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Old 31st August 2019, 12:11 PM   #121
theprestige
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Then they are not actual Catholics. Yes, yes, somebody's going to say "no true Scotsman!" but the thing is it's not a fallacy in this context; Catholicism requires its adherents to believe the official teachings of the Church in order to be Catholic. It's like being a McDonald's francisee: you aren't allowed to deviate from the appointed menu or decorate however you please, and if you can't handle that you have to start your own restaurant and god help you if you try to call it McDonald's!
Maybe. But you're not an inquisitor, charged with rooting out heresy and excommunicating the heretic. You don't really have standing to say who is and isn't Catholic.
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Old 31st August 2019, 12:17 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Maybe. But you're not an inquisitor, charged with rooting out heresy and excommunicating the heretic. You don't really have standing to say who is and isn't Catholic.
Don't need to, the RCC gives you a checklist.
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Old 31st August 2019, 12:35 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Catholicism is officially against homosexuality and YEC both, and it's the largest denomination of Christianity. One benefit of having an evil undemocratic theocratic hierarchy is that you don't need to do surveys to find out what that religion's beliefs are.
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Then they are not actual Catholics. Yes, yes, somebody's going to say "no true Scotsman!" but the thing is it's not a fallacy in this context; Catholicism requires its adherents to believe the official teachings of the Church in order to be Catholic.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don't need to, the RCC gives you a checklist.

How do you know that Catholicism is the largest denomination then? The abortion issue eliminates half of Catholics as actual Catholics according to you two. Other issues will eliminate more.
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Old 31st August 2019, 01:24 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
How do you know that Catholicism is the largest denomination then? The abortion issue eliminates half of Catholics as actual Catholics according to you two. Other issues will eliminate more.
Nope, there is nothing in being a RCer that means you can't sin.
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Old 31st August 2019, 01:33 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope, there is nothing in being a RCer that means you can't sin.
We're talking about who is and isn't a Catholic and you said the RCC provides a checklist. Is everyone who claims to be a Catholic actually Catholic?
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Old 31st August 2019, 01:59 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
We're talking about who is and isn't a Catholic and you said the RCC provides a checklist. Is everyone who claims to be a Catholic actually Catholic?
I'm assuming you mean Roman Catholics (there are many catholic churches such as the church of England)?

If so then they like to grab them when they are young, bit of water splashed on your forehead as part of a spell and lo and behold you are a RC.
ETA: and then you can go to Vatican.org to check what you belive in or go to hell for eternity, it's your choice.
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Old 31st August 2019, 02:55 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Then they are not actual Catholics. Yes, yes, somebody's going to say "no true Scotsman!" but the thing is it's not a fallacy in this context; Catholicism requires its adherents to believe the official teachings of the Church in order to be Catholic. It's like being a McDonald's francisee: you aren't allowed to deviate from the appointed menu or decorate however you please, and if you can't handle that you have to start your own restaurant and god help you if you try to call it McDonald's!
Actually though I do think a significant enough number of Catholics are "old earth" creationists to invalidate the original statement, and was going to point that out before you ninjaed me on that, it should also be pointed out that although a more science-friendly age is the official stand of the Church, it is not dogma, and therefore Catholics are not required to agree on the age of the earth.
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Old 31st August 2019, 08:44 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Genes tend to be male, whereas Jeans tend to be female. . .
No wonder the critic of my Levi’s feel tight.
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Old 1st September 2019, 12:13 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
No wonder the critic of my Levi’s feel tight.
I'm guessing that got autocorrected and you meant "crotch". But it came out better anyhow, somehow.
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Old 1st September 2019, 02:33 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm guessing that got autocorrected and you meant "crotch". But it came out better anyhow, somehow.
I didn't even think of that. I thought perhaps he had a significant other or an overbearing mother who criticized the fit of his jeans. "Honey, you can't wear those out in public, you have a completely flat ass!" or "I didn't raise you to dress obscenely, go back upstairs and put on some pleated slacks, nobody wants to see your devil's pickle."
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Old 1st September 2019, 08:13 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
It's been quite awhile since I've sat down and read the Bible, but I have read the whole thing in the past (and may I say, what a slog, overall). My question is - does the Bible actually comment on, or really even mention, lesbians? I know that a man who lieth with another man is an abomination, but did the goat herders have anything to say about lesbians? I don't recall a specification.

Perhaps they couldn't conceive of such a thing as sex without a dong present.
There's only one veiled reference to lesbianism in the Bible, and it's from Romans 1:26.

Quote:
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet
There is context for this, but it doesn't make it any better.
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Old 1st September 2019, 10:32 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There's only one veiled reference to lesbianism in the Bible, and it's from Romans 1:26.

There is context for this, but it doesn't make it any better.
The keyword in the bible is "fornication" (see 1 Corinthians) and that is a big no no whatever the form.
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Old 1st September 2019, 10:43 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The keyword in the bible is "fornication" (see 1 Corinthians) and that is a big no no whatever the form.
Scholars have concluded, based on extensive linguistic analysis, that that's just a misprint and it's actually "formication" that God is against. He absolutely loathes the sensation of ants crawling on his skin, and who can blame him?
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Old 1st September 2019, 11:19 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Scholars have concluded, based on extensive linguistic analysis, that that's just a misprint and it's actually "formication" that God is against. He absolutely loathes the sensation of ants crawling on his skin, and who can blame him?
That word came from the King James version. If you are going to go through the list of bibles in https://www.biblegateway.com/ and read the same passages then you are going to have to change a lot of words.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 12:00 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I didn't even think of that. I thought perhaps he had a significant other or an overbearing mother who criticized the fit of his jeans. "Honey, you can't wear those out in public, you have a completely flat ass!" or "I didn't raise you to dress obscenely, go back upstairs and put on some pleated slacks, nobody wants to see your devil's pickle."
Damn that autocorrect.

My jeans are so tight I have to wear my balls in single file and you can tell what religion I am.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 07:49 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm guessing that got autocorrected and you meant "crotch". But it came out better anyhow, somehow.
I figured it was a new euphemism for something like the male version of "camel toes".
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Old 2nd September 2019, 07:57 AM   #137
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But back to the bazilllion genes that are related to himosexuality, (happy typo) What other problems are they co-related to? Other minor mental variations, like autism, manic-depressive, phobias, sex addiction, personality disorders, chronic overacheivers. Because if it was a physical "disease", we would have known it long since.

Just look at Tragic Moinkey to see my point.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 08:41 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Scholars have concluded, based on extensive linguistic analysis, that that's just a misprint and it's actually "formication" that God is against. He absolutely loathes the sensation of ants crawling on his skin, and who can blame him?
Another typo: celibate should be celebrate.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 08:59 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But back to the bazilllion genes that are related to himosexuality, (happy typo) What other problems are they co-related to? Other minor mental variations, like autism, manic-depressive, phobias, sex addiction, personality disorders, chronic overacheivers. Because if it was a physical "disease", we would have known it long since.

Just look at Tragic Moinkey to see my point.
I'll skip over the implications of the term "other problems" because as I see it being gay is principally a problem in regard to the reaction of some societies to it. As to if the alleles associated with being gay are linked to "other" problems at all: it is quite likely that in one or more combinations they actually have a selective advantage or they would not have remained in the population given the obvious impact of being gay on child bearing. Hypothetically certain combinations of these alleles may confer resistance to some disease, lower blood pressure, enhanced intelligence, etc. Or maybe better clothes shopping skills.

Given the multi-genic nature of the effects of these alleles on sexual orientation, their effects on physical disease would have also been very hard to detect without similarly intense and in depth analysis.

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Old 2nd September 2019, 09:04 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Hypothetically certain combinations of these alleles may confer resistance to some disease, lower blood pressure, enhanced intelligence, etc. Or maybe better clothes shopping skills.

Or may be related to behaviours like the way non-breeding primates will "nursemaid" related children.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 09:13 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Or may be related to behaviours like the way non-breeding primates will "nursemaid" related children.
Yes, I would include this as a positive selective value that aids the reproduction of siblings, cousins, etc.
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Old 4th September 2019, 06:38 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I'll skip over the implications of the term "other problems" because as I see it being gay is principally a problem in regard to the reaction of some societies to it. As to if the alleles associated with being gay are linked to "other" problems at all: it is quite likely that in one or more combinations they actually have a selective advantage or they would not have remained in the population given the obvious impact of being gay on child bearing. Hypothetically certain combinations of these alleles may confer resistance to some disease, lower blood pressure, enhanced intelligence, etc. Or maybe better clothes shopping skills..
The variants would be social- "Sane people never accomplish anything" ! Like the Viking Berserker, or the Warrior Gene, an abnormal personality type can be a benefit to society. Chronic over acheivers, autistics that find their niche. artists (Hollywood?) ....


.
Quote:
Given the multi-genic nature of the effects of these alleles on sexual orientation, their effects on physical disease would have also been very hard to detect without similarly intense and in depth analysis.
Nau, not much physical disease related, except those related to the mind- hypertension? food addiction? Suicide? And yeah, a similar study would show an overlap of the alleles- I bet it was done already. But "Science" is not as open minded as we are here at ISF, and has not publicized the findings. Remember that 23&Me's stated goal was to sell their genetic research to drug companies. So some knowledge is proprietary.

I suspect suicide is rampant. I just got word that an in-law of an in-law botched a suicide attempt. Retired (barely made it, issues) Navy, father of 4, fighting for weeks with his wife over his desired sex change. Tried to hang himself, but posted in Facebook, a "friend" called the cops who cut him down. Oxygen starved, Brain dead. ( I hope he had a donor card.) I never heard of a "suicide gesture" by hanging. Most people get divorces, not hangings.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:00 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Even if you weren't born that way your sexuality probably is still largely if not completely out of your control.
I agree with this. I am firmly in the "It really doesn't matter at all" camp on the question of whether homosexuality is caused by nature or nurture. Not in the sense that I don't think the cause of homosexuality is an interesting scientific topic, but in the sense that it doesn't matter at all as far as how gay people should be treated (same as any body else) in society.

At this point, scientific evidence is pretty inconclusive. However, people should not be discriminated against or ostracized based on whether their intimate partners are of the same gender or a different gender. As long as consenting adults are involved, with whom one chooses to have sex is their business and theirs alone.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:57 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I agree with this. I am firmly in the "It really doesn't matter at all" camp on the question of whether homosexuality is caused by nature or nurture. Not in the sense that I don't think the cause of homosexuality is an interesting scientific topic, but in the sense that it doesn't matter at all as far as how gay people should be treated (same as any body else) in society.

At this point, scientific evidence is pretty inconclusive. However, people should not be discriminated against or ostracized based on whether their intimate partners are of the same gender or a different gender. As long as consenting adults are involved, with whom one chooses to have sex is their business and theirs alone.
It's all about mutual friction of mucous membranes. Beyond that, I suspect you do have a choice, just look at all the Bi's or the gays with wife and kids. And how you make that choice is purely psychological. BUT psychology is a blend of nature & nurture, and that psyche is what makes the choice. So not a conscious choice like soup or salad, the choice was already made. Just like why I weigh 300 lbs. Sure, I can say I can dicks my own potatoes, but then I supersize...
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Old 6th September 2019, 09:11 AM   #145
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Some people here are talking as if homosexuality were a disease and undesirable in nature. Obviously that is a misunderstanding of how evolution works. Evolution is not about every individual of a population being exact replicas of one another. It is about diversity; a range of attributes that allows the overall population to survive. The individuals are all different within certain parameters.

For whatever reason evolution has given the human species a range of sexual behaviours that includes homosexuality, bisexuality, heterosexuality, etc., etc. These behaviours obviously enhance our chances of survival over the long haul, or at least don't impede it.

As a society some of these behaviours are unacceptable because they cause harm to other members, ie.- rape and paedophilia. None of these behaviours are diseases. They are simply the range of behaviours nature has imbued humans with.

The title of this thread is disingenuous by what it left out. The article cited did say that there was "no one gene" responsible for homosexuality but that it was the combination of an unknown but very large number of them. That doesn't mean homosexuality isn't genetic, it just means the OP had an anti-gay agenda they were trying to further.

The deeper question is: Why is it that one human [the OP] can be so hateful toward other humans over a natural human behaviour that has no bearing on their life, or the lives of other members of the human species?
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Old 6th September 2019, 09:48 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
The deeper question is: Why is it that one human [the OP] can be so hateful toward other humans over a natural human behaviour that has no bearing on their life, or the lives of other members of the human species?
Religion, usually.
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Old 6th September 2019, 09:50 AM   #147
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To play devil's advocate it's not necessarily true that homosexuality in some doesn't have bearing on society as a whole. For instance, if you believed it were in the interest of your nation to have a larger rate of births you might conclude that discouraging homosexuality would further that goal by increasing heterosexual unions and thereby lead to more births. I'm not saying that's a sensible means to achieve that goal, but it is an example (from actual history) of rationale behind discouraging homosexuality.
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:04 AM   #148
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Sure if an asteroid hits and kills off 99.999999999999999999999999% of the population and we're left with a Toba Catastrophe level population bottleneck of only a few thousand surviving people... then sure maybe 10% of your surviving men deciding "eeewwww vaginas are gross" might be something the society could reasonably take issue with in some context and applied in some way.

But that's a far cry from applying it in a society where there's enough people stuck on the 405 at any given moment to easily repopulate the planet.
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:12 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sure if an asteroid hits and kills off 99.999999999999999999999999% of the population and we're left with a Toba Catastrophe level population bottleneck of only a few thousand surviving people... then sure maybe 10% of your surviving men deciding "eeewwww vaginas are gross" might be something the society could reasonably take issue with in some context and applied in some way.

But that's a far cry from applying it in a society where there's enough people stuck on the 405 at any given moment to easily repopulate the planet.
I've found that when people talk about the need for increasing the birth rate, they are not talking about "people", but "the right type of people". And the people stuck on the 405 on not likely to all be "the right type of people".
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:28 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sure if an asteroid hits and kills off 99.999999999999999999999999% of the population and we're left with a Toba Catastrophe level population bottleneck of only a few thousand surviving people... then sure maybe 10% of your surviving men deciding "eeewwww vaginas are gross" might be something the society could reasonably take issue with in some context and applied in some way.

But that's a far cry from applying it in a society where there's enough people stuck on the 405 at any given moment to easily repopulate the planet.
I believe I did say I didn't consider it a sensible means to attain a goal, I was merely pointing out that it's not an irrational argument. It was a position held by a couple of the earlier Caesars who thought the patrician class needed boosting. And it could very well be the reason why the ancient Hebrews stuck it into their religion in the first place.
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:43 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I believe I did say I didn't consider it a sensible means to attain a goal, I was merely pointing out that it's not an irrational argument. It was a position held by a couple of the earlier Caesars who thought the patrician class needed boosting. And it could very well be the reason why the ancient Hebrews stuck it into their religion in the first place.
Oh I get that. I was agreeing with you and bouncing off your post, not rebutting it. Sorry, should have been clearer.
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
To play devil's advocate it's not necessarily true that homosexuality in some doesn't have bearing on society as a whole. For instance, if you believed it were in the interest of your nation to have a larger rate of births you might conclude that discouraging homosexuality would further that goal by increasing heterosexual unions and thereby lead to more births. I'm not saying that's a sensible means to achieve that goal, but it is an example (from actual history) of rationale behind discouraging homosexuality.
That a leader, or government, has a complete misunderstanding of what affects birth rates does not change the fact that an individual being gay has no negative impact on society as a whole.

For your example to be true, it would have to also be true that banning homosexuality would automatically turn most homosexuals into heterosexuals who have an uncontrollable desire to reproduce. Of course, that is ridiculous. The lack of reasoning by the leader/government does not change facts, even if it is the wider belief of an ignorant society.

I suspect that every time in history that the reasoning you gave was used in any society it had nothing to do with birth rates and everything to do with bigots legalising discrimination against homosexuals.
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:37 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I suspect that every time in history that the reasoning you gave was used in any society it had nothing to do with birth rates and everything to do with bigots legalising discrimination against homosexuals.
Well of course. Even now in actual real world discourse variations on "Gays are bad because they don't produce children" pop up fairly often.

I've asked multiple times why gays are any harmful to our population growth than single people or post-menopause women and have never gotten anything resembling an answer.
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:39 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
That a leader, or government, has a complete misunderstanding of what affects birth rates does not change the fact that an individual being gay has no negative impact on society as a whole.

For your example to be true, it would have to also be true that banning homosexuality would automatically turn most homosexuals into heterosexuals who have an uncontrollable desire to reproduce. Of course, that is ridiculous. The lack of reasoning by the leader/government does not change facts, even if it is the wider belief of an ignorant society.

I suspect that every time in history that the reasoning you gave was used in any society it had nothing to do with birth rates and everything to do with bigots legalising discrimination against homosexuals.
I think from a historical point, you're likely right.

But I can imagine (if not find in history) a situation in which a population decline would make it convenient to steer people of ambiguous orientation toward reproducing, and even to force people of gay orientation to give it a try. Desires don't have to be uncontrollable, and plenty of people of bi or homosexual orientation have, under social pressure or simply the desire for children, managed to go ahead and do the necessary deed.* But on the other hand, if population decline were to become so dire, I suspect people would do their part anyway. There is, after all, no reproductive reason to be straight in between kids, or after a certain reproductive quota has been filled. From the population standpoint, it only takes once per baby. The rest is recreation, and even in a population crisis it ought to be nobody's business.

*added note: I had somewhere back in the family tree, a great great uncle who was a minister, and defrocked when discovered amorously trysting with a choirboy. He had two kids, having apparently had heterosexual sex twice, and his wife was said to have wondered if there wasn't something missing in that relationship, but being brought up in a repressive, don't-talk-about-sex kind of society, she wasn't sure until after. She also was reported to have remarked to my grandmother, "nobody knows the trouble I've seen, nobody knows.... but Jeee-Zus!"
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Old 6th September 2019, 05:07 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've asked multiple times why gays are any harmful to our population growth than single people or post-menopause women and have never gotten anything resembling an answer.
I think you've gotten a clear answer then.
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Old 6th September 2019, 06:36 PM   #156
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If there was ever a case when people needed to boost the population and decided the best way do it was to be mean to homosexuals then the last thing I would call that thought process is "rational".
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Old 6th September 2019, 06:41 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If there was ever a case when people needed to boost the population and decided the best way do it was to be mean to homosexuals then the last thing I would call that thought process is "rational".
Not everything one disagrees with is irrational. Even stupid things aren't necessarily irrational.

Rational position: Promoting heterosexuality will lead to increased birthrates.
Irrational position: Promoting potato chips will summon alien demonoids who will give us magic glitter ponies.
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Old 6th September 2019, 07:17 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not everything one disagrees with is irrational. Even stupid things aren't necessarily irrational.
I don't recall saying otherwise.

I wasn't calling it irrational because I disagreed with it.

I called it irrational because it is irrational.

Another irrational position is that being mean to gays is a way of promoting heterosexuality.
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:22 PM   #159
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For something to be rational, it has to be something that could reasonably be the result of deliberation on a problem.

"How do we solve A? I know, let's do B."

I am having trouble seeing if the problem is "How do we solve the need to increase our population?". that "I know, let's spend a lot of time and resources being mean to gays" would be even among the top ten best responses.
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Old 7th September 2019, 06:20 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
For something to be rational, it has to be something that could reasonably be the result of deliberation on a problem.

"How do we solve A? I know, let's do B."
It's certainly not a wise, or kind, or decent response. But it is certainly rational: imagine you are in charge of a society. You wish to promote a particular behavior, say, the growing of tomatoes. A certain percentage of the population is already growing tomatoes. Another percentage is growing cucumbers instead. How can you boost the former and reduce the latter? Tax breaks for tomatoes and extra taxes for cucumbers is one way. Criminalize cucumber growing is a more extreme way. Launch a massive public awareness campaign about the evils of cucumber growers, how they are enemies of the state, infiltrating society with foul cucumbery ways to the detriment of the holy tomatoes beloved by the gods is another way. A crazy way, true, but one that has been done repeatedly throughout history although not with vegetables.

You can get rid of a spider in your bathroom by trapping it in a glass, vacuuming it up, squashing it, or detonating powerful explosives. Those are not all equally good responses, but as they all meet the requirement of solving the spider's presence they are not irrational.
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