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Tags donald trump , Elijah Cummings , racism charges , racism issues

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Old 25th August 2019, 12:52 PM   #281
uke2se
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Why engage with this racist BS? This is the problem with the internet. Any nutty idea gets a platform. This **** used to be relegated to neo-Nazi newsletters and lunatics shouting in the streets.

Don't engage. If anything, discuss the psychology of this kind of thinking. Engaging with it spreads it.
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Old 25th August 2019, 01:17 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Why engage with this racist BS? This is the problem with the internet. Any nutty idea gets a platform. This **** used to be relegated to neo-Nazi newsletters and lunatics shouting in the streets.

Don't engage. If anything, discuss the psychology of this kind of thinking. Engaging with it spreads it.
Go ahead, then. Discuss the psychology.

opcorn:
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Old 25th August 2019, 06:29 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Why engage with this racist BS? This is the problem with the internet. Any nutty idea gets a platform. This **** used to be relegated to neo-Nazi newsletters and lunatics shouting in the streets.

Don't engage. If anything, discuss the psychology of this kind of thinking. Engaging with it spreads it.
I'm watching a Brit series called Years and Years in which a populist politician declares that people should have to pass an IQ test (>70) before being allowed to vote. I'm sympathetic to this in many ways except I'd raise the IQ threshold to at least 100. We'd lose a large percentage of our voters.
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Old 25th August 2019, 06:47 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
FTFY
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Old 25th August 2019, 07:22 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'm watching a Brit series called Years and Years in which a populist politician declares that people should have to pass an IQ test (>70) before being allowed to vote. I'm sympathetic to this in many ways except I'd raise the IQ threshold to at least 100. We'd lose a large percentage of our voters.
...and the legitimacy of the government.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:42 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'm watching a Brit series called Years and Years in which a populist politician declares that people should have to pass an IQ test (>70) before being allowed to vote. I'm sympathetic to this in many ways except I'd raise the IQ threshold to at least 100. We'd lose a large percentage of our voters.
This could possibly be the most racist proposal in the whole thread. I hope that you are kidding.
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Old 26th August 2019, 10:05 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
This could possibly be the most racist proposal in the whole thread. I hope that you are kidding.
Not saying I agree with the proposal (I don't) but how in the name of Hel is an IQ threshold requirement to vote racist?
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Old 26th August 2019, 10:39 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Not saying I agree with the proposal (I don't) but how in the name of Hel is an IQ threshold requirement to vote racist?
I've seen claims that IQ tests are racially biased. Not saying I agree, but if you accept that premise, then it's pretty easy to conclude that using them for the basis of any right would be racially discriminatory.

ETA: the other argument I've seen for this sort of thing would be based on disparate impact. Anything that negatively impacts blacks more than whites is racist, even if it's race neutral on its face.
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Last edited by Ziggurat; 26th August 2019 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 26th August 2019, 10:40 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Not saying I agree with the proposal (I don't) but how in the name of Hel is an IQ threshold requirement to vote racist?
Environmental factors play a large part in IQ scores (which is why IQ scores increase from generation to generation and the IQ test has to be periodically recalibrated to make 100 higher - known as the Flynn Effect), and black people score lower than white people. Poor people also score lower than people who are not poor (in fact, adopting a poor child into a rich household can see an IQ increase of as much as 18 points).

This may not be true forever - the gap between black and white people is closing, as the average IQ of white people is increasing at a much slower rate than the average IQ of black people - but as of now, a policy of excluding people below a certain IQ from voting would disproportionately impact black and poor people.
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Old 26th August 2019, 11:10 AM   #290
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Yeahbut, saying 'some forms of IQ test may show bias along a few criteria, race being one' translating to 'the most racist proposal in the entire thread' ? That's the sort of over the top hyperbole which adds undue difficulty in having a reasoned discussion. It's like literally worse than a thousand Hitlers kicking your puppy.
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Old 26th August 2019, 11:50 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Yeahbut, saying 'some forms of IQ test may show bias along a few criteria, race being one' translating to 'the most racist proposal in the entire thread' ? That's the sort of over the top hyperbole which adds undue difficulty in having a reasoned discussion. It's like literally worse than a thousand Hitlers kicking your puppy.
Oh, sure. I agree. But I presume this isn't the first time you've run into unnecessary hyperbole in the politics forums.
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Old 26th August 2019, 11:59 AM   #292
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Trump vs Elijah: Baltimore, BLM and urban decay

Disenfranchising at least half of black voters seems pretty racist to me. Maybe, in lieu of an IQ test, we could have the county clerk ask a couple of quick literacy test/ general knowledge questions.
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Old 26th August 2019, 12:01 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, sure. I agree. But I presume this isn't the first time you've run into unnecessary hyperbole in the politics forums.
If it wasn't for hyperbole we'd have no bole at all!
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Old 26th August 2019, 12:23 PM   #294
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Math will help. This is where my brain went when I read the suggestion that no one with an IQ < 100 should be allowed to vote.

Charles Murray, co-author of the Bell Curve, says that there is one standard deviation of IQ difference between whites and blacks in the US. Let's be more conservative, and assume "only" half a standard deviation.

So - 1/2 a standard deviation difference in IQ means what? It means that the black vote would be reduced substantially more than the white vote. If whites have a normal distribution around the mean IQ of 100, and the black population is .5 std dev to the left of the mean, that moves around 10% more of the black population to the "can not vote" half of the distribution curve.

Meaning - 50% of whites would lose the right to vote, but 60% of blacks would lose their franchise.

Group Before IQ testing After IQ testing
Voting eligible whites 156.1MM 78.05MM
Voting eligible blacks 27.4MM 10.96MM

Before IQ test requirement = 5.7 white votes per black vote.
After IQ test requirement 7.1 white votes per black vote.

I imagine that the Democratic primary elections, particularly in the Southern states, would look quite different than they do today, with whites have a much greater percentage of that vote.

Last edited by carlitos; 26th August 2019 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 26th August 2019, 12:37 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Environmental factors play a large part in IQ scores (which is why IQ scores increase from generation to generation and the IQ test has to be periodically recalibrated to make 100 higher - known as the Flynn Effect), and black people score lower than white people. Poor people also score lower than people who are not poor (in fact, adopting a poor child into a rich household can see an IQ increase of as much as 18 points).

This may not be true forever - the gap between black and white people is closing, as the average IQ of white people is increasing at a much slower rate than the average IQ of black people - but as of now, a policy of excluding people below a certain IQ from voting would disproportionately impact black and poor people.
I don't think that it's accurate to call it a racist proposal, since that suggests racist intent rather than that it has a side effect that disproportionately disadvantages minorities.
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Old 26th August 2019, 01:47 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Disenfranchising at least half of black voters seems pretty racist to me. Maybe, in lieu of an IQ test, we could have the county clerk ask a couple of quick literacy test/ general knowledge questions.

I'm not the person who proposed the IQ test idea, but I've read a good deal of what he/she has posted on these boards. I'm confident they would pass any reasonable person's definition of 'not racist', and to say that their suggestion was 'possibly the most racist thing in the thread' rather than 'hey, bad idea - here are some unintended consequences' is simplistic thinking, and the sort of knee jerk labeling that unduly stigmatizes people and waters down the term 'racist'. Though that latter part seems to be a hobby of people on social media of late (as a general statement, not pointing fingers at any posters here).

We're not playing 'Name That Tune Bigot'. The first person to press the <RACIST> button in a conversation doesn't win any prizes, or even a copy of the home game.
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Old 26th August 2019, 01:49 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Math will help. This is where my brain went when I read the suggestion that no one with an IQ < 100 should be allowed to vote.

Charles Murray, co-author of the Bell Curve, says that there is one standard deviation of IQ difference between whites and blacks in the US. Let's be more conservative, and assume "only" half a standard deviation.

So - 1/2 a standard deviation difference in IQ means what? It means that the black vote would be reduced substantially more than the white vote. If whites have a normal distribution around the mean IQ of 100, and the black population is .5 std dev to the left of the mean, that moves around 10% more of the black population to the "can not vote" half of the distribution curve.

Meaning - 50% of whites would lose the right to vote, but 60% of blacks would lose their franchise.

Group Before IQ testing After IQ testing
Voting eligible whites 156.1MM 78.05MM
Voting eligible blacks 27.4MM 10.96MM

Before IQ test requirement = 5.7 white votes per black vote.
After IQ test requirement 7.1 white votes per black vote.

I imagine that the Democratic primary elections, particularly in the Southern states, would look quite different than they do today, with whites have a much greater percentage of that vote.

That's interesting background info, and worth a later read (at least to me). Personally would much rather see info given out rather than tossing out a label/accusation of some form of bigotry and nothing else.
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Old 26th August 2019, 02:00 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I don't think that it's accurate to call it a racist proposal, since that suggests racist intent rather than that it has a side effect that disproportionately disadvantages minorities.
If such a law was passed, the "side effect" would be the intent of those supporting and passing it. For more illustration of this concept, see Voter ID laws, voting during work hours on a weekday, etc.


Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
I'm not the person who proposed the IQ test idea, but I've read a good deal of what he/she has posted on these boards. I'm confident they would pass any reasonable person's definition of 'not racist', and to say that their suggestion was 'possibly the most racist thing in the thread' rather than 'hey, bad idea - here are some unintended consequences' is simplistic thinking, and the sort of knee jerk labeling that unduly stigmatizes people and waters down the term 'racist'. Though that latter part seems to be a hobby of people on social media of late (as a general statement, not pointing fingers at any posters here).

We're not playing 'Name That Tune Bigot'. The first person to press the <RACIST> button in a conversation doesn't win any prizes, or even a copy of the home game.
If that's what you took away from my post, then clearly I should have been more artful in my phrasing. You're talking about the poster and I'm talking about the idea proposed. I'm not calling anyone any names here.
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Old 26th August 2019, 02:10 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Disenfranchising at least half of black voters seems pretty racist to me.
The proposal was to disenfranchise half of white voters too. And disparate impact, while it may be reason to avoid doing something, is still not itself evidence of racism.

Quote:
Maybe, in lieu of an IQ test, we could have the county clerk ask a couple of quick literacy test/ general knowledge questions.
Aside from the race-independent unconstitutionality of such practices, the race problem with them is that they could be applied arbitrarily and capriciously. Clerks could and did apply radically different standards to different applicants based on race. The double standard was the whole point of the exercise, and a necessary component of successfully disenfranchising blacks en masse. That double standard wouldn't be a problem with a standardized test that was given and evaluated in an objective and consistent manner, as actual IQ tests can be. Such a test would still be unconstitutional, and there are other reasons one might object, but it really isn't a fair comparison.
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Old 26th August 2019, 02:14 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
If such a law was passed, the "side effect" would be the intent of those supporting and passing it. For more illustration of this concept, see Voter ID laws, voting during work hours on a weekday, etc.
It was Stacy who brought up the proposal, so when you called it racist, it appears as if her support of the proposal is racist.
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Old 26th August 2019, 02:29 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
<...>
If that's what you took away from my post, then clearly I should have been more artful in my phrasing. You're talking about the poster and I'm talking about the idea proposed. I'm not calling anyone any names here.
This was the full text of the post I replied to : "This could possibly be the most racist proposal in the whole thread. I hope that you are kidding."

If the story is now going to be "I wasn't saying you were racist, just that your proposal was the most racist thing in a thread that's had invocations of 'The Late Obama Era' and suggestions that the Conan stories were a good roadmap for us today" ... well, that's the sort of equivocation I'd expect to see in FMF.

And that aside, unintended side effects do not a racist proposal make.

Edit to add : since it's right from a thread running next to this one, here's an example of a racist proposal : “Keep Marysville a white community as much as possible,”. That's a world of difference from the bit up-thread about having an IQ test to vote, and chucking both together under the same umbrella benefits no one.

Last edited by Joe Random; 26th August 2019 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 26th August 2019, 02:34 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, sure. I agree. But I presume this isn't the first time you've run into unnecessary hyperbole in the politics forums.
Yes, which is why I stay in read-only mode most of the time.
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Old 26th August 2019, 02:41 PM   #303
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We are posting on a forum that literally has a rule about attacking the argument, not the arguer. I'm still not calling anyone, anywhere a racist.

And with that I'm taking another break from the forum. Jesus.
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Old 26th August 2019, 03:28 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
We are posting on a forum that literally has a rule about attacking the argument, not the arguer. I'm still not calling anyone, anywhere a racist.

And with that I'm taking another break from the forum. Jesus.
I genuinely didn't think you meant to call Stacy a racist. I just thought that the wording you chose suggested that Stacy's support for this proposal (which would have the negative effects you mentioned, I think) was racist.

In other words, I agree with the substance of your response, but thought that it would be prudent to change the presentation.
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Old 27th August 2019, 01:24 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Yeahbut, saying 'some forms of IQ test may show bias along a few criteria, race being one' translating to 'the most racist proposal in the entire thread' ? That's the sort of over the top hyperbole which adds undue difficulty in having a reasoned discussion. It's like literally worse than a thousand Hitlers kicking your puppy.
I didn't say it was the most racist in the entire thread, I answered your question of what having a cut-off point for IQ scores had to do with race. The answer is that because IQ tests are influenced by environmental factors black people score lower than white people by a not insignificant margin and this barrier to voting would therefore be discriminatory against black people.
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Old 27th August 2019, 05:50 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I didn't say it was the most racist in the entire thread, I answered your question of what having a cut-off point for IQ scores had to do with race. The answer is that because IQ tests are influenced by environmental factors black people score lower than white people by a not insignificant margin and this barrier to voting would therefore be discriminatory against black people.
Yours wasn't the post I was directing the bit you quoted at. I was directing it at the one which actually said ' ... might be the most <BINGO> idea ...'.
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:04 PM   #307
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Let's put it this way - Radley Balko i well worth listening to. He's not the *only* voice on overpolicing (I'm personally fond of Michael Wood Jr.), but he's a significant voice.

And of course, anyone who cited Heather Mac Donald is a goofball.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:04 AM   #308
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The clearance rate for murder

Another issue that is not often discussed regarding crime in our large urban centers is the clearance rate for murders and other crimes. Of the total number of crimes committed what percentage end in an arrest or some form of legal action.

The decline in the clearance rate for homicides, like many other negative social trends, occurred in the 1960s. In 1965 the clearance rate for murder was 83 percent, by 1990 it was down to 65%. There was a drop in the murder rate in 1990s, but the clearance rate did not improve. By 2017 it was under 60%. However bad the number is nationally, it is an absolute disaster in our Democratic controlled cities.

Now you would think that with our growing surveillance state society and better methods for solving crimes that the clearance rate would be going up. But the 'Stop Snitchin' and 'Stitches for snitches' culture has taken over much of our urban areas.

Chicago - In 2017, the police solved 114 of the 650 murders that occurred in that same year — just 17.5 percent, according to a Chicago Sun-Times analysis of police data. Note: This was an all-time low for the city.

Baltimore - The homicide clearance rate in 2018 was 43.4 percent. That’s down from 51.5 percent in 2017, but up from 38.7 percent in 2016. Note: The clearance rate for Baltimore is somewhat higher as many cases are "closed by exception", in that the suspect himself is murdered.

Detroit - The true numbers are truly horrible. Of 291 incidents of murder last year (304 victims in all), only 51 arrests were made. That is a clearance rate of 18 percent -- about one-quarter of the national average -- and one of the lowest on record. Even in the bad old days of Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, the clearance rate was 28 percent. That means at least 240 murderers got away with it in 2016, alone. And, remember, these are the numbers reported voluntarily by the DPD to the state, which sends them on to the FBI.

All of this represents the growing dysfunction and banana republic character of American society since the 1960s. These are the kind of numbers you would expect from a backward, incompetently administered third world country. Well, that is much of America today.

Reminder: It is a political truism that the longer a city, state or county is governed by the Democratic Left the more closely it will resemble a garbage dump.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:44 AM   #309
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In what I'm sure is a total coincidence, white supremacist Steve Sailer recently posted an article about this same topic on the The Unz Review, an "alternative" media website run by a holocaust denier.
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Old 8th September 2019, 10:52 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post

Reminder: It is a political truism that the longer a city, state or county is governed by the Democratic Left the more closely it will resemble a garbage dump.
What is your solution, assuming any of this may be true?
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Old 8th September 2019, 10:59 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
What is your solution, assuming any of this may be true?
White supremacists don't have any solutions, because they're the cause of the problems.

Step one would be for them to treat people equally regardless of skin color - but they can't do that.
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Old 8th September 2019, 11:11 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
What is your solution, assuming any of this may be true?
Well, now that I know the truism, goodbye Greater Boston! Time to head back to Oklahoma, I s'pose.
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:05 PM   #313
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Tanabear,
That some urban centers become "garbage dumps" is the result of several factors. One is disenfranchisement of some fraction of the populace. As we all know, keep people down and they will tend to be given to spitefulness, lawlessness and violence.

We see something of the same now occurring among the greater populace of the US. The growing wealth disparity in general, and whites perceiving their privelege being eroded by the browning of the country, have led some 40% of them to commit their own act of spite in electing to the highest office a known-beforehand disaster. In a way, they are turning the *country* into a "garbage dump."

To keep supporting this state of affairs is truly to be nihilistic.
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:20 PM   #314
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You want to see "garbage dumps" I could show you a picture of the town I grew up in in rural Iowa.

The only thing that prevents it from looking as bad as the city is the fact that there are fewer than 1000 people who live there. Trash? Yeah. Run down buildings? Totally. Businesses? Very few.

I don't know if the crappiness has always been there, or if I just didn't notice it as a kid.
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Old 8th September 2019, 03:56 PM   #315
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Murder clearance rates are a problem throughout the US. Cherry picking rates on individual cities is pure projection.
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Old 8th September 2019, 05:46 PM   #316
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I notice that Boston, which hasn't had a Republican (or any non-Democratic) mayor since 1934, has a lower violent crime rate than Oklahoma City, which has had a Republican mayor since 1987. Boston has 7.03 violent crimes per 1000 people, OKC has 7.95. Maybe I shouldn't go back to Oklahoma City after all. (The result is even worse for OKC if you include property crimes.)

I couldn't find how the crime rates for the two cities compare over time. Comparing just two cities is, of course, not scientific, but I chose two cities in which I've lived. I've lived in Pittsburgh too. It's reliably Democratic and has less violent crime than Boston.

But I reckon all of us but one knew that crime is not tightly tied to mayoral politics.
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Old 8th September 2019, 09:09 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Another issue that is not often discussed regarding crime in our large urban centers is the clearance rate for murders and other crimes. Of the total number of crimes committed what percentage end in an arrest or some form of legal action.

The decline in the clearance rate for homicides, like many other negative social trends, occurred in the 1960s. In 1965 the clearance rate for murder was 83 percent, by 1990 it was down to 65%. There was a drop in the murder rate in 1990s, but the clearance rate did not improve. By 2017 it was under 60%. However bad the number is nationally, it is an absolute disaster in our Democratic controlled cities.

Now you would think that with our growing surveillance state society and better methods for solving crimes that the clearance rate would be going up. But the 'Stop Snitchin' and 'Stitches for snitches' culture has taken over much of our urban areas.

Chicago - In 2017, the police solved 114 of the 650 murders that occurred in that same year — just 17.5 percent, according to a Chicago Sun-Times analysis of police data. Note: This was an all-time low for the city.

Baltimore - The homicide clearance rate in 2018 was 43.4 percent. That’s down from 51.5 percent in 2017, but up from 38.7 percent in 2016. Note: The clearance rate for Baltimore is somewhat higher as many cases are "closed by exception", in that the suspect himself is murdered.

Detroit - The true numbers are truly horrible. Of 291 incidents of murder last year (304 victims in all), only 51 arrests were made. That is a clearance rate of 18 percent -- about one-quarter of the national average -- and one of the lowest on record. Even in the bad old days of Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, the clearance rate was 28 percent. That means at least 240 murderers got away with it in 2016, alone. And, remember, these are the numbers reported voluntarily by the DPD to the state, which sends them on to the FBI.

All of this represents the growing dysfunction and banana republic character of American society since the 1960s. These are the kind of numbers you would expect from a backward, incompetently administered third world country. Well, that is much of America today.

Reminder: It is a political truism that the longer a city, state or county is governed by the Democratic Left the more closely it will resemble a garbage dump.

Oh dear, you still don't get it do you?

The type of crime and violence you are talking about (by a specific demographic) is a RESULT of the way they are treated. The history of the USA is replete with examples of this, going right back to how the British treated Colonial Americans, how white settlers treated Native Americans, how Southern white farmers treated blacks.

If you oppress, stigmatize and discriminate against a group of people hard enough and for long enough, sooner or later they are going to get pissed off with the way they are being treated, and they will rise up and do something about it.
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Old 8th September 2019, 09:25 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh dear, you still don't get it do you?

The type of crime and violence you are talking about (by a specific demographic) is a RESULT of the way they are treated. The history of the USA is replete with examples of this, going right back to how the British treated Colonial Americans, how white settlers treated Native Americans, how Southern white farmers treated blacks.

If you oppress, stigmatize and discriminate against a group of people hard enough and for long enough, sooner or later they are going to get pissed off with the way they are being treated, and they will rise up and do something about it.
By killing other black people?
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:15 AM   #319
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Reminder: It is a political truism that the longer a city, state or county is governed by the Democratic Left the more closely it will resemble a garbage dump.
it's those "garbage dumps" that generate all the federal income that is then send to bankrupt Red States to keep them afloat.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:56 AM   #320
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Truism.......I think he meant Trumpism, which is the same made-up nonsense.
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