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Tags Amber Guyger , Dallas incidents , murder cases , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents , Texas cases

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Old 1st May 2019, 06:11 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I believe that she thought she was in her apartment. I also believe she shot him dead because she wanted to, not because she was even a little bit in fear of anything. Murder 2
You think her intent was to kill a complete stranger in the wrong apartment?
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:14 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
To be fair, I think this would be much less of a problem if policemen were expected to undertake a higher burden of risk than civilians.
They automatically undertake a higher burden of risk. As a profession, they are regularly fired upon and assaulted. Unlike civilians, they run towards armed and dangerous criminals instead of running away from them.
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:16 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
You think her intent was to kill a complete stranger in the wrong apartment?
Again this only matters in this loony bin world people live in where "intent" is the same thing as "preplanning."

The phrase someone used earlier was "These are the facts, and they are not in dispute." She pointed her gun at another human being and pulled the trigger. Did she think her gun shot magical healing bullets?
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:18 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
They automatically undertake a higher burden of risk. As a profession, they are regularly fired upon and assaulted. Unlike civilians, they run towards armed and dangerous criminals instead of running away from them.
Also they... well don't take on a higher burden of risk. Law Enforcement doesn't break the top ten of most dangerous professions in the US.
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:24 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
To be fair, I think this would be much less of a problem if policemen were expected to undertake a higher burden of risk than civilians.
They're not even in the top 10 of most hazardous jobs here in the states! And yet, they've convinced themselves, that they're an occupying force in a hostile environment.

I think part of the problem is in wording of who's who: in my post, I said "if a civilian"; then it struck me: they're civilians too. Somewhere along the line, the police began to think of themselves as beyond civilians, instead of people doing a job, just like the rest of us. Or perhaps it was ever thus; just seems to me that a minority view is now the majority accepted view among police.

If I were to say where the crucial turning point was, I would probably say it was when shooting an unarmed person, which used to get one convicted of murder, became an acceptable excuse "because. reasons." I remember the old days where cops would be frantic about finding the weapon they said the suspect had, because they would be up the creek if they didn't. Where bad cops carried extra pieces for planting if a shoot went wrong (or right). Now? Why even bother? "He made a move to his waistband ("socks", "jacket after I asked him for ID", "just moved his arm while sleeping in his car")". Bang.
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:27 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
They automatically undertake a higher burden of risk. As a profession, they are regularly fired upon and assaulted. Unlike civilians, they run towards armed and dangerous criminals instead of running away from them.
Actually, as we've seen from so many cases, it's been well established that they do not have to run towards anything dangerous. (subway slasher, etc) However, if they command you to assist them in a dangerous situation, you have to comply. Dissonance, anyone?
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:29 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also they... well don't take on a higher burden of risk. Law Enforcement doesn't break the top ten of most dangerous professions in the US.
I wonder where they would rank if they were always unarmed and did not also carry the less-lethal weapons like tasers and teargas and flash grenades, etc.

Imagine the dangers when trying to take violent and armed American criminals to jail without having your own gun. Who would take that job?
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:32 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder where they would rank if they were always unarmed and did not also carry the less-lethal weapons like tasers and teargas and flash grenades, etc.

Imagine the dangers when trying to take violent and armed American criminals to jail without having your own gun. Who would take that job?
*Confused* How high would lumberjacks rank if they weren't allowed to use chainsaws but had to chop down trees with their bare hands what kind of nonsense is that...

Beside what's your broader point? That "Protect and Serve" means they get to kill unarmed black people sitting in their own homes every once in a while?
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:38 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
You think her intent was to kill a complete stranger in the wrong apartment?
No, I think she personifies the Yosemite Sam mentality, that thinks you can pop a cap in anyone you think crossed your path. No regard for who it was, or what they were doing there, or if they posed a grave threat, or if they could be subdued without killing. People like this are murderers on the hoof, just waiting for their opportunity to kill with impunity.

As I said upthread, I live in a beach town where summer renters and maintenance workers frequently walk in the wrong houses. I've walked in my home to find strange men alone in it. Hell, I've woken up to find unknown guys inside. You know what I didn't do? Kill them. You know why? They were not threatening my life and I am not a ******* murderer.
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Old 1st May 2019, 07:13 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also they... well don't take on a higher burden of risk. Law Enforcement doesn't break the top ten of most dangerous professions in the US.
Depends on what you mean by dangerous. Police can use force to mitigate dangers, so suffer less casualties. That doesn't mean they weren't in extreme danger, even more so than a garbage collector.
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Old 1st May 2019, 07:40 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I believe that the Jean Family attorney (Merritt) and claimed witness Bunny both still think that she went to his apartment for the purpose of murdering him knowing that it was his apartment. There have been other people in the press as well who think that it was a pre-planned murder. I don't know if the 911 call transcript would change their thinking.

She did administer first aid, and in her call you can hear her speaking to Jean both as encouraging him to remain alert (stay alive) and apologizing to him. It isn't typical for a murderer to want their victim to stay alive... to be alive... to be able to testify against them in court for what they have done.

The fact that Guyger wanted Jean to be alive is contrary to the theory that she went there to murder him. It could even be argued that wanting him to be alive is contrary to intentional murder with racist intent. We have people in this forum and elsewhere saying that she only pulled the trigger because Jean was black.
that's a large leap just based on words.
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Old 1st May 2019, 07:57 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
..... I've walked in my home to find strange men alone in it. Hell, I've woken up to find unknown guys inside.
.....
This relates to the discussion of deadbolts above: You need better locks, or at least better key control.
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Old 1st May 2019, 08:00 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
.....
However, if they command you to assist them in a dangerous situation, you have to comply. Dissonance, anyone?
Is there a source for that? Bystanders have been criticized for not choosing to help cops in trouble, but I'd be surprised if a cop could order you "Hey, go chase that bank robber!"
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Old 1st May 2019, 08:08 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This relates to the discussion of deadbolts above: You need better locks, or at least better key control.
The locks are fine, we just don't use them. Also, it's besides the point. The issue is what to do when confronted with a stranger in your home, not prevention.
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Old 1st May 2019, 08:13 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Is there a source for that? Bystanders have been criticized for not choosing to help cops in trouble, but I'd be surprised if a cop could order you "Hey, go chase that bank robber!"
It was on one of these discussion threads in this sub-fora, probably one of the "USA police acting badly" threads.

I wish when you searched for words using the search feature, it took you to the very post with the words, rather than page 1 of a 30 page thread. Makes it pretty useless.
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Old 1st May 2019, 08:16 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The locks are fine, we just don't use them. Also, it's besides the point. The issue is what to do when confronted with a stranger in your home, not prevention.
I think most of us here agree that the cop was wildly unjustified and deserves hard time.
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Old 1st May 2019, 08:20 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Is there a source for that? Bystanders have been criticized for not choosing to help cops in trouble, but I'd be surprised if a cop could order you "Hey, go chase that bank robber!"
Broadly it gets into the same laws that have to do with forming posse's and commandeering cars. The police have that legal power but it really isn't one that they use. And again like a lot of things it will depend on the state as well.
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Old 1st May 2019, 08:22 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Depends on what you mean by dangerous. Police can use force to mitigate dangers, so suffer less casualties. That doesn't mean they weren't in extreme danger, even more so than a garbage collector.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The locks are fine, we just don't use them. Also, it's besides the point. The issue is what to do when confronted with a stranger in your home, not prevention.
Clearly you should use extreme force like the police to keep you safe like them.
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Old 1st May 2019, 08:29 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I think most of us here agree that the cop was wildly unjustified and deserves hard time.
Most do. Some are pretty clearly trying to downplay it. My position is that it does not matter how sleepy she was, or where she thought she was, or any of the flatulent mitigations offered. She killed a guy that posed no imminent threat. That's murder. Not just unjustified, or reckless, or negligent, or whoopsie-daisy inadvertent killing. Murder.
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Old 1st May 2019, 08:41 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Subject for discussion: If she had stepped out of the apartment and pulled the door closed after she shot him, would she ever have been caught? How long would it have taken? There were no security cameras, and even if neighbors had heard shots, they didn't see anything. She could have claimed that she went home to her unit, heard "what sounded like shots," and went upstairs to investigate. If neighbors peered out they would have seen a uniformed police officer investigating a suspicious noise. I suspect that we could be in a different place today if she had kept her wits about her. (Of course, if she had any wits she wouldn't have shot anybody in the first place.)
Ballistic evidence presumably would have tied the bullet that killed him to her gun. Of course, if they believed her story, it's possible that her gun wouldn't have been checked.
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Old 1st May 2019, 08:45 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Its usually doors with decorative glass inserts. They theorize that someone will break through two layers of glass and reach in to turn the deadbolt by hand. Some worry about toddlers locking people out. Both are possible, but getting trapped inside during an emergency trumps those concerns, IMO
I once lived in a rental house that had deadbolts that required a key for the inside. I didn't lock them when I was inside; just the lock on the doorknob, because I was concerned about getting out quickly in the event of a fire.
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Old 1st May 2019, 09:54 AM   #102
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It's different states and different situations, but the guilty verdict for the Minneapolis police officer in the other thread might be instructive. Seems like a somewhat similar situation, a scaredy-cat cop guns down an unarmed person they shouldn't have. I'd note that Noor was convicted on the less severe end of the murder spectrum and is only facing up to 20 years.

Guyger's case might be treated more harshly in that she was essentially trespassing during her instance of trigger happy overreactions.
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Old 1st May 2019, 09:59 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
It was on one of these discussion threads in this sub-fora, probably one of the "USA police acting badly" threads.

I wish when you searched for words using the search feature, it took you to the very post with the words, rather than page 1 of a 30 page thread. Makes it pretty useless.
It can take you the actual post.
It depends on if you click on the thread name or on the post title.
I just tested it and it will happily take me to the exact post.
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Old 1st May 2019, 10:06 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Guyger's case might be treated more harshly in that she was essentially trespassing during her instance of trigger happy overreactions.
Yes but we've been told in very specific terms by a half dozen people who totally aren't saying she should walk that she... pause for dramatic effect thought something different, therefore being the Lathe of Heaven her thoughts create the reality she has to be judged by because reasons.
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Old 1st May 2019, 10:12 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes but we've been told in very specific terms by a half dozen people who totally aren't saying she should walk that she... pause for dramatic effect thought something different, therefore being the Lathe of Heaven her thoughts create the reality she has to be judged by because reasons.
Seems exceedingly likely that her state of mind and lack of mens rea will very much play into her defense. I'd imagine her attorney would rather have the jury believe that extreme negligence and split second reactions lead to the death of the victim rather than malice.

Arguments over her faulty assumptions and intentions could very well be the difference in many years of prison time. Noor will presumably leave prison with many years of life to live a free man which would not be the case had he been convicted of a more severe form of murder. In Guyger's case, a similar outcome might be considered a success by the defense.
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Old 1st May 2019, 10:19 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems exceedingly likely that her state of mind and lack of mens rea will very much play into her defense. I'd imagine her attorney would rather have the jury believe that extreme negligence and split second reactions lead to the death of the victim rather than malice.

Arguments over her faulty assumptions and intentions could very well be the difference in many years of prison time. Noor will presumably leave prison with many years of life to live a free man which would not be the case had he been convicted of a more severe form of murder. In Guyger's case, a similar outcome might be considered a success by the defense.
Yes as I've said repeatedly until the same level of fervor for "mens rea" as a magic word and hair splitting over parking spots and the exact height of door numbers and placement of welcome mats is applied to black people shooting cops while executing no-knock warrants in the middle of the night (often at the wrong location funny that) or white supremacist running down protesters I maintain there's an icky sheen to this whole thing.
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Old 1st May 2019, 10:44 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
You think her intent was to kill a complete stranger in the wrong apartment?
Not sure what the wrong apartment has to do with it but she certainly intended "to kill a complete stranger". The evidence we already have overwhelmingly supports that, unless you want to claim we don't it was her that fired the shots that killed Jean?
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Old 1st May 2019, 10:51 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems exceedingly likely that her state of mind and lack of mens rea will very much play into her defense. I'd imagine her attorney would rather have the jury believe that extreme negligence and split second reactions lead to the death of the victim rather than malice.

Arguments over her faulty assumptions and intentions could very well be the difference in many years of prison time. Noor will presumably leave prison with many years of life to live a free man which would not be the case had he been convicted of a more severe form of murder. In Guyger's case, a similar outcome might be considered a success by the defense.
But this was not a split second decision. She had to see Jean, deliberately unholster her gun, disengage the safety (I assume that, my knowledge of guns is a bit basic the hard bit comes out of the hole) take aim and then fire. She then decided to fire again.

That is not a split second decision.
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Old 1st May 2019, 11:08 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But this was not a split second decision. She had to see Jean, deliberately unholster her gun, disengage the safety (I assume that, my knowledge of guns is a bit basic the hard bit comes out of the hole) take aim and then fire. She then decided to fire again.

That is not a split second decision.
besides the fact she was standing in a hallway to begin with and should have called for backup. how did she know there wasn't a gang in the apartment when she found the door open? or will she be hailed a hero for throwing caution to the wind?
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Old 1st May 2019, 11:45 AM   #110
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It's been said a few times in this thread but I honestly believe the most damning part has nothing at all to do with whether she genuinely thought she was in her own apartment or not. There are valid reasons why you might find a stranger in your apartment. The first one which springs to mind sort of happened to me recently : my water heater line burst and it was heavily flooding my downstairs neighbor. That's the sort of situation where maintenance isn't going to give you 24 hours' notice that they'll be entering your apartment. Had I come home while they were dealing with the situation I'd have found two large strangers in my home. Less than 10 seconds of dialog would clear up the situation and no one would have needed to be shot.

Nothing I've read about the case indicates that she came anywhere near properly assessing the situation before she decided to kill. That's what will (or rather should) seal her fate, irrespective of whose apartment it really was, or whose she thought it was.
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Old 1st May 2019, 12:25 PM   #111
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I still think there has to be intent.

She had to be intending to kill an unarmed man in his home.

It seems pretty clear, that she was intending to protect herself from an intruder.

I don't know what the precedence is. If any. But if a police officer intends to reach for his taser, and instead reaches for his gun, they have been cleared in past instances.
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Old 1st May 2019, 12:30 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I still think there has to be intent.

She had to be intending to kill an unarmed man in his home.
And, I ask for the billionth time, doesn't that just unmake the concept of a crime? Couldn't any crime be countered with "Oh well I thought the situation I was in was different, so you have to let me go."

And no weaseling out of the question, I want an answer.

What could be a crime in your world?
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Old 1st May 2019, 01:16 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But this was not a split second decision. She had to see Jean, deliberately unholster her gun, disengage the safety (I assume that, my knowledge of guns is a bit basic the hard bit comes out of the hole) take aim and then fire. She then decided to fire again.
Guns rarely have safeties anymore, they just depend on a heavy trigger pull. And of course this does result in people shooting themselves and others with regularity as well, but apparently it is considered worth it for that 1/4 second in situations like this one.
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Old 1st May 2019, 01:18 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
It's been said a few times in this thread but I honestly believe the most damning part has nothing at all to do with whether she genuinely thought she was in her own apartment or not. There are valid reasons why you might find a stranger in your apartment. The first one which springs to mind sort of happened to me recently : my water heater line burst and it was heavily flooding my downstairs neighbor. That's the sort of situation where maintenance isn't going to give you 24 hours' notice that they'll be entering your apartment. Had I come home while they were dealing with the situation I'd have found two large strangers in my home. Less than 10 seconds of dialog would clear up the situation and no one would have needed to be shot.
Clearly you are not a cop in texas, that would be a great reason to shoot someone, why they even had threatening weapons in their hands!
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Old 1st May 2019, 01:23 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Guns rarely have safeties anymore, they just depend on a heavy trigger pull. And of course this does result in people shooting themselves and others with regularity as well, but apparently it is considered worth it for that 1/4 second in situations like this one.
The standard sidearm of the Dallas PD is the SIG Sauer P226, which does not have an external manual safety.
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Old 1st May 2019, 01:33 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I still think there has to be intent.

She had to be intending to kill an unarmed man in his home.

It seems pretty clear, that she was intending to protect herself from an intruder.

I don't know what the precedence is. If any. But if a police officer intends to reach for his taser, and instead reaches for his gun, they have been cleared in past instances.
There does have to be intent, but what you are describing is premeditation, not intent.

She intended to shoot the man. She intended to use what she knew to be lethal force against another person. She did not intend to tase him. She did not think her gun was loaded with blanks. She did not intend to shoot a warning shot over his head. Her actions reflect her intentions, his death is the result of her intentional acts.

Her mistake of fact may protect her from the most serious charges of murder. You'd have to refer back to the dozen or so times the Texas penal code was quoted in this thread and its ancestors to find the exact charge.

But, please stop pretending like this crime is lacking intent.
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Old 1st May 2019, 01:44 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
She intended to shoot the man. She intended to use what she knew to be lethal force against another person. She did not intend to tase him. She did not think her gun was loaded with blanks. She did not intend to shoot a warning shot over his head. Her actions reflect her intentions, his death is the result of her intentional acts.
And again to reiterate, these are the facts and they are not in dispute.
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Old 1st May 2019, 02:00 PM   #118
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Quote:
It seems pretty clear, that she was intending to protect herself from an intruder.
are you saying she was going to shoot herself as the rightful intruder?
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Old 1st May 2019, 02:30 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I still think there has to be intent.

She had to be intending to kill an unarmed man in his home.

It seems pretty clear, that she was intending to protect herself from an intruder.

I don't know what the precedence is. If any. But if a police officer intends to reach for his taser, and instead reaches for his gun, they have been cleared in past instances.
She fired her gun at someone, her intent was to kill the person she shot at. What do you think her intent was?
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:12 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I still think there has to be intent.

She had to be intending to kill an unarmed man in his home.

It seems pretty clear, that she was intending to protect herself from an intruder.

I don't know what the precedence is. If any. But if a police officer intends to reach for his taser, and instead reaches for his gun, they have been cleared in past instances.

IMO only : she didn't do anywhere near enough to assess the situation before deciding she needed to kill (or protect herself). Back when I took hunter safety and when the NRA was only about how to be safe with firearms, one of the first few things drilled into me was being sure about my target. She didn't in any way do that (at least as has been reported). I hate to make an analogy to a cartoon, but it's almost as if she made a South Parkian pronouncement of "it's coming right for us!" and opened fire.

I'm pro-law enforcement enough that I usually don't comment on that topic here (and so much so that I accept I'll never be allowed to sit on a jury), given the general board leanings on the issue. But even with that acknowledged bias of mine, this case just absolutely stinks to high heaven. Hell, I put more effort into target identification before going 'all guns blazing' when I was a teenager full of testosterone and bullets on his first hunting trip than what a purported law enforcement officer did in the case in question.
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