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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , populism , presidential candidates , socialism

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Old 18th September 2019, 02:58 PM   #1
Jerrymander
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Trump may be concerned about running at "socialism"

*against

Quote:
As he campaigns for re-election, Donald Trump and his team have made trashing the “socialists or communists” in the 2020 Democratic presidential field a cornerstone of their messaging. In private, however, the president often strikes a different, more nuanced tone—one driven by a concern that socialism (at least as defined by the Democrats) may actually sell politically.

This year, Trump has repeatedly told friends and donors that running against “socialism” in a general election may not be “so easy” because of its populist draw, according to four Republicans and sources close to Trump who’ve heard him say this over the past several months.

According to a person who was in the room, Trump told donors at a recent private event that though “a lot of people think it’ll be easy to beat [in 2020],” the “truth is, it might not be so easy.” The president, according to the source, said that “you can have someone who loves Trump, but many people love free stuff, too.” He added that if candidates tell Americans, especially young voters—that they’re going to cancel their debt, “that’s a tough one” to run against.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-...o-easy-to-beat

Last edited by Jerrymander; 18th September 2019 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:30 PM   #2
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Tax cuts for the wealthy, plus 'free stuff' for the poor. What could possibly go wrong?
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:38 PM   #3
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Seems like anti-socialism messaging was only really effective back when everyone really believed they were on their way to becoming millionaires. I think most of the middle and low income GOP finally gave up on that delusion by 2008.

Trump campaigned on version of restoring dignity to being white and just middle or lower class "normal". He was a billionaire, but he was really into cheeseburgers, porn, and wrestling. He talked about bringing back the working class jobs, and he made sure to say he "didn't believe in" entitlement reform.
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Old 18th September 2019, 06:41 PM   #4
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The UAW strikers losing their health insurance is certainly a powerful current example of why Medicare For All isn't a bad idea.
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Old 18th September 2019, 07:35 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The UAW strikers losing their health insurance is certainly a powerful current example of why Medicare For All isn't a bad idea.
And then there is Trump letting the coal companies off the hook, leaving the taxpayers holding the bag if the black lung sufferers are going to be provided medical care and disability at all.

Come on Democrats, make a campaign commercial showing this.

Coal Miners To Demand Congress Restore Full Black Lung Benefits Tax
Quote:
Dozens of coal miners are expected on Capitol Hill on Tuesday, where they'll press federal regulators and members of Congress to address the epidemic of deadly progressive massive fibrosis, the advanced stage of black lung disease.

They'll ask lawmakers to fully restore a coal excise tax that pays for medical care and some living expenses for miners diagnosed with black lung, a crippling disease caused by the inhalation of coal and silica dust. The tax was cut more than 50% at the end of last year. It supports the federal Black Lung Disability Trust Fund, which is more than $4 billion in debt.

The presence of the miners in Washington, some of whom will be dragging oxygen tanks and struggling to talk and breathe, could put more pressure on the Mine Safety and Health Administration, which has resisted direct and quick responses to the epidemic and silica dust exposure.
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Old 18th September 2019, 07:55 PM   #6
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Since when is socialism “free stuff”?
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Old 18th September 2019, 08:16 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Since when is socialism “free stuff”?
Since the GOP misrepresents it.
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:24 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Since the GOP misrepresents it.
I think they usually only call it that in private now.

I suspect internal focus groups show that people actually really do really like "free stuff."
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Old 18th September 2019, 10:10 PM   #9
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They don't need focus groups for that. They are already well aware how much billionaires love free stuff, which is why health care shouldn't be available to ordinary people.
And it's not a new thing.
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Last edited by dann; 18th September 2019 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
...the president often strikes a different, more nuanced tone...
Did this article change countries mid-story without telling us?
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:46 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
One more indication that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Social programs aren't about "free stuff".
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Old 19th September 2019, 05:16 AM   #12
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Quote:
Dozens of coal miners are expected on Capitol Hill on Tuesday, where they'll press federal regulators and members of Congress to address the epidemic of deadly progressive massive fibrosis, the advanced stage of black lung disease.
Wonder how many of them voted for Trump? It's sad. When will people wake up?
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Old 19th September 2019, 05:40 AM   #13
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This video clip about "Socilism" from the documentary "Right America, Feeling Wronged" never gets old.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 19th September 2019, 06:18 AM   #14
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I think this is just this years 'fixed elections'. He's setting up his excuse for losing and in the off chance he wins it will be just that much more amazing.
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Old 20th September 2019, 02:04 PM   #15
dann
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
This video clip about "Socilism" from the documentary "Right America, Feeling Wronged" never gets old.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Amazing! Ignorance is so much easier when you've got a smartphone.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th September 2019, 02:10 PM   #16
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The Trump quote sounds like what a politician says at a fund raiser: This will be a tough fight, we are going to need all the help you can give. Now write some checks!
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Old 20th September 2019, 02:16 PM   #17
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Problem is people have different ideas when the word "Socialism" is used.
The word had suffered bad damage from countires like the Soviet Union and Mao's CHina calling themselves "Socialist".
Maybe some rebranding should be done.....
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Old 20th September 2019, 02:31 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Seems like anti-socialism messaging was only really effective back when everyone really believed they were on their way to becoming millionaires. I think most of the middle and low income GOP finally gave up on that delusion by 2008.
My favorite stat from ~2000. Nineteen percent of Americans believed they were in the top 1%, and another 20% believed they'd be in the top 1% some day.
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Old 20th September 2019, 03:28 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is people have different ideas when the word "Socialism" is used.
The word had suffered bad damage from countires like the Soviet Union and Mao's CHina calling themselves "Socialist".
Maybe some rebranding should be done.....
Perhaps they should re-brand themselves as "Neo-Socialist".
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Old 20th September 2019, 04:01 PM   #20
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This is relevant to the current side conversation:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...joe-biden-poll
Quote:
Warren and Sanders backers have some clear ideological similarities in the post-debate poll — 89% of Sanders backers have a favorable view of democratic socialism (Sanders identifies as a democratic socialist), as do 80% of Warren backers. Biden voters were much more split: 35% had a favorable view, 30% unfavorable, and 34% were unsure. A quarter of Sanders supporters said they considered themselves to be democratic socialists, compared to just 12% of Warren supporters.
I'd guess most of us US left wingers are "pro-democratic-socialism" to whatever extent it's an accurate term to describe how we think the politics of Scandinavia are admirable and a short term ideal to strive towards, but we think focusing on the US legacy of the New Deal and how arguably "socialist" programs (like social security, national forests, etc) can exist within a larger capitalist economy is ultimately more useful framework to explain the policies we advocate.
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Old 21st September 2019, 01:54 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is people have different ideas when the word "Socialism" is used.
The word had suffered bad damage from countires like the Soviet Union and Mao's CHina calling themselves "Socialist".
Maybe some rebranding should be done.....

And don't forget the false Marx quotations about socialism and violence that some people are so fond of ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st September 2019, 11:12 PM   #22
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Interesting how whenever socialism is brought up, it's always China this and the USSR that.

And no one ever mentions Burkina Faso and Thomas Sankara.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 01:48 AM   #23
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I never heard of him till now. Here's another one: Amílcar CabralWP.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd September 2019, 07:50 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is people have different ideas when the word "Socialism" is used.
The word had suffered bad damage from countires like the Soviet Union and Mao's CHina calling themselves "Socialist".
Maybe some rebranding should be done.....
And "National Socialism". (Godwin acknowledged.)
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Old 22nd September 2019, 06:19 PM   #25
portlandatheist
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is people have different ideas when the word "Socialism" is used.
The word had suffered bad damage from countires like the Soviet Union and Mao's CHina calling themselves "Socialist".
Maybe some rebranding should be done.....
Not only different ideas, but the word is used intentionally disingenuously in my opinion, by both the right and the left. Social spending and other social programs and safety nets are not socialism, especially if their funding comes from the taxation of a thriving private sector capitalist economy. When I think of socialism, I think of it as the abolition of the private sector economy completely. I think just about everybody(liberal or conservative) recognizes that we need a mixed economy with both private and public sectors and it is a very radical notion to believe that we should have a purely private sector or purely public sector economy. We may disagree on the details and extent of those sectors but nearly everyone is on the same page in terms of having a mixed economy. Even self described "socialists" like Bernie believe in having a mixed economy.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 11:20 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
This is relevant to the current side conversation:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...joe-biden-poll


I'd guess most of us US left wingers are "pro-democratic-socialism" to whatever extent it's an accurate term to describe how we think the politics of Scandinavia are admirable and a short term ideal to strive towards, but we think focusing on the US legacy of the New Deal and how arguably "socialist" programs (like social security, national forests, etc) can exist within a larger capitalist economy is ultimately more useful framework to explain the policies we advocate.
Man, I remember the End Of History days, when we thought politics would evolve into Market Socialism versus Welfare Capitalism.

Fukuyama completely ignored history. When the unifying enemy is gone (Carthage, USSR, whatever), a republic turns on itself with parties being nothing more than 'brands' - like soccer teams - that the public supports or reviles with zero attention to policies. This is how the Republicans went from 'rejecting free trade is treason' to 'free trade is treason' in less than a year, or 'states rights are sacred' to 'California emissions laws must be overruled by Washington' simultaneously. There's no *actual* policy there. Medicare is socialism. Trump vowed to protect it in his campaign.

Yuval Levin [put it this way]:
Quote:
Partisanship has displaced ambition to legislate. Senators and representatives now “see themselves as players in a larger political ecosystem the point of which is not legislating or governing but rather engaging in a kind of performative outrage for a partisan audience.”
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