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Old 23rd July 2019, 08:10 AM   #81
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I haven't paid super close attention, but noelplum on youtube (who does care about sports and this particular debate) has made several videos on the topic both in general and surrounding this drama.
Good links, thanks.

Seems to me Jim does a fairly decent job of handling these difficult issues with reason, humanism, and tact. Others say he's a raging 'phobe who deserves no place in polite society. I'm sure there is plenty of wiggle room between those two positions, but those are what I've typically encountered.

I'm really having trouble seeing how it benefits the ACA (or really any atheist community) to dive into these complex social issues. It's not like they are being called as subject matter experts.

“Hello, Atheist Community of Austin? This is the Olympic Committee. We have some questions as to how best to maintain a separate league just for people who have never experienced the virilizing effects of endogenous androgens. Yes, we'll hold.”
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Last edited by d4m10n; 23rd July 2019 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 08:24 AM   #82
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Maybe this is my cynicism - and I'm hardly the first to make such a claim - but I feel like there's a brand of social justice types that will stick to whatever groups they can and demand it molds to their preferences. Atheism as a position is still marginalized in some sense in north america, and so atheist groups (in my experience at university, at least) tend to be "safe spaces" and use similar terminology. They also (from my experience) tend to host plenty of events completely unrelated to religion (for example sex ed). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but since these groups tend to be small it feels like they are easy to "Take over" for lack of a better word. Not that the ACA is akin to a small university group.

I find it fascinating that Dillahunty is now being branded as a transphobe.

This whole debacle reminded me that TAE always had their youtube comment section disabled. I asked Dillahunty why this was years ago, lamenting that it prevents discussion (not all of which is "low quality" - even on youtube) and he said that I could always join the blogs and post there.

1) This is a lot of effort for commenting on something that may even be years old
2) The people I want to see the comment and consider/respond/challenge/correct will see it
3) FtB is the last place I want to try to have a discussion on probably any issue lol

edit: not that I bother listening to TAE anymore. Very little of it is new to me these days, so it's not for me. Dillahunty himself produces self-reflecting and well-reasoned video essays, at least.

Last edited by pharphis; 23rd July 2019 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 09:17 AM   #83
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
3) FtB is the last place I want to try to have a discussion on probably any issue lol
Well, now, you've dodged that bullet.

AXP is no longer welcome at FtB.

https://twitter.com/PhilosophyExp/st...892012545?s=19
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Old 23rd July 2019, 10:56 AM   #84
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Oh I know, that's why I remembered their comment system was even through them.

Link doesn't work for me, but that might be because I'm on mobile for once.

edit: removing the mobile prefix of the url fixes it, even though the browser automatically re-adds it. Whatever.

Last edited by pharphis; 23rd July 2019 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 24th July 2019, 10:25 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Well, now, you've dodged that bullet.

AXP is no longer welcome at FtB.

https://twitter.com/PhilosophyExp/st...892012545?s=19
The buffoons at FTB and atheism+ remind me of this old Emo Phillips joke:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
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Old 24th July 2019, 11:06 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Atheism as a position is still marginalized in some sense in north america, and so atheist groups (in my experience at university, at least) tend to be "safe spaces" and use similar terminology. They also (from my experience) tend to host plenty of events completely unrelated to religion (for example sex ed).

American atheism never ceases to amaze me. I think that the pioneers of sex ed in Denmark, Inge and Sten Hegeler (first book, sex ed for young children, 1948), were probably atheists, but I have never heard of sex ed being a part of Scandinavian atheism. (Nor did I ever hear of any problems they might have had with the LGBTQ-etc. community.)
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Old 24th July 2019, 04:45 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
American atheism never ceases to amaze me. I think that the pioneers of sex ed in Denmark, Inge and Sten Hegeler (first book, sex ed for young children, 1948), were probably atheists, but I have never heard of sex ed being a part of Scandinavian atheism. (Nor did I ever hear of any problems they might have had with the LGBTQ-etc. community.)
Again to be clear this might be a 'campus-culture' thing, which is my experience actually being involved with atheist groups. Canadian, too.

But maybe it isn't, and extends more generally to atheist/activist types. I can kind of see the framing that people will use to expand the vision of a group to "include more marginalized people", and I guess it's not crazy to have some element of sex-ed if you're trying to normalize LGBT-etc.

That's just my best guess, though.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:28 AM   #88
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Ho... ly... wow.

I thought this would fade away by now, but it's only gotten bigger, and only turned out to have already been bigger all along in ways I didn't originally know about.

First, what happened a while ago that I didn't know about before: apparently a bunch of members of ACA either quit over this or got fired over it (I guess for going against ACA on their own individual public media accounts or arguing about it with the ACA bigshots at the ACA house). This is the explanation for the disappearance of some old hosts, introduction of a new host or two, increase in frequency of another old host or two, and reduction in the overall host rotation, on their main show, "The Atheist Experience". I'd noticed that happening but never realized it was all connected to this.

Second: while most of those who weren't anti-RR all along have dropped it and moved on to other things, EoT has only gotten deeper and deeper into his obsessive psychotic rage, and managed to drag a few followers into it with him. He hardly ever makes a video or tweet about anything else anymore, and he's expanded his rhetoric from mere accusations of transphobia to accusations that anybody who isn't against RR is a member of his "church", accusations of violence against transsexuals, and demands that the "worthlesses piece(s) of lying ****" he's addressing "do the world a favor and exit it".

Somehow, he and his pack picked somebody who'd only ever made any public statements about RR a couple of times and rather minimally even then, and who also had a history of self-harm going back years before this (Rachel Oates), to focus on the most intently (while claiming to have her "blocked") as if she were guilty of the most egregious horrors of all on her "side". (Jimmy Snow, "Mister Atheist", says he thinks they picked her precisely because of her vulnerability; I suspect it's rather because EoT and/or many of his/her followers have an unstated problem with people who are too good-looking, or at least with women who are.) The stress of constantly being hounded & badgered by so many people over stuff she'd never said or done sent her back into her previous old self-harm mode, and she apparently posted a video or livestream (which I haven't seen but have seen referred to by others) while bleeding from her arms/wrists and crying, to which EoT's response was to post a link to an "article" accusing white women of using fake staged crying as a weapon to keep certain other groups of people down.

When called on this behavior by friends of hers, EoT posted an obviously fake apology which was really an accusation that people had somehow taken "do the world a favor and exit it" the wrong way because of course it didn't mean "do the world a favor and exit it", followed by several more tweets about what a horrible person Rachel was and what horrible things she'd done that meant she should exit the world young & crying & bleeding. To top all that off, he would also soon start gloating that he was the only person who'd called emergency services to try to get help to her while the evil transphobes who were supposed to be on her side did nothing... which nobody knew about because they went to the wrong place... and because several of her friends who had actually been working quietly offline to get her real help had not tried to score PR points for it.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:37 AM   #89
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I haven't paid super close attention, but noelplum on youtube (who does care about sports and this particular debate) has made several videos on the topic both in general and surrounding this drama. I'll link the ones I recall below for those interested in counterpoints (from someone who can point out the misinfo and misunderstanding of EoT).




Redefining Womens Sport: Solving the Gender Conundrum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLtm3o704RA

ACA Denouncing Rationality Rules is Total Bulls**t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVUSh-V_VeM

Why I Don't Expect Trans Women to Dominate Women's Sport
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giBu5V4gqPw

Trans-Women in Sport: Reviewing the Science
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwFZBG_ts4k

Explaining the Caster Semenya Situation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsqfoEr4zQM

Essence of Thought Debunked!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnfWxp236Kk



As basically always, I think he does a fair job steel-manning arguments, assessing the evidence from multiple angles and proposes solutions rather than isolated cherry picked bickering.
New video on point:

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Old 13th September 2019, 10:14 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I remember when the L was added!
What is Atheism +L?
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:52 AM   #91
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I know I am not the brainiest person on the board, but after 3 pages I am still trying to understand what the thread subject is
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Old 14th September 2019, 03:57 AM   #92
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These people are so annoying, I think I'll start believing in God...
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:12 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
These people are so annoying, I think I'll start believing in God...
It's easier to stop believing in atheism. You're probably already there.
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:12 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
What is Atheism +L?
It's Atheism plus LGBT issues, minus the GBT.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I know I am not the brainiest person on the board, but after 3 pages I am still trying to understand what the thread subject is
An atheist group is tearing itself apart over the question of whether it's okay to have a separate sports leagues for people who have never enjoyed the performance enhancing effects of endogenous testosterone.
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:34 AM   #95
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Update from RR on all the drama

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Old 17th September 2019, 03:44 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Update from RR on all the drama

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That was far too measured and reasonable a response. He must be destroyed.
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