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Old 4th October 2015, 03:32 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
In recent news from Kunduz
The RoE finally let the US strike the real enemy, I suppose.
Video of the aftermath shows machine guns in the hospital windows. It was being used as a fighting position by the Taliban, making it a legitimate target. MSF is lying about the entire incident.
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Old 4th October 2015, 03:55 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Video of the aftermath shows machine guns in the hospital windows. It was being used as a fighting position by the Taliban, making it a legitimate target. MSF is lying about the entire incident.
Show us.
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Old 4th October 2015, 04:24 PM   #83
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Quote:
This story deletes a reference to weaponry in the hospital windows as seen in AP video after further review of the images cast doubt on whether they were rifles and a machine gun or simply charred debris from the bombing.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/8508b...fter-airstrike

It seems the internet has been going off of this AP article. Waiting for an investigation to be completed as to the reason seems to be wise.
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Old 4th October 2015, 04:52 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/8508b...fter-airstrike

It seems the internet has been going off of this AP article. Waiting for an investigation to be completed as to the reason seems to be wise.

I think that's the wise thing to do.
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Old 4th October 2015, 05:23 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Show us.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Look at the windows nearest the corner of the building at the 16-25 second mark.
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Old 4th October 2015, 05:30 PM   #86
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Looks like charred debris from the window frame, just like the AP had to admit. This is what you called MSF liars over? I could go on but, this is nonsense.
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Old 4th October 2015, 05:39 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Look at the windows nearest the corner of the building at the 16-25 second mark.

You're getting desperate.
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Old 4th October 2015, 06:00 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Look at the windows nearest the corner of the building at the 16-25 second mark.
That is the "evidence" you're using?

Nice work. Thankfully, people far more sensible than me have already pointed out your attempt to portray the attack as justified is utter baloney.
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Old 4th October 2015, 06:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That is the "evidence" you're using?

Nice work. Thankfully, people far more sensible than me have already pointed out your attempt to portray the attack as justified is utter baloney.
The worst part of it all is the amount of BS that has flown since the attack - so much BS that it's wearisome to try to figure out what is really know - so wearisome that it make one want to give up trying to determine the truth.

And I guess that's the function of BS - to make the issue so opaque that one will accept anything plausible just to get an answer and move on.

Man...that sucks. BS is so dangerous.
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Old 4th October 2015, 06:16 PM   #90
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You'd do yourself a favor by not paying attention to the sensationalist news, blogs and commenters out there, haven't you noticed that their mental health isn't all there? Since there has been nothing from the government or authoritative sources on this, I think you only have yourself to blame for the effect of the "BS"
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Old 4th October 2015, 06:28 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
You'd do yourself a favor by not paying attention to the sensationalist news, blogs and commenters out there, haven't you noticed that their mental health isn't all there? Since there has been nothing from the government or authoritative sources on this, I think you only have yourself to blame for the effect of the "BS"
Joey,

You are RIGHT....and you are WRONG.

Generally, it's the initial narrative that most people remember...not the hard-won truth. (Most people just don't have the time and energy to dig for the truth - they got Families, and Jobs and ****)

Don't believe me? Then go ask some people 60-and-over why Watergate was such a bad thing. Hell...they won't even know what Watergate was really about.

Sorry Joey, I disagree to an extent...but I really appreciate your posts. I'll certainly apply your recommendation to myself.

Thanks.

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Old 4th October 2015, 06:39 PM   #92
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The visual evidence shows that no bombs struck the hospital. Even a single bomb hit would have flattened much of it.

The visual evidence also shows that there was a fire inside the hospital. I would be curious to know how the fire was started.
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Old 4th October 2015, 09:03 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
The visual evidence shows that no bombs struck the hospital. Even a single bomb hit would have flattened much of it.

The visual evidence also shows that there was a fire inside the hospital. I would be curious to know how the fire was started.
Modern militaries have many kinds of ordinance.
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Old 4th October 2015, 09:16 PM   #94
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Shells would be a more accurate term, since it wasn't a "bombing" it was being hit by an AC-130 which fires 105mm and 40 mm shells and it's entirely possible that it was all or mostly 40mm which would explain the footage we've seen and the testimony from the MSF people.

Anyways, it won't be that many days before a statement comes out.
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Old 7th October 2015, 03:22 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Video of the aftermath shows machine guns in the hospital windows. It was being used as a fighting position by the Taliban, making it a legitimate target. MSF is lying about the entire incident.
Compare that against the President of the United States:

Quote:
Barack Obama has apologised to the medical aid charity Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) for what the White House described as a “terrible, tragic accident”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6685341.html
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Old 7th October 2015, 08:32 PM   #96
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Having been in that business about a decade ago, I am curious how that particular building got onto the target list.

I'll give any further comment another 48 hours before assessing what can be known beyond "someone screwed up, and some people got blown up for all of the wrong reasons."
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Old 11th October 2015, 09:42 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Modern militaries have many kinds of ordinance.
The Pentagon more than most. Who can keep track what is permitted while rolling over a hot zone?

Go back to rule 303. Simples
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Old 5th November 2015, 12:31 PM   #98
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Lovely to see A'stan so settled these days, as the exodus of people continues.

Women are being embraced by the new Afghan society.

Meanwhile, the laughable government shows exactly how corrupt it is.
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Old 5th November 2015, 01:28 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
...

Never. This has a zero percent chance of happening.

...
You seem very confident of that. The Taliban did it before... what makes you think that they can't do it again.. once the American's have left ?
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Old 6th November 2015, 07:22 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
You seem very confident of that. The Taliban did it before... what makes you think that they can't do it again.. once the American's have left ?
No, they didn't do it before. They took over more than half the country, but they never took over the whole country. The Northern Alliance always held a significant amount of territory against the Taliban.

If we left now, they might indeed take over the majority of the country again, and that would be a bad thing, but they would be unlikely to take over all of the country.
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Old 6th November 2015, 08:35 AM   #101
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How very subtle!

CNN:
Quote:
Doctors Without Borders staff also reported seeing people shot from the air as they ran between buildings during the hourlong attack October 3 in Kunduz, it said.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/05/as...tal/index.html

MSF report they are referring to:
Quote:
others were shot by the circling AC-130 gunship while fleeing the burning building.
http://www.msf.org.uk/sites/uk/files...ic_release.pdf

Nice.
Of course you can't write that the good guys shot at people fleeing! Next you have to write about
Quote:
MSF received a question from a US Government official in Washington D.C., asking whether the hospital or any other of MSF’s locations had a large number of Taliban“holed up” and enquired about the safety of our staff. MSF replied that our staff were working at full capacity in Kunduz and that the hospital was full of patients including wounded Taliban combatants some of whom had been referred to the MSF medical post in Chardara. MSF also expressed that we were very clear with both sides to the conflict about the need to respect medical structures as a condition to our ability to continue working.
(Same report)

So before accidently shooting up the hospital they accidently asked if it would be ok to shoot up the hospital because of taliban, and after being told no, decided to accidently shoot up the hospital anyway, on accidental orders by the afghanis, and accidently shoot fleeing survivors.

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Old 6th November 2015, 08:42 AM   #102
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Interesting.. thanks for that Ziggurat.

I was under the impression that the Taliban WHERE on the ascendancy up until 2001. They DID take over the capital, and where pushing the Northern Alliance back. (albeit with help from the Pakistani army, and money from the Saudi's). They only went into decline when the Americans invaded ?

If they had that assistance again, AFTER the Americans leave, then can we really say that there is "zero chance" of them replicating their earlier success, but taking it further ?

(actually... with the Taliban hatred of Shia Islam, I wonder whether the Iranians would be tempted to intervene ? In the hypothetical scenario wherein the Taliban DO take over the entire territory, it would put them on the Iranian border... which I don't think the Iranians would be too chuffed about ? But that's another discussion. )

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Old 6th November 2015, 09:07 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
If they had that assistance again, AFTER the Americans leave, then can we really say that there is "zero chance" of them replicating their earlier success ?
Let's go back for a second. This is the statement that The Atheist made that Joey objected to:

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
How long before the Taliban re-take the entire country?
They cannot re-take the entire country, because they never had the entire country before. Now the distinction between, say, 75% of the country and 100% of the country may not be of much comfort to us, but it's still true that to get to 100% they would have to do what they have not done before. So even if they manage to conquer all of Afghanistan (and I doubt they can), it wouldn't be a re-taking of the entire country but the very first taking.

And given the trouble that the Taliban has caused within Pakistan since 2001, they are unlikely to get the level of support from Pakistan that they previously had, though I wouldn't be surprised if they still got some support.
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Old 6th November 2015, 11:35 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by magellan View Post
How very subtle!

CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/05/as...tal/index.html

MSF report they are referring to:

http://www.msf.org.uk/sites/uk/files...ic_release.pdf

Nice.
Of course you can't write that the good guys shot at people fleeing! Next you have to write about

(Same report)

So before accidently shooting up the hospital they accidently asked if it would be ok to shoot up the hospital because of taliban, and after being told no, decided to accidently shoot up the hospital anyway, on accidental orders by the afghanis, and accidently shoot fleeing survivors.
Thanks for posting that - from an information perspective. From a humanitarian perspective, I think it's the most revolting thing I've read in my life, so no thanks for that.

This is a war crime worse the My Lai.

Nobody will ever face charges over it.

Excuse me while I go and weep for humankind.

Sick, sick, sick *********** Americans.
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Old 6th November 2015, 08:44 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Thanks for posting that - from an information perspective. From a humanitarian perspective, I think it's the most revolting thing I've read in my life, so no thanks for that.

This is a war crime worse the My Lai.

Nobody will ever face charges over it.

Excuse me while I go and weep for humankind.

Sick, sick, sick *********** Americans.
And thank you for continuing to milk that hospital strike for all it's worth. And for continuing to milk My Lai.

To show my appreciation, here's some music to accompany your sobbing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTkHFQC3wow

Almost forgot. Here's you some more hospital strikes to cry over.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-country.html

And while you're at it, why not try to squeeze out a few tears for these victims as well?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_k...munist_regimes

Looks like it's definitely "your turn to cry".
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Old 7th November 2015, 07:36 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Thanks for posting that - from an information perspective. From a humanitarian perspective, I think it's the most revolting thing I've read in my life, so no thanks for that.

This is a war crime worse the My Lai.

Nobody will ever face charges over it.

Excuse me while I go and weep for humankind.

Sick, sick, sick *********** Americans.
When confused conspiracy theorists angry at America cry all most people feel is pity.
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Old 7th November 2015, 09:13 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
When confused conspiracy theorists angry at America cry all most people feel is pity.
Not me. I only pity those who have to live and deal with them on a daily basis. The blame games must be relentless.
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Old 7th November 2015, 11:00 AM   #108
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The flippant & sarcastic responses to comments on one of - if not the worst - war crimes in history is so heartening to me you wouldn't credit it.

Whatever your colour, creed or race, whether dove, hawk, aggressor or coward, no moral human being could do anything other than be revolted by what happened in Kunduz.

To see that there are people brave enough to sit down at a computer keyboard and scorn those revolted by it firms my faith in our species.

Thanks guys.
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Old 7th November 2015, 11:06 AM   #109
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A hospital was shot up accidentally, this is sad. You think it was on purpose, there is a cover-up, the fact they had been given the coordinates means that it was on purpose, mistake is impossible, so, you are conspiracy theorist, and you weep for humanity over what are in my mind, sad delusions. You jump from your total belief in this narrative to saying it's worse than My Lai, where crazed men slaughtered civilians, quite on purpose, and we know what happened there... So because I reject your stupid, emotionally demented theory, suddenly I'm heartless... This is why no one takes you seriously, ever.
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Old 7th November 2015, 12:12 PM   #110
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It just occurred to me: these are the people who are anti-genocide*.









8by other countries.
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Old 7th November 2015, 02:22 PM   #111
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A crazy conspiracy theory that the US blew up Doctors Without Borders on purpose is making people cry. I learn things every day.
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Old 7th November 2015, 02:25 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The flippant & sarcastic responses to comments on one of - if not the worst - war crimes in history is so heartening to me you wouldn't credit it.

Whatever your colour, creed or race, whether dove, hawk, aggressor or coward, no moral human being could do anything other than be revolted by what happened in Kunduz.

To see that there are people brave enough to sit down at a computer keyboard and scorn those revolted by it firms my faith in our species.

Thanks guys.
I'm curious how you know it was a war crime? Usually such crimes are determined only after a thorough investigation into what decisions were made based on what available information. Third-hand reports in the media seem to be insufficient to make such a determination. Are you leaping to conclusions? Do you have additional information? Is this one of those pacifist "all war is crime" type war crimes?
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Old 7th November 2015, 02:59 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The flippant & sarcastic responses to comments on one of - if not the worst - war crimes in history is so heartening to me you wouldn't credit it.

Whatever your colour, creed or race, whether dove, hawk, aggressor or coward, no moral human being could do anything other than be revolted by what happened in Kunduz.

To see that there are people brave enough to sit down at a computer keyboard and scorn those revolted by it firms my faith in our species.

Thanks guys.
Even if it had been an intentional attack on a hospital because it was a hospital, that you would consider that even remotely possible as the worst war crime in history speaks libraries.
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Old 7th November 2015, 03:25 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm curious how you know it was a war crime?
The hospital was deliberately targeted. The people running from the hospital were fired upon and killed.

Whether the targeting was deliberate or some kind of coincidence of stupidity due to having an army of morons does not change the fact that the hospital was targeted.

If I shoot a person while out hunting because I have failed to identify my target, I commit a crime.

The attack on the hospital is a war crime.

Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Even if it had been an intentional attack on a hospital because it was a hospital, that you would consider that even remotely possible as the worst war crime in history speaks libraries.
Nominate a better suggestion - I'm open to them.

All you need to come up with a single instance that matches the MSF hospital attack in immorality. The best I can come up with is My Lai, and I think this surpasses it, so over to you.
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Old 7th November 2015, 03:34 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
A hospital was shot up accidentally, this is sad.
Your assumption that it was accidental is noted.

Given the attacking force knowing the co-ordinates matched a hospital, the "accident" part is difficult to believe. As I noted in the post above, I accept that the crass stupidity of the scum that are employed by US military are sufficiently moronic to screw up a simple set of instructions and attacked the hospital in the mistaken belief it was a target.

That would be an error of monumental proportions, but not within any reasonable description of "accidental".

However, your immediate defensive position of screaming "conspiracy" again speaks volumes as to your zeal and error. The following is pure nonsense, and breaks so many fallacies I wouldn't want to list them all*:

Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
You think it was on purpose,
Incorrect.

Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
there is a cover-up,
Incorrect.

Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
the fact they had been given the coordinates means that it was on purpose, mistake is impossible,
Incorrect.

Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
so, you are conspiracy theorist,
Incorrect.

Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
and you weep for humanity over what are in my mind, sad delusions.
Incorrect.

I weep for humanity over an incident that should be the final nail in the rotting corpse of the idea that war is cool, but won't even create a ripple.

*strawman, poisoning the well, false premises...
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Old 7th November 2015, 03:41 PM   #116
Joey McGee
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So basically you redefine accident, war crime and conspiracy theory to suit your purpose, hedge anyway by saying "knowing the co-ordinates matched a hospital, the "accident" part is difficult to believe" and continue on blathering about how war is evil, this proves it, it's massacre, you're all heartless, blah blah blah, not much I can say but you're completely out to lunch, intellectually dishonest, both or trolling.

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Old 7th November 2015, 04:31 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
So basically you redefine accident, war crime and conspiracy theory to suit your purpose....
No.

We stopped calling car crashes "accidents" many years ago, because they are almost never accidents. in 99.9+% of cases, the driver of at least one vehicle is at fault. An accidental crash is a rock falling onto a car - a driver going too fast is not.

The MSF attack is demonstrably - and admitted by US - as being someone's fault.

That is not an accident.
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Old 7th November 2015, 05:17 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The hospital was deliberately targeted. The people running from the hospital were fired upon and killed.

Whether the targeting was deliberate or some kind of coincidence of stupidity due to having an army of morons does not change the fact that the hospital was targeted.

If I shoot a person while out hunting because I have failed to identify my target, I commit a crime.

The attack on the hospital is a war crime.
You do know that intentionally targeting a hospital is not always a war crime, right?
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Old 7th November 2015, 05:29 PM   #119
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So, no instances you can think of, then.
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Old 7th November 2015, 05:37 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
So, no instances you can think of, then.
Were you replying to me? Intentionally targeting a hospital is not necessarily a war crime. Can we at least agree on whether or not it was a crime, before we move on to determining how horrible of a crime it was (if it was, in fact, a crime)?

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