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Old 17th September 2019, 08:43 AM   #281
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Surely the same as the parents are being prosecuted for, the parent was only acting as a proxy for the 18 year old adult?
A "proxy?" No, the parents were the primary actors, contracting with the "advisor" and paying large -- sometimes huge -- amounts of money to him and the colleges. The kids did what they were told, sometimes unknowingly, sometimes believing it was no big deal. And the counseling process began years before they turned 18. The kids would have been very unlikely to do this on their own.
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Old 17th September 2019, 09:14 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So Felicity Huffman gets sentenced to 14 days in federal prison and other penalties for helping her daughter cheat the SATs.
Well, that'll show her.
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Old 17th September 2019, 09:22 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But by all accounts the daughter wasn't knowingly in on it. She just did what her mother and her tutor told her to do. Should her life be wrecked?
No, but on the other hand if the penalty for cheating for your child is impacting your child severely, people might think twice.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Welcome to the era of "helicopter parenting", where children are not allowed to learn self-sufficiency.
I remember when I was a kid, playing outside without supervision. When you fell on your face because of your own stupidity or incompetence, you had to crawl back home to get help.

Builds character.
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Old 17th September 2019, 09:26 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A "proxy?" No, the parents were the primary actors, contracting with the "advisor" and paying large -- sometimes huge -- amounts of money to him and the colleges. The kids did what they were told, sometimes unknowingly, sometimes believing it was no big deal. And the counseling process began years before they turned 18. The kids would have been very unlikely to do this on their own.
Who signed the college applications? I'm genuinely interested in working out how this isn't the adults' fault.
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Old 17th September 2019, 09:28 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then why arent the "children" being prosecuted as well?
Not sure about this case, but it may be hard to prove to sufficient evidence that they were directly involved. The parents are easier. They moved money, they were ratted out by the ringleader.

I can't recall the specifics, but some of the cases made it seem like the kids were in on it. Plausible deniability is going to rely on how exactly these fraudulent applications were made. If there is evidence of their knowing participation of the fraud, then, by all means, they should be charged with a crime.

In some of these cases, there may be no physical evidence and the only witnesses, the parents, are unlikely to give up their children.


I would argue that they are being punished, even without a criminal conviction. They are going to be known as the kids that had parents try to cheat them into college. The stink will follow them for a long time.
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Old 17th September 2019, 09:39 AM   #286
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Simple answer - Parent v Child prosecution.

The children, even if over the age of 18, are not in evidence as (AFAIK) the criminal actor(s) in the fraudulent actions of the parents.

The kids benefited, but simply complied with the directives from their parents as to their part in whatever particular type of scam that the parents had entered into with the facilitator on the university end.
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Old 17th September 2019, 09:45 AM   #287
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It would be funny if the entitled riches got sued by their entitled brats over this. Like Dr Frankenstein being killed by the monster he created!
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Old 17th September 2019, 09:52 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
....
I would argue that they are being punished, even without a criminal conviction. They are going to be known as the kids that had parents try to cheat them into college. The stink will follow them for a long time.
In her letter to the judge, Huffman said the most painful part was when her daughter, after learning what happened, tearfully asked her mom "Why didn't you believe in me?" I suspect that'll hurt more than the 14 days.
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Old 17th September 2019, 10:40 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Who signed the college applications? I'm genuinely interested in working out how this isn't the adults' fault.
The prosecutors likely are pursuing the theory that the daughter signed the paperwork with no idea at all that her parents were making backroom deals. Unless they can show the kid's knowledge (there would not likely be a receipt for the payoffs that the kid was cut in on), just go for the bloody hands.
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Old 17th September 2019, 10:43 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The prosecutors likely are pursuing the theory that the daughter signed the paperwork with no idea at all that her parents were making backroom deals. Unless they can show the kid's knowledge (there would not likely be a receipt for the payoffs that the kid was cut in on), just go for the bloody hands.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:13 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In her letter to the judge, Huffman said the most painful part was when her daughter, after learning what happened, tearfully asked her mom "Why didn't you believe in me?" I suspect that'll hurt more than the 14 days.
I don't buy her naivety for a second. Crocodile tears to swing for a light sentence. Might not be enough evidence to convict, but as far as I'm concerned that whole family is garbage.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:23 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't buy her naivety for a second. Crocodile tears to swing for a light sentence. Might not be enough evidence to convict, but as far as I'm concerned that whole family is garbage.
That's pretty harsh. Considering the infinite ways that rich parents give advantages to their children, and even considering what some of the other parents charged in this scam did, Huffman's transgressions are trivial. I still have trouble understanding how this is a federal felony.

Jared went to Harvard because Daddy gave millions of dollars. I think that's much worse. But it's not a crime.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...mp-son-in-law/
https://www.amazon.com/Price-Admissi...of%20admission
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:27 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, that'll show her.
A federal felony conviction and any prison time at all is way more than a wrist slap. Drunk drivers who kill people get probation.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That's pretty harsh. Considering the infinite ways that rich parents give advantages to their children, and even considering what some of the other parents charged in this scam did, Huffman's transgressions are trivial. I still have trouble understanding how this is a federal felony.

Jared went to Harvard because Daddy gave millions of dollars. I think that's much worse. But it's not a crime.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...mp-son-in-law/
https://www.amazon.com/Price-Admissi...of%20admission
Giving money so your lackwit children can attend Harvard at least puts money into the hands of Harvard. Maybe the school can do some good with it, like funding a scholarship for someone more deserving or otherwise investing in the school. At the very least, the admission spot belongs to Harvard, so it's the school's call whether they want to sell it off to some rich idiot.

Paying off some fraudster to put together a fraudulent SAT just enriches the fraudster. There is no secondary benefit to the greater community. Giving millions of dollars to the school is much preferable to giving some amoral chump 20k to grease the wheels.

I think the charge here was some form of mail fraud, since it involved sending fraudulent documents for the purpose of attaining something of value.

I have very low opinion of these rich criminals. Life asks very little of them, and yet they still can't manage to keep on the right side of the law.
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Old 17th September 2019, 03:11 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
US News ranks USC as No. 22 among national universities, tied with Berkeley and ahead of Georgetown, Michigan, UVa and NYU. It accepts 13% of applicants. UCLA is No. 20. If you want to stay on the West Coast it would be a top choice -- if you could get in.
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...l-universities
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...alifornia-1328
That the University of Spoiled Children could ever compare to Cal would kill the elderly Bear in my family. I wonder if I'm still in their will . . . .
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Old 20th September 2019, 12:12 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Surely the same as the parents are being prosecuted for, the parent was only acting as a proxy for the 18 year old adult?
I am assuming you mean some sort of conspiracy charge thinking that the daughter was in on the planning and execution of the crime.

Hmmm...

Tough one to prove given that the mother sent the money from the mother's bank account. Also - the information is that the mother did all the talking and arranging without the knowledge of the husband or daughter.
Furthermore, I would imagine that the mother would claim that the "do over" test was not attended by the daughter because the daughter was unaware of the second test (which is possible).
If the daughter kept her mouth shut - as the family's high price lawyer would have undoubtedly told her to do - there would have been no evidence that the daughter was ever involved in any of it.
Maybe she actually was in the dark?
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:21 AM   #297
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I've helped a few kids (over 18 and I know how that winds an 18 year old) with university applications and all of them require the 18 plus year old to sign them and the application will have a declaration that everything they've submitted is accurate and truthful. That's why I surprised none of the kids are in direct trouble as if they were UK kids they would have signed their contract and therefore be held liable for what they signed.
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:31 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've helped a few kids (over 18 and I know how that winds an 18 year old) with university applications and all of them require the 18 plus year old to sign them and the application will have a declaration that everything they've submitted is accurate and truthful. That's why I surprised none of the kids are in direct trouble as if they were UK kids they would have signed their contract and therefore be held liable for what they signed.
I don't recall the exact details, but I thought some of these cases involved falsifications that the student absolutely would have been complicit. Things like lying about sports involvement in college application essays. Getting a fake disability statement from a doc and travelling to some bizarre private test proctor is something hard to miss.

I'm guessing that, in many of these cases, the parents were willing to take a guilty plea, and sparing the kid a charge may have been big part of that negotiation.
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Old 20th September 2019, 07:08 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't recall the exact details, but I thought some of these cases involved falsifications that the student absolutely would have been complicit. Things like lying about sports involvement in college application essays. Getting a fake disability statement from a doc and travelling to some bizarre private test proctor is something hard to miss.

I'm guessing that, in many of these cases, the parents were willing to take a guilty plea, and sparing the kid a charge may have been big part of that negotiation.
Not having a dig at you but your acceptance that charging is a negotiation between the suspects and the prosecution is very worrying to me. It seems to now be endemic in the USA justice systems that you can negotiate charges. Is this just a perception or is it really that common?
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Old 20th September 2019, 07:11 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not having a dig at you but your acceptance that charging is a negotiation between the suspects and the prosecution is very worrying to me. It seems to now be endemic in the USA justice systems that you can negotiate charges. Is this just a perception or is it really that common?
Plea bargaining is our system. Trials by jury are a quaint anomaly. 90+% of cases end in plea bargain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...levant/534171/

Bartering and gamesmanship are baked into the system. Prosecutors stack charges to try to scare defendants, defense lawyers wheel and deal, assessing the strength of the case and making counter offers. It's an absolute disgrace, but it's the only system that can meet our insane incarceration rates. The entire system would grind to halt should all these people demand trial by jury. There's simply no capacity for it.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:16 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've helped a few kids (over 18 and I know how that winds an 18 year old) with university applications and all of them require the 18 plus year old to sign them and the application will have a declaration that everything they've submitted is accurate and truthful. That's why I surprised none of the kids are in direct trouble as if they were UK kids they would have signed their contract and therefore be held liable for what they signed.

And what are the consequences if a UK kid lies on his application? Probably rejection, if discovered before admission; maybe expulsion, if discovered afterward. But criminal prosecution? Prison time? Really?
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:39 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And what are the consequences if a UK kid lies on his application? Probably rejection, if discovered before admission; maybe expulsion, if discovered afterward. But criminal prosecution? Prison time? Really?
If they paid cash money to produce falsified test results, would that not be fraud in the UK.

These people aren't being charged for lying. They are being charged for paying money to produce fraudulent documents or bribe officials in order to obtain something of value.
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