected your gaffe, how about providing the evidence for whatever argument you're trying to advance?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:47 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
The link that Axxman provided is one source for my contrary arguments.
Quote. Cite. Argue for your interpretation.

Or just leave it at assuming what you need to prove.

Your call.

Hank

PS: You already admitted your contrary arguments were in error, correcting one of your claims here:
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
You are correct, I typed too fast and omitted the word "until"; I meant to say "until after". The phrase certainly could have been written slower and better. The second being "Dinkin was committed to the psychiatric ward and held "until after" the assassination. He was then transferred to Walter Reed Hospital and later discharged.
Now you're blaming a link provided by another poster for the claim you already admitted was in error and corrected. Can you at least get your story straight from post to post?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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Old 17th July 2018, 09:47 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
If there weren't any messages to Europe about the assassination, then Dinkin's position couldn't have revealed anything about an assassination attempt... that leaves him getting his messages by reading entrails, tea leaves, or subliminal messages in Stars and Stripes.

What do you think was Dinkin's source for his claims?

Hank
Why would there have to be messages to Europe about the assassination attempt?
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:50 AM   #1378
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post

What is your "BS Detector" detecting with Eugene Dinkin?
BS.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:51 AM   #1379
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Quote. Cite. Argue for your interpretation.

Or just leave it at assuming what you need to prove.

Your call.

Hank
What I did was provide the proper extraction within the paragraph that Axxman provided. On my reply to the post I agreed that Dinkin did not say the President's life is in danger but that Dinkin said there was a plot that would be carried out in Texas.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:53 AM   #1380
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
Information Clearing House says: "Private First Class Eugene Dinkin worked in Metz, France. He was a cryptographic code operator for the U.S. Army and in early November, 1963, three weeks before the assassination, he discovered something sobering, a plot to assassinate the President of the United States."

... What to make of this, except why would this ever so secret conspiracy send messages to someone in Europe?
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Who said anybody sent any message to Europe? I am sure you have sources for this fact...
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
If there weren't any messages to Europe about the assassination, then Dinkin's position couldn't have revealed anything about an assassination attempt... that leaves him getting his messages by reading entrails, tea leaves, or subliminal messages in Stars and Stripes.

What do you think was Dinkin's source for his claims?
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Why would there have to be messages to Europe about the assassination attempt?
Asked and answered immediately above.

Here it is again.
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
If there weren't any messages to Europe about the assassination, then Dinkin's position couldn't have revealed anything about an assassination attempt... that leaves him getting his messages by reading entrails, tea leaves, or subliminal messages in Stars and Stripes.

What do you think was Dinkin's source for his claims?
What about my point did you fail to understand?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:55 AM   #1381
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
What I did was provide the proper extraction within the paragraph that Axxman provided. On my reply to the post I agreed that Dinkin did not say the President's life is in danger but that Dinkin said there was a plot that would be carried out in Texas.
And what was Dinkin's source for the claim?

In your view?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:56 AM   #1382
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Really? You're not sure? You think getting subliminal messages through newspapers predicting future events is at least theoretically *possible*? How would the newspapers know of these future events to put them into subliminal messages?
Interestingly, newspapers get archived. So if there were a "subliminal message" about the assassination, it should be possible to point to the newspaper in question and identify said message.

Now, anyone actually serious about following up this guy's story would actually be doing that (or have it already done). Where is the CT author who has found those subliminal messages?
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:59 AM   #1383
No Other
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Quote. Cite. Argue for your interpretation.

Or just leave it at assuming what you need to prove.

Your call.

Hank

PS: You already admitted your contrary arguments were in error, correcting one of your claims here:

Now you're blaming a link provided by another poster for the claim you already admitted was in error and corrected. Can you at least get your story straight from post to post?

Hank
Everybody on this thread has made a "typo", I said I made a "typo"... what more do you want? You continue to go down a rabbit hole; do you want to discuss this or continue to point out a typo that I readily agreed was in error?

In short I said or meant to say:

1. The Dinkin story is not new
2. Dinkin made attempts to make it public
3. I do not know his sources but I posted (not quoted) what he told authorities
4. I asked what made Axxman's BS meter peg red
5. His confinement lasted through the assassination

If you wish to argue about my typo's then let's not let this topic of Dinkins interfere with that.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:04 AM   #1384
No Other
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Interestingly, newspapers get archived. So if there were a "subliminal message" about the assassination, it should be possible to point to the newspaper in question and identify said message.

Now, anyone actually serious about following up this guy's story would actually be doing that (or have it already done). Where is the CT author who has found those subliminal messages?
I brought up subliminal messages but did not say I found them or even agreed that they were subliminal. Try this link for past issues of Stars and Stripes.

http://starsandstripes.newspaperarchive.com
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:08 AM   #1385
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Interestingly, newspapers get archived. So if there were a "subliminal message" about the assassination, it should be possible to point to the newspaper in question and identify said message.

Now, anyone actually serious about following up this guy's story would actually be doing that (or have it already done). Where is the CT author who has found those subliminal messages?
CTs don't want to believe the guy's a nutcase, so they discount the claim about subliminal messages and want to assume he must have gotten the information via his Army position in cryptography.

They allege therefore that Dinkins said he was getting the messages subliminally only as a cover story, to prevent the Army from court-martially him for revealing information he obtained via his position.

All that is assumption, none of it is proven. They call Dinkins a liar while accepting other parts of his claims. They are not interested in the subliminal part whatsoever except to discount it.

NoOther has suggested as much in his posts.

For instance, here:
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
The messages he read were from Europe and the OAS was very close to the CIA.

...

Note: Dinkin said he "discovered" the plot via subliminal messages in newspapers. I am not sure how true that is since he had already had security clearance (which was later revoked) to conduct his duties on Base since he was assigned to the OAS desk. It looks like a situation where he did not want to be court-martialed for giving up classified information. This last sentence is pure speculation
...
Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:10 AM   #1386
No Other
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Asked and answered immediately above.

Here it is again.


What about my point did you fail to understand?

Hank
What you posted were not answers; you just re-posted a claim.

My question was straight forward... "Who said anybody sent any message to Europe? I am sure you have sources for this fact... "

Who said anybody sent any message to Europe? Can you answer this or do you even care where Major Major got his information?
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:13 AM   #1387
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
CTs don't want to believe the guy's a nutcase, so they discount the claim about subliminal messages and want to assume he must have gotten the information via his Army position in cryptography.

They allege therefore that Dinkins said he was getting the messages subliminally only as a cover story, to prevent the Army from court-martially him for revealing information he obtained via his position.

All that is assumption, none of it is proven. They call Dinkins a liar while accepting other parts of his claims. They are not interested in the subliminal part whatsoever except to discount it.

NoOther has suggested as much in his posts.

For instance, here:


Hank
Questioning a comment is not calling someone a Liar. Since you used me as an example... point out where I called Dinkin a Liar.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:14 AM   #1388
BStrong
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post

You are 100% correct he did not say that President Kennedy's life was threatened. It is also perfectly understandable that Officials would not take any action what-so-ever when a Cryptographer monitoring the secret service of France proclaims that there is a plot against President Kennedy on his upcoming visit to Texas.


What is your "BS Detector" detecting with Eugene Dinkin?
Facts matter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organi...e_secr%C3%A8te


Secret Army Organisation

The Organisation armée secrète or OAS (meaning Secret Army Organisation) was a short-lived right-wing[1] French dissident paramilitary organization during the Algerian War (1954–62). The OAS carried out terrorist attacks, including bombings and assassinations, in an attempt to prevent Algeria's independence from French colonial rule.[1][2] Its motto was L’Algérie est française et le restera ("Algeria is French and will remain so").

The OAS was formed out of existing networks, calling themselves "counter-terrorists", "self-defence groups", or "resistance", which had carried out attacks on the FLN (Algerian National Liberation Front) and their perceived supporters since early in the war. It was officially formed in Francoist Spain, in Madrid in January 1961, as a response by some French politicians and French military officers to the 8 January 1961 referendum on self-determination concerning Algeria, which had been organised by General de Gaulle.

By acts of bombings and targeted assassinations in both metropolitan France and French Algerian territories, which are estimated to have resulted in 2,000 deaths between April 1961 and April 1962, the OAS attempted to prevent Algerian independence. This campaign culminated in a wave of attacks that followed the March 1962 Evian agreements, which granted independence to Algeria and marked the beginning of the exodus of the pieds-noirs, and in Jean-Marie Bastien-Thiry's 1962 assassination attempt against president de Gaulle in the Paris suburb of Le Petit-Clamart. Another prominent target was the existentialist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre, who supported the FLN.


The OAS was in no way a French government intelligence agency. The were a renegade right wing faction attempting to stop the French government from granting Algeria independence.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:14 AM   #1389
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I brought up subliminal messages but did not say I found them or even agreed that they were subliminal. Try this link for past issues of Stars and Stripes.

http://starsandstripes.newspaperarchive.com
Negative. You're shifting the burden of proof.

If you cite Dinkins, you must either establish the subliminal message claim HE MADE, or provide evidence he learned of the assassination through his position.

You are assuming he lied about the subliminal messages, and assuming he learned about the assassination through his position.

In short, you're assuming everything you need to prove.

Without those assumptions you make, we have a nutcase claiming he predicted the assassination through subliminal messages in Stars and Stripes.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:17 AM   #1390
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Facts matter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organi...e_secr%C3%A8te


Secret Army Organisation

The Organisation armée secrète or OAS (meaning Secret Army Organisation) was a short-lived right-wing[1] French dissident paramilitary organization during the Algerian War (1954–62). The OAS carried out terrorist attacks, including bombings and assassinations, in an attempt to prevent Algeria's independence from French colonial rule.[1][2] Its motto was L’Algérie est française et le restera ("Algeria is French and will remain so").

The OAS was formed out of existing networks, calling themselves "counter-terrorists", "self-defence groups", or "resistance", which had carried out attacks on the FLN (Algerian National Liberation Front) and their perceived supporters since early in the war. It was officially formed in Francoist Spain, in Madrid in January 1961, as a response by some French politicians and French military officers to the 8 January 1961 referendum on self-determination concerning Algeria, which had been organised by General de Gaulle.

By acts of bombings and targeted assassinations in both metropolitan France and French Algerian territories, which are estimated to have resulted in 2,000 deaths between April 1961 and April 1962, the OAS attempted to prevent Algerian independence. This campaign culminated in a wave of attacks that followed the March 1962 Evian agreements, which granted independence to Algeria and marked the beginning of the exodus of the pieds-noirs, and in Jean-Marie Bastien-Thiry's 1962 assassination attempt against president de Gaulle in the Paris suburb of Le Petit-Clamart. Another prominent target was the existentialist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre, who supported the FLN.


The OAS was in no way a French government intelligence agency. The were a renegade right wing faction attempting to stop the French government from granting Algeria independence.
And they existed through 1962.

It was either that, or he was talking about the Organization of American States (a coalition of North and South American countries).

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:23 AM   #1391
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Questioning a comment is not calling someone a Liar. Since you used me as an example... point out where I called Dinkin a Liar.
Asked and answered.

You suggested he told that subliminal message story solely as a cover-story to avoid court-martial.

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Note: Dinkin said he "discovered" the plot via subliminal messages in newspapers. I am not sure how true that is since he had already had security clearance (which was later revoked) to conduct his duties on Base since he was assigned to the OAS desk. It looks like a situation where he did not want to be court-martialed for giving up classified information. This last sentence is pure speculation...
You also wrote:
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Of course he could produce the source... and get court-martialed at the same time if those sources were captured during the course of his eaves dropping on the French. Dinkin later said his information came from the "Stars and Stripes" publication via subliminal messages.
In short, you're suggesting he lied about what his true source of the information was.

Either he is trustworthy or he is not.

You are picking out the parts you like (the supposed prediction) and discounting the stuff you don't that reveals him as a nutcase (the subliminal messages part).

You're assuming what you need to prove.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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Old 17th July 2018, 10:31 AM   #1392
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Everybody on this thread has made a "typo", I said I made a "typo"... what more do you want?
Correction, you offered two different, contrary explanations to my points and my question here:

Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Can you at least get the story you're telling straight?

In the first quote, he is confined prior to the assassination and remains confined until after the assassination. You contradict that in the second quote, saying he was only committed to the pyschiatric ward after the assassination.

Well, which is it?

Cite the sources for your contrary arguments above.

Hank

FIRST RESPONSE, you quoted my entire post and apologized for the error and said you left out a word:
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Can you at least get the story you're telling straight?

In the first quote, he is confined prior to the assassination and remains confined until after the assassination. You contradict that in the second quote, saying he was only committed to the pyschiatric ward after the assassination.

Well, which is it?

Cite the sources for your contrary arguments above.
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
You are correct, I typed too fast and omitted the word "until"; I meant to say "until after". The phrase certainly could have been written slower and better. The second being "Dinkin was committed to the psychiatric ward and held "until after" the assassination. He was then transferred to Walter Reed Hospital and later discharged.

SECOND RESPONSE, you quoted only my last sentence and said your contrary explanations came from a source cited by another poster:
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Cite the sources for your contrary arguments above.
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
The link that Axxman provided is one source for my contrary arguments.
Can you explain which of those is accurate? Either there were no contrary explanations and you simply mis-spoke, or there were contrary explanations from you and you didn't mis-speak, but you got your contrary explanations from Axxman's cited materials.

Which is it?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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Old 17th July 2018, 10:37 AM   #1393
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
What you posted were not answers; you just re-posted a claim.

My question was straight forward... "Who said anybody sent any message to Europe? I am sure you have sources for this fact... "

Who said anybody sent any message to Europe? Can you answer this or do you even care where Major Major got his information?
Asked and answered.

If messages weren't sent to Europe about the impending assassination, there is nothing for Dinkins to intercept.

Dinkins either got the supposed claim about the impending assassination through subliminal messages in Stars and Stripes, or he learned of the impending assassination through intercepted messages in Europe as part of his normal duties in the Army.

Choose one. Cite for it. Explain it. Make a reasoned argument.

You are simply assuming everything you need to prove.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

Last edited by HSienzant; 17th July 2018 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:40 AM   #1394
No Other
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Really? Curiously, he's not mentioned in any of the books I have on the assassination, and I have over 500.
Hank
500 books? That is impressive... Here is where you can find references to Dinkin and since you know the WC inside and out; some of this may be repetitive...


Books:

Bloody Treason by Noel Twyman

Foreknowledge in England by Mark Bridger


Papers, Documents, Articles:

CD1107 FBI Report dated 5-15-1964

CD943 CIA memo from Richard Helms

CD788 FBI memo

Russ Holmes work file #104-10434-10019

Russ Holmes work file #104-10400-10042

Russ Holmes work file #104-10438-10122

Russ Holmes work file #104-10438-10153


Hank, there are still more, do you wish for me to post them? I will treat the rest of your post as hyperbole.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:51 AM   #1395
No Other
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Asked and answered.

If messages weren't sent to Europe about the impending assassination, there is nothing for Dinkins to intercept. Hank
Your deductive reasoning is very interesting. You got a guy in Europe responsible for monitoring OAS telegraphs and you are claiming "if messages weren't sent to Europe about the impending assassination, there is nothing for Dinkins to intercept". I guess Europe had no means of transmitting communication in 1963. Europe had no capability of generating any form of dialogue without going through the USA? All roads start in the USA and not other places on this Earth?

Your arguments towards me hold no merit; you just wish to argue for arguments sake.

Why don't press your cronies on minor issues... like facts? I find it funny when you and Axxman declare that this is new... It shows that you can cut and paste effectively but cognitive reasoning plays no part in your posting. I could understand if you said something along this line of... "Dinkins, never heard of him, let me see if there is some merit." But Hank, you didn't say that... you used the incredulous and expert fallacies to prop up your lack of knowledge. You have zero desire to understand or expand your database but would rather attacks some typos. You were once entertaining but this act is old and juvenile.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:15 AM   #1396
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Your deductive reasoning is very interesting. You got a guy in Europe responsible for monitoring OAS telegraphs
Telegraphs? They didn't have phones or radios or modems in Europe?

Didn't we dispel the problems with your OAS claims already? We did.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
...and you are claiming "if messages weren't sent to Europe about the impending assassination, there is nothing for Dinkins to intercept". I guess Europe had no means of transmitting communication in 1963. Europe had no capability of generating any form of dialogue without going through the USA? All roads start in the USA and not other places on this Earth?
Not my point and you know it. This was supposedly a US Military plot according to Dinkins. Dinkins wasn't intercepting US Military communications, that wasn't his job. What possible intercepts could he have made that spelled out the assassination if his job involved OAS telegraphy?

Show us the evidence.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Your arguments towards me hold no merit; you just wish to argue for arguments sake.
I've made no arguments directed at you. I have pointed out conflicts in your claims and asked you to address those and other points. You have failed to do so. For example, I raised the point about RFK supposedly knowing about the assassination plot in October (according to the story Dinkin tells) and yet he did nothing about it. I can think of two possibilities, neither of which makes sense to me:
  • RFK didn't care if his brother was assassinated
  • There was no letter to RFK from Dinkins

Can you add a reasonable third possibility to the above? Perhaps you would care to actually address some of the issues raised by this Dinkins story? The ones I pointed out here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1370


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Why don't press your cronies on minor issues... like facts?
What facts do you think they got wrong, and why do you think it's my job to point them out?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I find it funny when you and Axxman declare that this is new...
I didn't claim it was new. I pointed out it was wasn't mentioned in any of the 500 conspiracy books I own. Either those conspiracy authors didn't find it worthy of note or didn't know about it, or were part of the coverup.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
It shows that you can cut and paste effectively but cognitive reasoning plays no part in your posting.
Yet I keep pointing out problems with your arguments - arguments not cut and pasted from anywhere. Even the original poster noted and you accepted that neither John McAdams nor David Von Pein mentioned Dinkin (while you begged the question about what he knew and when):
Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
Yet he isn't mentioned on McAdams or David von Pein.
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
... it is a shame that McAdams or von Pein do not mention him as he is a real-life individual who made an attempt to warn various officials about an impending assassination.
So where exactly am I cuttting and pasting from? The CIA secret handbook on how to attack JFK Conspiracy Theorists?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I could understand if you said something along this line of... "Dinkins, never heard of him, let me see if there is some merit." But Hank, you didn't say that...
Didn't know I needed to. I researched it, finding numerous conspiracy site mentions of him. I read them. I found no evidence cited, just assumptions. The same assumptions you make.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
you used the incredulous and expert fallacies to prop up your lack of knowledge.
Point them out. Quote me. Cite the fallacies. Show how what I said fits. I merely pointed out your assumptions and asked for your evidence. BE SPECIFIC.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
You have zero desire to understand or expand your database but would rather attacks some typos.
False. I pointed out an apparent contradiction in your posts. You then explained the apparent contradiction in two apparently contradictory ways. I asked you to explain it. Your response is still pending. (And by the way, you're attacking me personally above with your claim 'You have zero desire to understand...').


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
You were once entertaining but this act is old and juvenile.
Asking for evidence is what I do.
Pointing out flaws in CT 'logic' is what I do.
Citing the evidence is what I do.

You should get used to this 'old' and 'juvenile' 'act'.

It isn't going away.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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Old 17th July 2018, 11:25 AM   #1397
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
500 books? That is impressive... Here is where you can find references to Dinkin and since you know the WC inside and out; some of this may be repetitive...

Books:

Bloody Treason by Noel Twyman

Foreknowledge in England by Mark Bridger
I have neither of those books, I don't think. I might have Twyman's but don't recall the mention of Dinkin. His book was published 21 years ago. So if he's mentioned in there, I forgot. None of the primary published authors mentioned Dinkins - Weisberg, Lane, Meagher, Thompson, Lifton, etc.

Heck, even the original cited conspiracy author (Jerry Kroth) says this is news to him:
"Frankly, as an academic who wrote two books on JFK, I never heard of him. "
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49828.htm
("Jerry Kroth, Ph.D. is an Associate Professor Emeritus from Santa Clara University in California. This is an excerpt from his forthcoming book, Coup d’etat: the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Dr. Kroth may be contacted through his website collectivepsych.com").

What's the real issue here?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Papers, Documents, Articles:

CD1107 FBI Report dated 5-15-1964

CD943 CIA memo from Richard Helms

CD788 FBI memo

Russ Holmes work file #104-10434-10019

Russ Holmes work file #104-10400-10042

Russ Holmes work file #104-10438-10122

Russ Holmes work file #104-10438-10153
None of that is a book. None of that is in the published Warren Commission volumes.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Hank, there are still more, do you wish for me to post them?
To what end?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I will treat the rest of your post as hyperbole.
Translation: I found a reason to question one of your arguments, so I will use that an excuse to simply ignore them all.

Treat them as you wish. Calling them hyperbole is not a response to any of the points I made. Nor is it an excuse to avoid responding to them.

Hank
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Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Last edited by HSienzant; 17th July 2018 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:32 AM   #1398
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
You forgot to mention that Dinkin was committed to the psychiatric ward AFTER the assassination. I am not saying the guy is sane or insane but context is useful.
You mean like mentioning that he went AWOL ahead of his scheduled psychiatric examination? What does that imply?

Quote:
Of course he could produce the source... and get court-martialed at the same time if those sources were captured during the course of his eaves dropping on the French.
You can't courts-martial a material witness in the murder of the President of the United States of America. He would have been deposed in secret.

And yes, it's Courts Martial, not Court Martial.

https://www.military.com/benefits/mi...explained.html

Quote:
Dinkin later said his information came from the "Stars and Stripes" publication via subliminal messages.
Which is why he was a candidate for the loony bin.


Quote:
1. Why Florida ( you are creating your own straw man)?
You're the JFK-Ctist, bone up on your own literature.

Quote:
Dinkin's responsibility was monitoring telegraphic communication pertaining to the OAS in Europe. It would be cumbersome to monitor telegraphic communications in Europe outside of Europe in 1963.
Cumbersome? You make it sound like he was the only one sitting at his desk with headphones on transcribing messages on his teletype. He worked within a Company-sized element which operated under the NSA, which was even larger. Everything he saw/translated went up the chain of command, and nobody has ever come forward to corroborate anything he claimed.

Quote:
The CIA memo clearly states that the Stringer for Time-Life was writing a story on November 26, 1963 about Dinkin's visit to the United Nations (11-6/7-1963)where he said "'they' were plotting against President Kennedy and that 'something' would happen in Texas.'
No, the CIA memo DOES NOT SAY THAT.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc....eId=2&tab=page

It says that in Geneva Dinkins only said that he was being pursecuted, and wished to alert the world to a U.S. Government "Propoganda Campaign".

Nothing about the President, nothing about Texas.

Those claims came on 11/26, AFTER the assassination.


Quote:
You are 100% correct he did not say that President Kennedy's life was threatened. It is also perfectly understandable that Officials would not take any action what-so-ever when a Cryptographer monitoring the secret service of France proclaims that there is a plot against President Kennedy on his upcoming visit to Texas.
And yet he didn't make any advanced claims of a plot in Texas. So how does one take action about a claim that was not made?

Quote:
What is your "BS Detector" detecting with Eugene Dinkin?
He's just another nut-job who told a ghost story that has been picked up by a con-artists CT author for yet another worthless book in 2018/19.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:04 PM   #1399
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Your deductive reasoning is very interesting. You got a guy in Europe responsible for monitoring OAS telegraphs and you are claiming "if messages weren't sent to Europe about the impending assassination, there is nothing for Dinkins to intercept". I guess Europe had no means of transmitting communication in 1963. Europe had no capability of generating any form of dialogue without going through the USA? All roads start in the USA and not other places on this Earth?
You should explain the logic of discussing a capital crime in electronic communication that can be intercepted by countries whom you might not want reading it. Electronic communications that can be printed and filed away by persons unknown to be used against you at a later date.

Not saying Oswald was part of conspiracy, but the guy didn't call the Soviet Embassy or the Cuban Embassy; he got on a bus, and went to Mexico City. He did make short calls while he was there, but everything else was handled one-on-one. When he started ranting about killing JFK at the Cuban Embassy they hustled him out because they feared the CIA had the place bugged.

Assassination is not an open subject to the people who conduct such business. Phone calls are not made. Telegraphs are not sent. Meetings are not held "at the office". The operation is always small.


Quote:
Why don't press your cronies on minor issues... like facts? I find it funny when you and Axxman declare that this is new..
I'm sorry, all of the articles referenced are dated 2018. All the buzz came AFTER the 2017 document release.

https://www.pressenza.com/2018/07/ne...sination-plan/

I have gone back and read the older stuff on Dinkins and all I see is the CT community embracing the words of a man who had a mental breakdown.

Dinkins tried to sue the DoD and CIA for slander because they wrote him off as a kook...which he clearly was...

He's new to me, and he's just another CT whack-job IMO.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:52 PM   #1400
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The telegraph was an adjunct to the carrier pigeons that flew the coup
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