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Old 14th May 2019, 10:45 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Seems like it would roll off the tongue easier if they just folded everything into the "Queer" label, although trans and intersex don't really fit in a group about sexual orientation.
Well, not everyone identifies as queer. Some lesbians are particularly emphatic about it, or so I've heard. (One example) "Queer" is vaguer, and implies at least the possibility of being open to non-lesbian sex.
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Old 15th May 2019, 12:31 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
The final word on the subject is this: The whole subject is complicated, fluid and nuanced. There is no simple "yes/no" answer that will perfectly fill all of the blanks. People who want to pretend there are no ambiguities are probably contending with their own difficulties processing information more than anything else.
Exactly. Transgender issues have no absolute positions beyond "yes, it is difficult to answer". There is nothing to "debunk" there are true/false. Transgender people have complicated, ambigious problems with their genders by definition of transgenderism. To pretend there even exists a way to package it neatly into a series of true/false statements is plain dumb.

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Old 15th May 2019, 05:19 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Exactly. Transgender issues have no absolute positions beyond "yes, it is difficult to answer". There is nothing to "debunk" there are true/false. Transgender people have complicated, ambigious problems with their genders by definition of transgenderism. To pretend there even exists a way to package it neatly into a series of true/false statements is plain dumb.

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I think the closest you can get for some sports is to break them down not by male/female categories but by testosterone levels - and even hen you have the problem of a lifetime of naturally-occurring testosterone versus a few moths or years without it. The whole subject is a huge mess.
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:21 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The guy who runs a (well-known among atheists on YouTube) YouTube channel called "Rationality Rules" posted a video criticizing some people's negative reactions to an athletic association's ruling that an athlete with an intersex disorder can't enter competitions with women in that association's events because that athlete is not a woman. He said that the athletic association made an appropriate decision and the objections to it didn't make sense.
Factually incorrect, there is no public information that she has an intersex condition, just unusually high testosterone. And the ruling is based solely on her natural hormone levels nothing about intersex conditions.
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:23 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Each sport is its own thing though, as far as the athletes are concerned.

If the sport (event) you happen to specialize in is, say, the 800 meter race, it could take only a single athlete like the one in question to prevent all the other women from succeeding if success is defined as a gold medal.

If an athlete happens to be a shotputter, it is no consolation to them if women can succeed in other events, if she is prevented from succeeding in her own event. Etc.
And of course such an exceptional athlete would need to have their body chemistry regulation like they are doing to Michael Phelps, to preserve competition.

Oh wait they are not doing that with men who have similar natural advantages, but clearly they should to lower their natural ability to preserve competition.
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:41 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Factually incorrect, there is no public information that she has an intersex condition, just unusually high testosterone.
The first three women mentioned in the offending video are Rachel McKinnon, Laurel Habbard, & Hannah Mouncey. Whom are you referring to here and when are they mentioned in Woodford's video?
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:50 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The first three women mentioned in the offending video are Rachel McKinnon, Laurel Habbard, & Hannah Mouncey. Whom are you referring to here and when are they mentioned in Woodford's video?
Caster Semenya. That being the most recent issue that would reasonably bring these up.
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:53 AM   #48
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Not seeing Semenya mentioned in the video...?
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:15 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
an athletic association's ruling that an athlete with an intersex disorder can't enter competitions with women in that association's events because that athlete is not a woman.
I've rechecked the video. I apparently mixed up the video's subject with other news that came out at about the same time. The Caster Semenya ruling happened about a month after he published his video and a few days before his visit to Austin and appearance on The Atheist Experience, so reactions to both built up to a peak roughly simultaneously.
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:43 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Factually incorrect, there is no public information that she has an intersex condition, just unusually high testosterone. And the ruling is based solely on her natural hormone levels nothing about intersex conditions.
The information about a particular individual doesn't need to be publicly available. It only needs to be disclosed to a small number of people who determine who is eligible to compete in a particular event.

The rest of us can use logic to determine what that means.
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:52 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course such an exceptional athlete would need to have their body chemistry regulation like they are doing to Michael Phelps, to preserve competition.

Oh wait they are not doing that with men who have similar natural advantages, but clearly they should to lower their natural ability to preserve competition.
Every Olympic athlete is tested for performance enhancing drugs.
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Old 15th May 2019, 04:08 PM   #52
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There are indeed other ways, used by different sports, of separating contestants based on membership in groups that usually have different levels of ability. The PGA has a separate "Senior" tour (as well as male-female separation). Children's sports are divided into age groups, sometimes just a year or two wide. Martial sports are divided into weight classes, sometimes just a few pounds wide. Sports that separate a pro level and a college level, like football and track-&-field events and basketball, are even drawing an age line in the lower 20s. How is separating based on sex different from those, and how is a female athletic association supposed to maintain itself as a female athletic association other than by excluding people who aren't women?
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Old 15th May 2019, 04:21 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
How is separating based on sex different from those, and how is a female athletic association supposed to maintain itself as a female athletic association other than by excluding people who aren't women?
Age and weight are relatively easy to measure down to arbitrary levels of accuracy, whereas people with DSD & intersex disorders make drawing a bright line somewhat more contentious.
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:05 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Age and weight are relatively easy to measure down to arbitrary levels of accuracy, whereas people with DSD & intersex disorders make drawing a bright line somewhat more contentious.
Heh. I've spent much of this morning doing SQL work for BMI statistics. Weight measurement is one of those things that seems easy until you really look into it. Calculate the BMI of someone with a leg amputation.

My theory is that pretty much everything is more complicated than it seems.
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:27 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Heh. I've spent much of this morning doing SQL work for BMI statistics. Weight measurement is one of those things that seems easy until you really look into it. Calculate the BMI of someone with a leg amputation.
I didn't make any claims about BMI.
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Old 16th May 2019, 07:00 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well, not everyone identifies as queer. Some lesbians are particularly emphatic about it, or so I've heard. (One example) "Queer" is vaguer, and implies at least the possibility of being open to non-lesbian sex.
But... were the term to mean lesbian in addition to other groups, it wouldn't mean anything of the sort. As it stands it pretty much means nothing.
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Old 16th May 2019, 07:12 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Heh. I've spent much of this morning doing SQL work for BMI statistics. Weight measurement is one of those things that seems easy until you really look into it. Calculate the BMI of someone with a leg amputation.



My theory is that pretty much everything is more complicated than it seems.
I think you're overcomplicating weight measurement. BMI and weight are two separate things. Stop conflating them, and weight measurement becomes a lot simpler. BMI calculation stays complicated, though.

---

Actually, I think BMI calculation is also pretty simple. Its application is more nuanced and limited than most people think, though.
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Old 16th May 2019, 07:49 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Heh. I've spent much of this morning doing SQL work for BMI statistics. Weight measurement is one of those things that seems easy until you really look into it. Calculate the BMI of someone with a leg amputation.

My theory is that pretty much everything is more complicated than it seems.
Makes me think of that legless wrestler. He was really good, but my thought was, he can put all of his absent leg-weight into his upper body, which might be an unfair advantage.

I know there are disadvantages to not having a leg to stand on, but also his opponent cant perform any leg holds.
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Old 16th May 2019, 08:13 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Exactly. Transgender issues have no absolute positions beyond "yes, it is difficult to answer". There is nothing to "debunk" there are true/false. Transgender people have complicated, ambigious problems with their genders by definition of transgenderism. To pretend there even exists a way to package it neatly into a series of true/false statements is plain dumb.

McHrozni
Thank you for the very definition of special pleading.

I remember when things like that were frowned upon here.
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Old 16th May 2019, 08:17 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Age and weight are relatively easy to measure down to arbitrary levels of accuracy, whereas people with DSD & intersex disorders make drawing a bright line somewhat more contentious.
No, it hurts people's feelings. It's actually pretty easy to do if your intent is to create a fair sporting environment. It's only hard if your intent is to co-opt sport as performance art for social justice.
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Old 16th May 2019, 02:38 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
It's actually pretty easy to do if your intent is to create a fair sporting environment.
Okay then, show us how it's done.
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Old 16th May 2019, 04:27 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think you're overcomplicating weight measurement. BMI and weight are two separate things. Stop conflating them, and weight measurement becomes a lot simpler. BMI calculation stays complicated, though.

---

Actually, I think BMI calculation is also pretty simple. Its application is more nuanced and limited than most people think, though.
Monkey's point is that using weight as a proxy for ability/strength is problematic.

I'll use myself as an example. I've weighed between 235 to 315 pounds through my adult life. That's a rather large swing, correct? To simplify things I'll use upper body metrics as I'm an extreme outlier for leg strength. When I was 235 lbs my max on incline press was 320 lbs. That's about 3 standard deviations more than the average starting weight lifter. Now, when I was 315 lbs my max incline press? 280 lbs. (My current at @290 lbs is 300 for completeness).

Now which metric should be used to determine who it is most safe for me to compete against? In college style wrestling, all those versions of me would be in different categories (technically two of those three are over the weight limit of 276). In various martial arts, I've gone against people from 90 to only-the-floor-mat knows lbs. Was that 'safe'? The lightest version of me was also the physically strongest.

tl;dr Weight classes are not as simple or as good a proxy as many people believe they are.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:31 PM   #63
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Old 17th May 2019, 10:01 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
tl;dr Weight classes are not as simple or as good a proxy as many people believe they are.
For professional sports, weight classes are pretty good. The reason is that at the top of the field, everyone is likely to be fairly near the maximum of human potential, and humans have the potential to be stronger at a heavier body weight (up to a point, of course). In your personal example, when you were heavier and weaker you were significantly farther away from the maximum potential of someone at that weight than you were when you were lighter and stronger. Supposing the lighter and stronger version of yourself was capable of competing near the top of the field, the heavier and weaker version would not be.

In amateur leagues that gets complicated because you can mix vast ranges of athletic ability and skill together, so as you suggest weight classes aren't as good a guide (but they're not useless even there), but they work very well at the top.
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Old 18th May 2019, 05:57 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For professional sports, weight classes are pretty good. The reason is that at the top of the field, everyone is likely to be fairly near the maximum of human potential, and humans have the potential to be stronger at a heavier body weight (up to a point, of course). In your personal example, when you were heavier and weaker you were significantly farther away from the maximum potential of someone at that weight than you were when you were lighter and stronger. Supposing the lighter and stronger version of yourself was capable of competing near the top of the field, the heavier and weaker version would not be.

In amateur leagues that gets complicated because you can mix vast ranges of athletic ability and skill together, so as you suggest weight classes aren't as good a guide (but they're not useless even there), but they work very well at the top.
Weight classes are dumb. I have long proposed getting rid of things like that to simplify events.

There were 15 Olympic medals for weightlifting. There should only be one.

There were 8 medals for swimming 100 meters. There should be only one.
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Old 18th May 2019, 06:23 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Weight classes are dumb. I have long proposed getting rid of things like that to simplify events.

There were 15 Olympic medals for weightlifting. There should only be one.

There were 8 medals for swimming 100 meters. There should be only one.

I skipped to the end of the thread. So I gather the ACA denounced Rationality Rules because Olympic swimmers use different strokes. How peculiar.
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Old 19th May 2019, 12:26 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There were 8 medals for swimming 100 meters. There should be only one.
Plus you've still got the 100 meter sprint as well. That should get folded into the swimming medals too. Anyone who jumps into the water instead of just running beside the pool is wasting effort. The medal for hurdles should also be eliminated on similar grounds.

With respect to combat sports we should not only get rid of weight classes but also styles, collapse them all into a single vale tudo event. Probably best to make it to the death in order to avoid arbitrary outcomes.
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Old 19th May 2019, 07:25 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Plus you've still got the 100 meter sprint as well. That should get folded into the swimming medals too. Anyone who jumps into the water instead of just running beside the pool is wasting effort. The medal for hurdles should also be eliminated on similar grounds.

With respect to combat sports we should not only get rid of weight classes but also styles, collapse them all into a single vale tudo event. Probably best to make it to the death in order to avoid arbitrary outcomes.
I agree. I counted something like 50 medals associated with all the combat sports yesterday.
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Old 20th May 2019, 02:33 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Thank you for the very definition of special pleading.
Special pleading is a form of fallacious argument that involves an attempt to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception.

In order for your argument to work you first have to assume just about any question can be answered as a true or false. This is bogus. There are a few questions that can be answered in that way, but the overwhelming majority in our universe can not. In just about every instance slightly deeper insight requires an asterix at least.

Example: Earth revolves around the Sun.

Status: True ... but. If you want to be exact it revolves around the center of mass of the Earth-Sun system, which is within the boundries of the Sun. The whole thing is further complicated by the gravitational effects of the Moon, the rest of the Solar system, the rest of the galaxy and the rest of the universe, in that order. You can further break down the effects of individual components of each of those. The order is true most of the timeit can be altered slightly from time to time in the time scales of the universe. The statement can be considered as true, but it is not the whole truth.

See? True/false doesn't work with something as easy and as obvious as whether or not Earth revolves around the Sun. And you think it should, by default, apply to something as fluid as gender in people having issues with their gender, no less?

Um, thank you for the very definition of a straw man, I guess. I think we're still frowning down on that one here.

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Old 20th May 2019, 02:35 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Organized atheist groups are as annoying as organized religions.
There are a shed load less of them, but of the few that exist, I tend to agree.
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Old 20th May 2019, 02:44 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For professional sports, weight classes are pretty good. The reason is that at the top of the field, everyone is likely to be fairly near the maximum of human potential, and humans have the potential to be stronger at a heavier body weight (up to a point, of course). In your personal example, when you were heavier and weaker you were significantly farther away from the maximum potential of someone at that weight than you were when you were lighter and stronger. Supposing the lighter and stronger version of yourself was capable of competing near the top of the field, the heavier and weaker version would not be.

In amateur leagues that gets complicated because you can mix vast ranges of athletic ability and skill together, so as you suggest weight classes aren't as good a guide (but they're not useless even there), but they work very well at the top.
Depends on the sport.

Rugby at under 13s can get very ugly without a standard 2-3 weight group separation.
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Old 20th May 2019, 02:58 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
"LGBTQIA+"

Am I the only one who found it slightly humorous when they gave up on adding more letters and just chucked a + on the end?
Only one "Q", I see. Last time I saw what purported to be the full set it had two (one for "questioning"). What's the threshold for inclusion? Is it like demonstration sports in the Olympics? Can letters get relegated?

If you're going to have a "+" why not just trim the list down to as few letters as you need to indicate which list you mean?
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:23 AM   #73
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Apology video posted

https://youtu.be/BK4Lg2prp0E

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Old 21st May 2019, 07:31 AM   #74
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Mostly rehashing what he already said before, still no sign of any actual mistakes in the original
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Old 21st May 2019, 07:36 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Mostly rehashing what he already said before, still no sign of any actual mistakes in the original
Prediction: Forthcoming correction video will make claims about how HRT (perfectly?) levels the playing field.
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Old 21st May 2019, 08:25 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I agree. I counted something like 50 medals associated with all the combat sports yesterday.
To be serious for a moment: different rules sets are actually very useful for training the different aspects of martial arts. There's a reason that MMA fighters still train wrestling separate from muay thai, for instance (though they do also do MMA training as well). When I was training BJJ I also did separate wrestling sessions because if you want to get good at wrestling you need to put time into training take downs separate from training BJJ all around.

Does that mean that we should have competitions within each of those specific disciplines? I guess that depends on what you think the purpose of competitive sports is, but personally I like to watch world class wrestlers compete at wrestling even though I also like to watch BJJ competitions, boxing matches, and MMA fights.
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Old 29th May 2019, 06:01 AM   #77
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x9-Y9RpqBY

Correction video is up. It includes changes on a couple of technical points about biochemistry, which don't rationally affect any overall conclusions, so he didn't change any of those. The biological fact in the end is still that "transwomen" have athletic advantages over women, so he sticks to that. The sensible sports-management conclusion in the end is still that athletic organizations that need to exclude non-women from women's sports are free to choose whatever standard of how to do so that they want, so he sticks to that. His apologizing is restricted to those obscure biological details themselves and some insensitivity in how he said some things such as that women's sports would be harmed by having too many "transwomen" in it.

The more interesting & dramatic angle on this whole thing now is not about him anymore. It's about another atheist YouTuber (who's shifted to social issues in the last few years) with a channel called "Essence Of Thought" who's been lashing out at everybody else in the atheist YouTube community who doesn't want to burn Rationality Rules at the stake, full of paranoid delusional accusations that suddenly they're all trans-haters because he's a trans-hater. One of EoT's targets recently posted a response to his accusations which is probably her longest video by a wide margin.

I've heard nothing from ACA since the original denouncement. They probably don't want to be seen reversing themselves, but don't want to call more attention to themselves by continuing to carry on about it like EoT.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 08:59 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I've heard nothing from ACA since the original denouncement. They probably don't want to be seen reversing themselves, but don't want to call more attention to themselves by continuing to carry on about it like EoT.

Quite a few recent developments to this thread, but (as far as I can tell) most of it is going down on YouTube.


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE



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I AGREE



If anyone knows of a readable summary, Id be happy to see it.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:53 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post

The more interesting & dramatic angle on this whole thing now is not about him anymore. It's about another atheist YouTuber (who's shifted to social issues in the last few years) with a channel called "Essence Of Thought" who's been lashing out at everybody else in the atheist YouTube community who doesn't want to burn Rationality Rules at the stake, full of paranoid delusional accusations that suddenly they're all trans-haters because he's a trans-hater. One of EoT's targets recently posted a response to his accusations which is probably her longest video by a wide margin.

I've heard nothing from ACA since the original denouncement. They probably don't want to be seen reversing themselves, but don't want to call more attention to themselves by continuing to carry on about it like EoT.
To be fair, EOT has also released several response videos detailing the errors in Woodford's videos, and the dishonest way he's been handling the whole mess. I haven't paid any attention to this situation outside of the videos focused on the actual arguments/science, so I don't know how messy the gossip is (nor do I care), and I'll grant that EOT has probably gone a little too gung ho in the pushback, but their videos also do good job at rebutting many of Woodford's points, with references included. I don't have any kind of stake in this "debate," (as far a I'm concerned, it's probably too complicated to know what's "right" at the moment and in general, I just don't care enough about sports to be invested; hell, I don't even particularly like any of the branded atheist/rational youtubers) and couldn't give any less of a crap about gossip, the ACA, or the "atheist" community, but if this is supposed to be a discussion about whether or not Woodford was making good, rational arguments, I thought it was worth mentioning that EOT hasn't just been responding with histrionics; they've also put out well-sourced rebuttals that people interested in the issue should probably watch to get a better idea of the science behind the issue and whether or not Woodford was actually "right," or whether he should be criticized.

Last edited by ArchSas; 22nd July 2019 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 01:12 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
To be fair, EOT has also released several response videos detailing the errors in Woodford's videos, and the dishonest way he's been handling the whole mess. I haven't paid any attention to this situation outside of the videos focused on the actual arguments/science, so I don't know how messy the gossip is (nor do I care), and I'll grant that EOT has probably gone a little too gung ho in the pushback, but their videos also do good job at rebutting many of Woodford's points, with references included. I don't have any kind of stake in this "debate," (as far a I'm concerned, it's probably too complicated to know what's "right" at the moment and in general, I just don't care enough about sports to be invested; hell, I don't even particularly like any of the branded atheist/rational youtubers) and couldn't give any less of a crap about gossip, the ACA, or the "atheist" community, but if this is supposed to be a discussion about whether or not Woodford was making good, rational arguments, I thought it was worth mentioning that EOT hasn't just been responding with histrionics; they've also put out well-sourced rebuttals that people interested in the issue should probably watch to get a better idea of the science behind the issue and whether or not Woodford was actually "right," or whether he should be criticized.
I haven't paid super close attention, but noelplum on youtube (who does care about sports and this particular debate) has made several videos on the topic both in general and surrounding this drama. I'll link the ones I recall below for those interested in counterpoints (from someone who can point out the misinfo and misunderstanding of EoT).




Redefining Womens Sport: Solving the Gender Conundrum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLtm3o704RA

ACA Denouncing Rationality Rules is Total Bulls**t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVUSh-V_VeM

Why I Don't Expect Trans Women to Dominate Women's Sport
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giBu5V4gqPw

Trans-Women in Sport: Reviewing the Science
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwFZBG_ts4k

Explaining the Caster Semenya Situation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsqfoEr4zQM

Essence of Thought Debunked!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnfWxp236Kk



As basically always, I think he does a fair job steel-manning arguments, assessing the evidence from multiple angles and proposes solutions rather than isolated cherry picked bickering.
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