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Old 16th April 2019, 07:22 AM   #241
luchog
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No it wouldn’t. There would still be a division between less and more prestigious schools. And it’s not like this scandal involved people who had a hard time paying for education. Free college contingent on academic performance would just introduce a strong incentive to cheat on that performance.

The current division between prestigious and less-prestigious schools is based on one factor far and away above all others. Want to take a guess what that is?

As a general rule, the more money you can put into a school system for curricula, facilities, teachers, etc., the better results you're going to get out of it. And the more money you can put into a school system, the more students it will be able to handle.

The US could dramatically increase education spending through a proportionately very small cut in defense spending, and by effectively taxing the numerous megacorps and billionaires who get away with paying nothing in taxes as things stand right now.
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:51 PM   #242
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So Felicity Huffman gets sentenced to 14 days in federal prison and other penalties for helping her daughter cheat the SATs.
https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ssions-scandal

I am in no way defending rich people buying favors for their kids. But that's pretty much a core characteristic of rich people. Should cheating on a college entrance exam be am actual federal felony? Discuss.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:45 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Should cheating on a college entrance exam be am actual federal felony? Discuss.
That's an easy one. The cheater doesn't get to go to any college in the state, ever. A shutout. And their record of cheating is transmitted to all other states. If those colleges choose to ignore that then it is on their head.

The point of cheating was to get into a college, whether they qualified academically or not. The penalty should be appropriate.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:47 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That's an easy one. The cheater doesn't get to go to any college in the state, ever. A shutout. And their record of cheating is transmitted to all other states. If those colleges choose to ignore that then it is on their head.



The point of cheating was to get into a college, whether they qualified academically or not. The penalty should be appropriate.
Seems like getting into a prestigious American university would be penalty enough.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:55 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That's an easy one. The cheater doesn't get to go to any college in the state, ever. A shutout. And their record of cheating is transmitted to all other states. If those colleges choose to ignore that then it is on their head.

The point of cheating was to get into a college, whether they qualified academically or not. The penalty should be appropriate.
But by all accounts the daughter wasn't knowingly in on it. She just did what her mother and her tutor told her to do. Should her life be wrecked? And USC is a private institution; the state could tell state schools what to do, but not private ones. And in her particular case, she has the money to go to school anywhere in the world.

But those are administrative issues. The question is should Huffman be guilty of a federal felony?
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:55 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The current division between prestigious and less-prestigious schools is based on one factor far and away above all others. Want to take a guess what that is?

As a general rule, the more money you can put into a school system for curricula, facilities, teachers, etc., the better results you're going to get out of it. And the more money you can put into a school system, the more students it will be able to handle.
That's really not true at all. There is extensive literature at the primary school level showing that increased spending does little to increase school performance. And at the college level, the primary determinant of student performance is student admissions. The richest schools attract the best students, but that doesn't mean that they're actually doing any better job at educating them. There are essentially ZERO good metrics to demonstrate how successful colleges are at teaching students separate from how good they are at recruiting talented students.

As for the idea of increased government funding, we've been doing that for decades, and all it's accomplished is to inflate the cost of college beyond reason. There are some simple steps we could take to reduce educational inequality (for example, get rid of tax exemptions for college endowment earnings), but throwing money at the problem is bound to fail.
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:30 PM   #247
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When has throwing ( government ) money at anything, ever improved anything besides increasing the yield of a nuclear weapon?
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:15 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
When has throwing ( government ) money at anything, ever improved anything besides increasing the yield of a nuclear weapon?

Well, I have a large number of friends and family members who wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for "throwing ( government ) money" at social programs intended to provide food, shelter, healthcare, and disability assistance.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:25 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But by all accounts the daughter wasn't knowingly in on it. She just did what her mother and her tutor told her to do. Should her life be wrecked? And USC is a private institution; the state could tell state schools what to do, but not private ones. And in her particular case, she has the money to go to school anywhere in the world.
That's requiring the kid to be an actual imbecile, though. Was she adult enough to be responsible for her application process, or do we let her tee-hee her way out of it? Wasn't that affluenza thing tried already?

Quote:
But those are administrative issues. The question is shoul fraud committed d Huffman be guilty of a federal felony?
Might mean the tide is turning against the rich, and if they want to commit fraud, they can do time like any other defrauder. Good job, too
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:42 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's requiring the kid to be an actual imbecile, though. Was she adult enough to be responsible for her application process, or do we let her tee-hee her way out of it? Wasn't that affluenza thing tried already?







Might mean the tide is turning against the rich, and if they want to commit fraud, they can do time like any other defrauder. Good job, too
What age do people go to university in the USA?
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:45 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What age do people go to university in the USA?
Most at 18 yrs old

Eta: assuming straight out of high school. Same age to volunteer for combat, and too young in many states to buy a beer or cigarettes.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:50 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Most at 18 yrs old

Eta: assuming straight out of high school. Same age to volunteer for combat, and too young in many states to buy a beer or cigarettes.
Too young in ANY state to buy a beer. Not sure about tobacco.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:44 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's requiring the kid to be an actual imbecile, though. Was she adult enough to be responsible for her application process, or do we let her tee-hee her way out of it? Wasn't that affluenza thing tried already?



Might mean the tide is turning against the rich, and if they want to commit fraud, they can do time like any other defrauder. Good job, too
Agreed. What college applicant isn't checking their own scores? When I was a high school senior, I was checking the testing websites every day for updates. I would have noticed an abhorrent SAT score, and I think most every other college applicant would have too.

The daughter didn't notice that she got a killer test score out of nowhere? If she wasn't aware, then she was letting her mommy or someone else complete her application. Either is a character flaw. By the time you are going to college, you should be the driver of your own affairs.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:55 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The daughter didn't notice that she got a killer test score out of nowhere? If she wasn't aware, then she was letting her mommy or someone else complete her application. Either is a character flaw. By the time you are going to college, you should be the driver of your own affairs.

Welcome to the era of "helicopter parenting", where children are not allowed to learn self-sufficiency.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:05 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Welcome to the era of "helicopter parenting", where children are not allowed to learn self-sufficiency.
The universities probably have much more to blame. It is becoming increasingly difficult for them to pretend they are a meritocracy, because they keep stacking the deck for rich elites.

Poor kids don't have the opportunity to become the perfect college candidate. They can't afford to travel the world to "discover themselves", take up expensive hobbies, and do BS social work to demonstrate "character".

There is a reason these kids are being carefully curated by their parents, and the expensive hired help, into the perfect student. Because these colleges reward it. These parents pushed it a bit too far, but there have always been side doors for wealthy kids with lackluster academics to get into top tier schools.

Huffman should have just had her kid become a varsity sailor or polo player, or a deep sea cello expert, or any other rich people crap that impresses admissions officers so much. These admissions officers will never let go of these subjective standards, because that is key tool to stacking the deck for the rich elites.

Trying to ace tests is for poor people, Huffman was a fool to take this route.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:09 AM   #256
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Well again because colleges became functionally useless as learning centers right about the time the internet got widespread. A 250 dollar Chromebook and a 50 dollar a month internet service plan gives you access to more learning opportunities then all the colleges in the world combined.

Colleges only exist in the state they do now in most cases because we as a society still value "Take four years off your life, go sit in a room to have someone stand in front of the room and read off the same lecture you can watch (sometimes literally verbatim) on Youtube and give you a piece of paper after 4 years."
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:11 AM   #257
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^^^^ But that's how you end up with flat earthers. The internet is full of information, but it's not all good information.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:12 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well again because colleges became functionally useless as learning centers right about the time the internet got widespread. A 250 dollar Chromebook and a 50 dollar a month internet service plan gives you access to more learning opportunities then all the colleges in the world combined.

Colleges only exist in the state they do now in most cases because we as a society still value "Take four years off your life, go sit in a room to have someone stand in front of the room and read off the same lecture you can watch (sometimes literally verbatim) on Youtube and give you a piece of paper after 4 years."
The difference between an elite school and an ordinary state school isn't the education, it's the access to leaders in the field.

Sure, you don't need to go to MIT to learn calculus I. But you do need to go to MIT to work in the lab of a Nobel prize winner. Elite schools allow up and coming students to meet with the best and brightest in their field, and that access is tremendously valuable.

Elite schools have the most interesting research, the most prominent professors, the most well funded labs, and the most interesting projects.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:14 AM   #259
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Why do the children of millionaires need to go to college anyway? Not like they'll need to work for a living. And even if they did, apparently the child of a celebrity can earn more money by Instagramming that they use a particular brand of lip gloss than I can make in my entire lifetime of college-educated careering.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:20 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
^^^^ But that's how you end up with flat earthers. The internet is full of information, but it's not all good information.
Yup. And I prefer my doctor to have more experience than googling it.

The college structure also allows for the student to interact with a professor, who can evaluate progress and identify problems.

Could many universities be streamlined to being online courses? Sure. But sooner or later the student needs to be observed. The final exam or board certification test is an awfully late time to start that.
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Old 16th September 2019, 08:01 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why do the children of millionaires need to go to college anyway? Not like they'll need to work for a living.
No. But they need a job for status. And the rich don't want to part with status any more than they want to part with luxury.

Quote:
And even if they did, apparently the child of a celebrity can earn more money by Instagramming that they use a particular brand of lip gloss than I can make in my entire lifetime of college-educated careering.
Only if they're physically attractive. But most people, including most children of the rich, are kind of ugly.
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Old 16th September 2019, 08:02 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's requiring the kid to be an actual imbecile, though.
And that's hard to believe... why?
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Old 16th September 2019, 08:07 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And that's hard to believe... why?
Not hard to believe. Actually, easier to accept being hyper entitled and used to mommy taking care of things. I would certainly think it should nullify her application, though, if she shows such an appalling lack of responsibility and inability to follow instructions. Have her reapply when she has the acumen of a 17 year old. Might take a while.
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Old 16th September 2019, 08:15 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Only if they're physically attractive. But most people, including most children of the rich, are kind of ugly.
When two people become famous for careers based largely upon their good looks have children the odds of the children being good-looking are higher than the general population.

If not at least they'll have the money for plastic surgery and fancy makeup.
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Old 16th September 2019, 08:23 AM   #265
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I think these people just have very specific narratives written in their heads for how their children's lives should go.

Sure you could, much easier and cheaper and less legally shady, just buy your kid a way into a nice job instead of into college to get a job they don't need because they are set for life, but "Went to Ivy League" school is a scene in the play they have written in their heads for their offspring.
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Old 16th September 2019, 08:36 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
When two people become famous for careers based largely upon their good looks have children the odds of the children being good-looking are higher than the general population.
Sure, but that describes a small minority of rich people.
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Old 16th September 2019, 09:30 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The daughter didn't notice that she got a killer test score out of nowhere? If she wasn't aware, then she was letting her mommy or someone else complete her application. Either is a character flaw. By the time you are going to college, you should be the driver of your own affairs.
Having a character flaw is different from being guilty of a felony.
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Old 16th September 2019, 09:35 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. But they need a job for status. And the rich don't want to part with status any more than they want to part with luxury.
And it's not just the job that offers status, the education at a prestigious institution includes status all by itself.
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Old 16th September 2019, 09:38 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The difference between an elite school and an ordinary state school isn't the education, it's the access to leaders in the field.

Sure, you don't need to go to MIT to learn calculus I. But you do need to go to MIT to work in the lab of a Nobel prize winner. Elite schools allow up and coming students to meet with the best and brightest in their field, and that access is tremendously valuable.

Elite schools have the most interesting research, the most prominent professors, the most well funded labs, and the most interesting projects.
That's a compelling story that certainly makes sense to me, but my understanding is that if you correct for SAT scores, elite institutions don't actually lead to greater success, for instance according metrics like papers published or citations in working scientists.
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Old 16th September 2019, 10:02 AM   #270
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I can't get over the fact that USC is getting all this free publicity as a "prestigious university". They should be giving this girl an honorary marketing degree just for that.
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Old 16th September 2019, 10:32 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So Felicity Huffman gets sentenced to 14 days in federal prison and other penalties for helping her daughter cheat the SATs.
https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ssions-scandal

I am in no way defending rich people buying favors for their kids. But that's pretty much a core characteristic of rich people. Should cheating on a college entrance exam be am actual federal felony? Discuss.

Meanwhile, poor, and mainly black, parents who have misrepresented their children's addresses in order to get them into better school districts are sentenced to up to [b]five years[/i] in prison.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/mom-...191400017.html

It's being called "education theft". If that's not a truly insane indictment of our culture, nothing is.

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...-lead-to-jail/
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Old 16th September 2019, 10:34 AM   #272
luchog
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That's a compelling story that certainly makes sense to me, but my understanding is that if you correct for SAT scores, elite institutions don't actually lead to greater success, for instance according metrics like papers published or citations in working scientists.

Not in STEM fields that may be true, since those are knowledge-based; but in other fields like business and politics it certainly can lead to greater success, because success in those fields is more based on who you know and the personal networks that you build up, starting at university.
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Old 16th September 2019, 04:37 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I can't get over the fact that USC is getting all this free publicity as a "prestigious university". They should be giving this girl an honorary marketing degree just for that.
I'll admit I laughed a little too hard at this.
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Old 16th September 2019, 04:41 PM   #274
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I can't get over the fact that USC is getting all this free publicity as a "prestigious university". They should be giving this girl an honorary marketing degree just for that.
I was thinking an Honorary Participation Medal
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:46 AM   #275
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I can't get over the fact that USC is getting all this free publicity as a "prestigious university". They should be giving this girl an honorary marketing degree just for that.

US News ranks USC as No. 22 among national universities, tied with Berkeley and ahead of Georgetown, Michigan, UVa and NYU. It accepts 13% of applicants. UCLA is No. 20. If you want to stay on the West Coast it would be a top choice -- if you could get in.
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...l-universities
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...alifornia-1328
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Old 17th September 2019, 01:02 AM   #276
Darat
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Most at 18 yrs old

Eta: assuming straight out of high school. Same age to volunteer for combat, and too young in many states to buy a beer or cigarettes.
Then why arent the "children" being prosecuted as well?
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Old 17th September 2019, 01:36 AM   #277
elgarak
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Not in STEM fields that may be true, since those are knowledge-based; but in other fields like business and politics it certainly can lead to greater success, because success in those fields is more based on who you know and the personal networks that you build up, starting at university.
I assume you have never worked in a STEM field?

Because you're ridiculously wrong.
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Old 17th September 2019, 01:49 AM   #278
rockinkt
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then why arent the "children" being prosecuted as well?
I may be old fashioned - but I always thought a person needed to break a law before they could be charged. What specific law did Felicity Huffman's kid break?
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Old 17th September 2019, 07:32 AM   #279
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then why arent the "children" being prosecuted as well?
From what I've read, the parents were the actors, and the 'children' unwitting dupes. I personally don't buy it, but I imagine the prosecution has more tangible evidence on the parents' actions.

I don't know the kids' ages, but many application processes start when the student is still a minor. I personally had my kids take an active roll in their enrollment, so they would never have to say 'I dunno, mom and dad did all that'. Well, in addition to teaching them adult responsibility.

Off topic, but Ms Thermal and I have been teaching the kids how to cook, clean, sew, budget, and the works since they were in grade school. They actually appreciate it now that they are in dorms and apartments. They have all said they are surprised at how little other students know about taking care of themselves.
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Old 17th September 2019, 07:49 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
I may be old fashioned - but I always thought a person needed to break a law before they could be charged. What specific law did Felicity Huffman's kid break?
Surely the same as the parents are being prosecuted for, the parent was only acting as a proxy for the 18 year old adult?
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