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Old 7th September 2019, 06:57 AM   #161
Robin
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's certainly not a wise, or kind, or decent response. But it is certainly rational:
You are not reading what I said. Again, I am not saying it is irrational because it is unkind or indecent. I am saying it is irrational because it is irrational.

It is a dumb, ineffective approach to the problem.

Huge amount of poorly directed effort for a negligible result.
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Old 7th September 2019, 07:06 AM   #162
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Yes, but it is Xenophobia. Everybody has that and it is an excellent lever for political purposes.

One side:"We don't like Homosexuals!"
Other side "We don't like Homophobes!"

Or pet owners, abortions, people who wear white after Labor Day...
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Old 7th September 2019, 07:25 AM   #163
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Abortion at least can be reasonably, depending on one's philosophy, viewed as affecting other people. Some pro-lifers genuinely feel that babies are being murdered, and so they get upset about that and want to protect them. (I don't believe that is the true motivation driving every single pro-lifer, but I do believe many truly feel that way.)

Likewise, complaining about pet owners often comes from the perspective of "keep your filthy/dangerous/resource-sucking anthropomorphized creature away from me." Alternatively, it can be seen as enslaving living beings for human amusement.

Wearing white after Labor Day hurts everybody, obviously. That needs no unpacking.

But homosexuality among adults? I just can't see how that can be construed as affecting anybody else. Even if you believe God hates it, let God sort them out when they're dead. Hello?

Yeah, yeah, decaying the moral fabric of society. Yawn. People need to worry more about the moral fabric of their own lives.
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Old 7th September 2019, 07:32 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You are not reading what I said. Again, I am not saying it is irrational because it is unkind or indecent. I am saying it is irrational because it is irrational.



It is a dumb, ineffective approach to the problem.



Huge amount of poorly directed effort for a negligible result.
Rational doesn't mean the best, the only solution and so on it just means it's an internally coherent argument based on a premise that probably has some evidence attached to it. For example:

Society wants more people
Hetrosexuals on average have more children than homosexuals
Increasing the number of hetrosexuals in the population will increase the birthrate

That is rational argument, of course it is carrying quite a bit of baggage with it but so do most rational social policies.

Then one can look how to decrease the number of homosexuals, you may decide that execution would do that, but that would decrease the number of people in society so that would not be a rational approach. You could try to make it so people do not want to identify as homosexual, if you consider it like the policy countries such as the UK had for generations. Now that did work because there was a certain percentage of homosexuals who "hid" in heterosexual relationships and had children who if they hadn't had to hide wouldn't have had children. So adopting such a policy would be rational.
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Old 7th September 2019, 09:05 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Society wants more people
Hetrosexuals on average have more children than homosexuals
Increasing the number of hetrosexuals in the population will increase the birthrate
And being mean to gays increases the number of heterosexuals does it?

How?

Is this that epigenetics thing?

Quote:
Then one can look how to decrease the number of homosexuals
Right. Because homosexuals reduce the number of people in society. For some reason.
Quote:
, you may decide that execution would do that, but that would decrease the number of people in society so that would not be a rational approach. You could try to make it so people do not want to identify as homosexual, if you consider it like the policy countries such as the UK had for generations. Now that did work because there was a certain percentage of homosexuals who "hid" in heterosexual relationships and had children who if they hadn't had to hide wouldn't have had children. So adopting such a policy would be rational.
So let me see if I have this.

They devote a large amount of resources persecuting a group who compose about maybe 2-3% of society in the hope that some percentage of that 2-3% will pretend not to be gay and have children thus massively boosting the number of people in society.

As long as they each have thousands of children.

That is rational? That is internally coherent???

Right.
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Old 7th September 2019, 09:33 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
And being mean to gays increases the number of heterosexuals does it?

How?

Is this that epigenetics thing?


Right. Because homosexuals reduce the number of people in society. For some reason.

So let me see if I have this.

They devote a large amount of resources persecuting a group who compose about maybe 2-3% of society in the hope that some percentage of that 2-3% will pretend not to be gay and have children thus massively boosting the number of people in society.

As long as they each have thousands of children.

That is rational? That is internally coherent???

Right.
Yep it is rational.
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Old 7th September 2019, 10:20 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not everything one disagrees with is irrational. Even stupid things aren't necessarily irrational.

Rational position: Promoting heterosexuality will lead to increased birthrates.
Irrational position: Promoting potato chips will summon alien demonoids who will give us magic glitter ponies.
In regard to the hilighted part: There is a big difference between "promoting heterosexuality" and "legalising discrimination, and violence, against homosexuals." Up until this point we were talking about the latter, not the former. The former one may have some rational behind it but the latter is just bat **** crazy.
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Old 7th September 2019, 10:29 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Society wants more people
Hetrosexuals on average have more children than homosexuals
Increasing the number of hetrosexuals in the population will increase the birthrate
Perhaps, but increasing the number of heterosexuals =/= actively discriminating against homosexuals. The only way discrimination against homosexuals would be rational in the case of a population crisis would be if there was some correlation between the elimination of homosexuality and an increased population. Unless there is, it amounts to the irrational belief that eliminating Jews in Europe would somehow solve all Germany's problems.
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Old 7th September 2019, 10:44 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by That19Guy View Post
Sorry bout it but you weren't "Born This Way"




https://www.livescience.com/no-singl...meone-gay.html

Not at all surprised. The end result of homosexuality produces a repeatable outcome.

Disease.

On a grand scale. And yet we have people arguing for the growth of that and the promulgation of it.
The theory that intrigued me the most is this one. A mother doesn't produce enough testosterone to completely give her male child his proper sexual identity. In gay women, the mother has too much testosterone.
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Old 7th September 2019, 11:15 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
And being mean to gays increases the number of heterosexuals does it?

It doesn't, obviously, but it probably increases the number of closet homosexuals who marry and have children with the opposite sex, thus creating even more victims of homophobia than the homosexuals themselves.

I once used the homophobia of a young Muslim boy against himself in the following way:
'The more gay-bashing you do, the likelier it is that a homosexual will marry your sister to prove to himself, to you and to the other homophobes that he isn't gay, thus making them both unhappy. So the best way to make sure that your sister doesn't marry a homosexual man is to try to make it as uncomplicated as possible for him to be openly gay.'
I managed to confuse him, but I'm not sure that I managed to cure him of his homophobia.
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Old 7th September 2019, 12:22 PM   #171
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I think the rational/irrational issue depends on how wide a lens you look through.

Blowing up a spider in the bathroom with a grenade might be rational in the sense that it addresses the spider problem effectively.

But blowing up the bathroom substitutes an enormous problem for a small one, and in a wider sense that's not very rational. Even if a problem is rational, not every solution to it is.

From the population point of view it might be rational to promote breeding, and even to require people to attempt it (at least one could argue the theory). I don't see any way it would be rational to punish homosexuality for its own sake. It's not rational to care what people do with their naughty bits if it does not impede the need to breed.
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Old 7th September 2019, 04:47 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yep it is rational.
So achieving a negligible effect for a huge effort and use of resources is rational to you?

A new and entirely unfamiliar usage of the world.
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Old 7th September 2019, 04:55 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think the rational/irrational issue depends on how wide a lens you look through.



Blowing up a spider in the bathroom with a grenade might be rational in the sense that it addresses the spider problem effectively.



But blowing up the bathroom substitutes an enormous problem for a small one, and in a wider sense that's not very rational. Even if a problem is rational, not every solution to it is.



From the population point of view it might be rational to promote breeding, and even to require people to attempt it (at least one could argue the theory). I don't see any way it would be rational to punish homosexuality for its own sake. It's not rational to care what people do with their naughty bits if it does not impede the need to breed.
But at least your spider addresses the problem.

The 'be mean to gays' strategy is more like blowing up the neighbour's house in the hope of frightening the spider into moving a couple of inches towards the door when the spider was attempting to go out in any case.
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:05 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
But at least your spider addresses the problem.

The 'be mean to gays' strategy is more like blowing up the neighbour's house in the hope of frightening the spider into moving a couple of inches towards the door when the spider was attempting to go out in any case.
Or like putting a jar over the spider to stop it going outside then blowing up the neighbour's house in the hope of frightening the spider into moving a couple of inches towards the door.

That would certainly raise the suspicion that your real interest was blowing up the neighbour's house.
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:25 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yep it is rational.
And notice that you have just said that a strategy that, in order to be effective, would require homosexuals to have thousands of children each.

By what method do you propose each homosexual would have thousands of children?
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Old 7th September 2019, 06:03 PM   #176
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I am having trouble understanding why people think it is rational to select a strategy which is resource intensive and only has negligible results.

The point is that those resources are unavailable for more effective strategies, so the net effect would be to make the problem you are trying to address worse.
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Old 7th September 2019, 06:13 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So achieving a negligible effect for a huge effort and use of resources is rational to you?

A new and entirely unfamiliar usage of the world.
Is "being mean to gays" a huge use of resources? If we're talking about the rationality it seems to me that measure would be the cost/extra child born or something like that. Cost measured in... dollars?

Really, though, I think the real test of it's rationality is whether or not it works. Tragic Monkey mentioned some times in history when that was the stated intent, but at least with regard to the ancient Roman experiment, my recollection is that the birth rate among patricians didn't go up after their "family values" laws were implemented. I may be misremembering. In which case it may have been rational for them to attempt the experiment at the time before the data was in, but after they ran it and it failed it starts to be less rational to try the same failed solutions in the future.
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Old 7th September 2019, 07:04 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
But homosexuality among adults? I just can't see how that can be construed as affecting anybody else. Even if you believe God hates it, let God sort them out when they're dead. Hello?
When Swedish legislators were debating the merits of decriminalising gay sex, back in the 1940's, the main point of contention was whether homosexuality was an innate trait or partially induced by homosexual experiences.

At this point in time the general consensus of the medical profession was that it was a psychological disorder, because it was seen as contrary to the "natural" heterosexual desire to mate and reproduce with members of the opposite sex.

Had it mostly been a "learned" behaviour it would have seen as more reasonable to treat gay sex as a crime, since it could cause men and especially youths to develop "deviant behaviour" and stray away from a "normal and healthy life".

Instead the parliament came to the conclusion that it was a mostly innate condition and consequently it would be unreasonable to treat gay sex as a crime, and instead it would be treated primarily as a form of psychiatric disorder.

They did however decide, more or less as a compromise, to make it a crime to have gay sex with male minors above the age of 15, who were otherwise above the age of consent, because they were supposed to be in need of protection from homosexuals who might lead from a healthy normal development.

In short: based on flawed notions of how "mental health" was determined, combined with a political mandate to protect individuals and society from harmful influences, it was natural for treat homosexuality as a problem that should be limited.
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Old 7th September 2019, 07:20 PM   #179
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... and 80 years later, ignorance and bigotry continues to prevail over science and tolerance...
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Old 7th September 2019, 07:41 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
....,

Nau, not much physical disease related, except those related to the mind- hypertension? food addiction? Suicide? ....

I suspect suicide is rampant. I just got word that an in-law of an in-law botched a suicide attempt. Retired (barely made it, issues) Navy, father of 4, fighting for weeks with his wife over his desired sex change. Tried to hang himself, but posted in Facebook, a "friend" called the cops who cut him down. Oxygen starved, Brain dead. ( I hope he had a donor card.) I never heard of a "suicide gesture" by hanging. Most people get divorces, not hangings.
No gesture this time. They unplugged him yesterday. But not until they could transplant 4 life saving organs, and 60 other components that will help other people. RIP Ryan.
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Old 7th September 2019, 08:46 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not everything one disagrees with is irrational. Even stupid things aren't necessarily irrational.

Rational position: Promoting heterosexuality will lead to increased birthrates.
Irrational position: Promoting potato chips will summon alien demonoids who will give us magic glitter ponies.

Ummm,

...

what kind of potato chips?



(Asking for a friend.)
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:04 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
what kind of potato chips?
No, no, no...that was the IRRATIONAL position. Demonoids are totally overrated; we just need to find or engineer a glitter gene. We can already make magic glowing ponies. If people weren't always so anti-GMO, we'd probably already have purple-haired pets at the very least.

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Old 8th September 2019, 05:17 AM   #183
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We do! (And we don't depend on genetics for that.)
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Old 8th September 2019, 05:32 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
No, no, no...that was the IRRATIONAL position.

<snip>


Yes. I realize that.

I told you, I was asking for ... a friend.
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Old 8th September 2019, 05:34 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
We do! (And we don't depend on genetics for that.)


That dog does not appear very pleased about its new fur color.

Embarrassed, more like.
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Old 8th September 2019, 05:50 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
We do! (And we don't depend on genetics for that.)
Bah! Dye-based chicanery. One could just as easily throw a bunch of glitter on a horse or glue on a fake horn. I'm talking about the real thing. It's not the same. Mind you, I expect the embarrassed temporarily purple pooch is likely to be the happier and healthier of initial attempts. But science!

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Old 9th September 2019, 09:33 AM   #187
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Clearly like autism it is just them being sinful and immoral. Beat the autism out of them just like the gay!
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Old 9th September 2019, 10:02 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly like autism it is just them being sinful and immoral. Beat the autism out of them just like the gay!
Nonsense, everyone knows autism is caused by vaccines.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:09 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Nonsense, everyone knows autism is caused by vaccines.
I'm just imagining if someone came out with an "anti gay" vaccine. I reckon the cognitive dissonance would be enough to explode heads.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:14 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm just imagining if someone came out with an "anti gay" vaccine. I reckon the cognitive dissonance would be enough to explode heads.
When the day comes that humans can alter their sexual preferences medically the vast majority of those switching will be going from straight to gay. Because who would prefer easily available promiscuous sex with natural experts in your sex's anatomy with zero possibility of unintended pregnancy resulting? Almost everyone, that's who.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:18 PM   #191
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Small minded thinkers. In a few years our genitalia will be detachable and you'll be able to switch back and forth as easy as moving from pants to shorts.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:14 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm just imagining if someone came out with an "anti gay" vaccine. I reckon the cognitive dissonance would be enough to explode heads.
No I have it, homosexuality is caused by vaccines so we are again at not being able to hold the damage caused by the vaccine against someone.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:15 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
When the day comes that humans can alter their sexual preferences medically the vast majority of those switching will be going from straight to gay. Because who would prefer easily available promiscuous sex with natural experts in your sex's anatomy with zero possibility of unintended pregnancy resulting? Almost everyone, that's who.
I would go bi if I could.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:16 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Small minded thinkers. In a few years our genitalia will be detachable and you'll be able to switch back and forth as easy as moving from pants to shorts.
Great now we are mixing gender vs sex and so on into the discussion of sexual orientation again.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:58 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Abortion at least can be reasonably, depending on one's philosophy, viewed as affecting other people. Some pro-lifers genuinely feel that babies are being murdered, and so they get upset about that and want to protect them. (I don't believe that is the true motivation driving every single pro-lifer, but I do believe many truly feel that way.)

Likewise, complaining about pet owners often comes from the perspective of "keep your filthy/dangerous/resource-sucking anthropomorphized creature away from me." Alternatively, it can be seen as enslaving living beings for human amusement.

Wearing white after Labor Day hurts everybody, obviously. That needs no unpacking.

But homosexuality among adults? I just can't see how that can be construed as affecting anybody else. Even if you believe God hates it, let God sort them out when they're dead. Hello?

Yeah, yeah, decaying the moral fabric of society. Yawn. People need to worry more about the moral fabric of their own lives.
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
When the day comes that humans can alter their sexual preferences medically the vast majority of those switching will be going from straight to gay. Because who would prefer easily available promiscuous sex with natural experts in your sex's anatomy with zero possibility of unintended pregnancy resulting? Almost everyone, that's who.
I think TM answered your question that I highlighted. I would have just said "Jealousy," but TM is a much better writer, and has the ribbons to prove it.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:17 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I would go bi if I could.
Definitely. Might as well maximize the number of available partners.
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Old 18th September 2019, 08:36 AM   #197
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From the originalpaper:
Quote:
https://science.sciencemag.org/conte.../6456/eaat7693

....In aggregate, all tested genetic variants accounted for 8 to 25% of variation in male and female same-sex sexual behavior, and the genetic influences were positively but imperfectly correlated between the sexes [genetic correlation coefficient (rg)= 0.63; 95% confidence intervals, 0.48 to 0.78]. These aggregate genetic influences partly overlapped with those on a variety of other traits, including externalizing behaviors such as smoking, cannabis use, risk-taking, and the personality trait “openness to experience.” ....
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:59 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
From the originalpaper:
Yeah, this is why I'm confused about the OP... the paper concluded that there's no single gene, but that there is clearly a polygenetic input to sexual orientation. Many independent studies have repeatedly shown this.

And this makes sense, since the result is a gradient with individuals finding themselves somewhere along a continuum from completely straight to completely same sex oriented.

There's a second factor is that we can have biopredisposition that is not inherited. An example of this is right vs left handedness. This is not genetic, but gestational. People are born with a dominant hand, it's not a social choice, and not genetic.

Sexual orientation has an additional gestational model (gestational hormone exposure?) that is hard to extricate from a genetic model, since the usual approach is twin studies. Unfortunately, it's a confounding factor since twins share a uterus in addition to (all or half or 'none') of their genetics, depending on fertilization &c.

(this is where IVF comparisons can be useful, but I haven't seen any studies that exploit this)
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Last edited by blutoski; 23rd September 2019 at 11:00 AM. Reason: eta clarifying with ivf example
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Old 23rd September 2019, 05:42 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
......

(this is where IVF comparisons can be useful, but I haven't seen any studies that exploit this)
You would need a batch of subjects that were from matching test tubes. They do implant left over eggs into other donors don't they?

Or would octets/septets do?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 06:04 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post

Sexual orientation has an additional gestational model (gestational hormone exposure?) that is hard to extricate from a genetic model, since the usual approach is twin studies. Unfortunately, it's a confounding factor since twins share a uterus in addition to (all or half or 'none') of their genetics, depending on fertilization &c.
Shouldn’t comparing identical to fraternal twins be able to differentiate between the gestational environment (shared in all twins) from the genetic favors (less commonality between fraternal than identical twins)?
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