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Old 6th September 2019, 04:37 PM   #41
p0lka
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Rubbish. Use the way back archive on www.Ianpaisley.org.

The religious elements are still there in force.
ETA to save you some time the first entry on his site from 1998
Quoting Ian paisley to back up irish history is a bit like quoting David icke to prove reptiles.
He isn't exactly impartial, is my point.
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Old 6th September 2019, 04:43 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I'm interested to know what these cultural differences are that are not linked to religion.
Republican and unionist springs to mind.
That's the political aspect.
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Old 6th September 2019, 06:06 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Do you have any particular reason to believe this or is it just pontificating on your part?
Because young people in general are less likely to get worked up about things that happened to their grandparents.
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Old 7th September 2019, 12:12 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Your keen insight never ceases to amaze.







For those of you who aren't Darat, if you have always wondered why Northern Ireland has a different religious makeup than the rest of the island, read the Wikipedia article about the plantation of Ulster. In some nations, religious divisions between geographic regions came about because some charismatic religious leader gained strong influence in some region of the country. (Example: Martin Luther and Germany.) In Ireland, it was more a case of conquest. The Irish lost a war. The English/Scottish took some land. They created a Protestant colony of sorts, with continued immigration in later years, and a couple of centuries later there was the partition and "the troubles".



As for what comes next, it's hard to say. The cultural differences between the Irish and the Northern Irish descendants of the Scots and English transplants have largely disappeared. The language died out, for all practical purposes, long ago. The religion is becoming less significant. Global media influence is making accents less pronounced, just as it is doing in the rest of the English speaking world. What's left? I suspect that the younger generation isn't as into the whole Orange/Green conflict, and are more likely to play guitars than either harps or flutes. Will anyone care about Irish versus British in a decade or two? It's hard to say. I would say if the border remains open, it won't be a big deal. If the border closes up, I think the Catholic/Gaelic faction in Northern Ireland will have greater reason to resent the British dominance and be more likely to support unification with the rest of Ireland. Unification isn't likely to happen, but support for it might lead to some squabbling and maybe even a resumption of violence in times to come.
Again a long post of unreferenced speculation and claims is just as wrong as a short one.
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Old 7th September 2019, 12:13 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Quoting Ian paisley to back up irish history is a bit like quoting David icke to prove reptiles.

He isn't exactly impartial, is my point.
That he wasn't impartial is rather my point....
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Old 7th September 2019, 01:34 AM   #46
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Personally if it were me I would call a new referendum.

Corrupt it by pretending the result is not leaving even if it isn't and never bringing it up again.
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Old 7th September 2019, 04:40 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Because young people in general are less likely to get worked up about things that happened to their grandparents.
These guys must be groups of pensioners then?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9086306.html
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:12 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
These guys must be groups of pensioners then?



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9086306.html
Sprightly aren't they?
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Old 7th September 2019, 06:40 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
I'm sure most people know .... the Republic of Ireland–United Kingdom border, was fully active with armed guards well into the early 1990's ... It's still well marked today it's about 500 miles long.

Putting the border back up only requires re-installing the gates and arms and manning the booths ... there under 300 border crossing points now.

They were talking about remanning all the booths and crossing points, and some prep work was done just in 2007 ... but they decided to keep the new status quo
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Old 7th September 2019, 06:41 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A great many people in the Irish Republic feel that way also.
Don't kid yourself, for all 32 Country Republic Rhetoric, all the singing of rebel songs, and all the shouting of "Four Green Fields!" the Irish of the Republic don't want to be saddled with the mess that is Ulster.
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Old 7th September 2019, 11:45 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again a long post of unreferenced speculation and claims is just as wrong as a short one.
Well, Darat, you can keep your smug "you are wrong" posts, or find some other use for them. Here's the thing. I am confident that there are people who are reading this thread who were unaware that there was another dimension to the Northern Irish situation other than the religious one. In America at least, it is always presented as if it were simply a dispute about theology, between Catholics and Protestants. I'm sure they didn't know there was more to it than that.

I'm also confident that if anyone's interest was piqued enough to actually find out more on the subject, they will find that the eight or 10 paragraphs I have written on the subject are a very poor summary of the most recent 400 years of the Anglo/Irish conflict and the way in which its legacy continues to influence Northern Ireland and, as a consequence, the European Union and Brexit. However, if that happens, then I will know that I provided information that people found useful. I'm satisfied that I put the E in ISF in this thread, even if the information isn't perfect.

Can you say the same, with your "rubbish" and "wrong" and content free posts? Well, that's unfair, I suppose. You did provide one out of context quotation from the Reverend Ian Paisley, whose name will be quite familiar to anyone familiar with the recent history of Northern Ireland.

And, speaking of the name of the Reverend Ian Paisley, I wonder if he might have been named after a grandparent, or perhaps someone else in his family tree.

ETA: And, I might add, my thanks to Border Reiver, who provided some additional information that I was unfamiliar with.

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Old 7th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
... the mess that is Ulster.
So, Lord Craigavon's 1934 project hasn't worked out exactly as he expected
All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State. It would be rather interesting for historians of the future to compare a Catholic State launched in the South with a Protestant State launched in the North and to see which gets on the better and prospers the more. It is most interesting for me at the moment to watch how they are progressing. I am doing my best always to top the bill and to be ahead of the South.
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Old 7th September 2019, 12:38 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
These guys must be groups of pensioners then?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9086306.html
Do you have anything to add? Seriously, what is your point?

I said that I suspect the whole Orange/Green thing won't matter as much in the future, because people tend not to get all that worked up about things that happened to their grandparents. Am I certain it won't? Of course I'm not certain. That's why I said "suspect". Human history is full of incidents of people killing each other over stupid stuff, and it may be that "the troubles" will return in the future when some argument over the proper way to prepare Irish stew becomes a political issue.

So, the fact that a group of people in Glasgow held a march proves.....something.....or...……..whatever.

Personally, I find it interesting a rebellion that occurred 400 years ago could influence whether or not the UK will manage to find a way to exit the European Union. Those kinds of historical connections are interesting to me. Apparently, they aren't interesting to everyone, but I'll be danged if I can figure out what is interesting to the people who apparently aren't interested in that connection.
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Old 8th September 2019, 12:30 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Personally, I find it interesting a rebellion that occurred 400 years ago could influence whether or not the UK will manage to find a way to exit the European Union. Those kinds of historical connections are interesting to me. Apparently, they aren't interesting to everyone, but I'll be danged if I can figure out what is interesting to the people who apparently aren't interested in that connection.
Which rebellion 400 years ago ?

The greater influence is from the troubles which, although they may still be simmering away, were officially ended with the Good Friday Agreement.
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:04 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Which rebellion 400 years ago ?
The one led by Hugh O'Neil and Hugh O'Donnel, the earls of Tyrone and Tirconnel, which are in Ulster. The rebellion is often named "The Nine Years War", and it ended in 1603 after a major Irish defeat in the battle of Kinsale. After it was defeated, King James (I of England, VI of Scotland) confiscated a lot of Ulster land and gave it to Protestants from Scotland (mostly) and England. That was the "plantation of Ulster", and that's why there are people with names like "Paisley" living in Northern Ireland.

"The Troubles" didn't arise out of nothing in 1969. If you read the Wikipedia article on "The Troubles", in the "Background" section it starts with 1609.

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Old 8th September 2019, 01:40 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The one led by Hugh O'Neil and Hugh O'Donnel, the earls of Tyrone and Tirconnel, which are in Ulster. The rebellion is often named "The Nine Years War", and it ended in 1603 after a major Irish defeat in the battle of Kinsale. After it was defeated, King James (I of England, VI of Scotland) confiscated a lot of Ulster land and gave it to Protestants from Scotland (mostly) and England. That was the "plantation of Ulster", and that's why there are people with names like "Paisley" living in Northern Ireland.

"The Troubles" didn't arise out of nothing in 1969. If you read the Wikipedia article on "The Troubles", in the "Background" section it starts with 1609.
True, then again there's almost always a historical background to everything.

Simply saying "Personally, I find it interesting a rebellion that occurred 400 years ago could influence whether or not the UK will manage to find a way to exit the European Union." is as relevant to saying "Personally, I find it interesting a rebellion that occurred 250 years ago could influence (whatever the US is doing)......."
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:03 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Do you have anything to add? Seriously, what is your point?

I said that I suspect the whole Orange/Green thing won't matter as much in the future, because people tend not to get all that worked up about things that happened to their grandparents. Am I certain it won't? Of course I'm not certain. That's why I said "suspect". Human history is full of incidents of people killing each other over stupid stuff, and it may be that "the troubles" will return in the future when some argument over the proper way to prepare Irish stew becomes a political issue.

So, the fact that a group of people in Glasgow held a march proves.....something.....or...……..whatever.

Personally, I find it interesting a rebellion that occurred 400 years ago could influence whether or not the UK will manage to find a way to exit the European Union. Those kinds of historical connections are interesting to me. Apparently, they aren't interesting to everyone, but I'll be danged if I can figure out what is interesting to the people who apparently aren't interested in that connection.
Do you know what the 'march' in Glasgow was about? And why there was a disturbance?

Here's a hint: The Orange/Green thing.

Pretending to be better informed and then showing your ignorance isn't a good look.
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Old 8th September 2019, 09:10 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
True, then again there's almost always a historical background to everything.

Simply saying "Personally, I find it interesting a rebellion that occurred 400 years ago could influence whether or not the UK will manage to find a way to exit the European Union." is as relevant to saying "Personally, I find it interesting a rebellion that occurred 250 years ago could influence (whatever the US is doing)......."
Exactly. Some of modern American politics is directly influenced by things that happened in 1775 and thereabouts, and I find that interesting, and sometimes in threads about modern America, I or somebody else might call attention to those influences, and learning those connections that were previously unknown, and creating incentives to research and find out more about them is what makes this forum worthwhile to me.

Now, that doesn't mean that modern people, in Ireland or America, are sitting around thinking, "I'm really upset at what happened to Hugh O'Donnell." or "That Stamp Act was totally unjust, so I'm going to vote Republican!" but understanding those connections does sometimes shed light on modern politics.

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Old 8th September 2019, 09:59 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Do you know what the 'march' in Glasgow was about? And why there was a disturbance?

Here's a hint: The Orange/Green thing.

Pretending to be better informed and then showing your ignorance isn't a good look.
Great. So, provide some information. Is Irish nationalism still a thing? Of course. Is it growing, or shrinking? I don't know. I would expect it to shrink, but I don't know. How is Brexit affecting it? My guess is that people in Northern Ireland were less likely to vote for leaving, so they are more likely to want to stay in the EU, so probably Brexit is giving a boost to people who want to unify with Ireland. Am I right? If the border actually ends up being closed, I would think that would give a significant boost, because suddenly it would actually affect people's daily lives, as opposed to being a purely philosophical notion.

Look, I get the whole, "I'm right. You're wrong." thing. I'm not above scoring points against someone who disagrees with me. It's kind of fun, actually, but if that's all there is, then this forum is no better than the rest of the wasteland that is the general state of internet discussion. Contribute something.

This subthread started with a question about religion versus cultural elements in the Northern Ireland conflict. I figured there were plenty of people who didn't know that the conflicts had an ethnic, as opposed to purely religious, origin. So, there are people marching in Glasgow for Irish unification. Here's something that I would wonder about. Do those people go to mass? In other words, do the political divisions related to being part of the UK versus being part of Ireland persist after people stop caring, at least personally, about religion? I know that Ireland has seen a general decline in religious belief and observance, just as it has been in most of the world. How has that affected the politics? If people thought that the conflict was purely religious, as it is often portrayed, especially in American sources, they would expect that the conflict would go away as the religion went away. I happen to know that the conflict was never a purely religious thing, so I don't know what the future holds. For people who didn't know that, I provided some information they can use about the history and nature of the conflict, if that's something they are inclined to do.

ETA: Or are the marchers in Glasgow actually Scottish and English people who find Ulster annoying, and are trying to dump it off onto Ireland so they don't have to worry about it?

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Old 9th September 2019, 03:23 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Great. So, provide some information. Is Irish nationalism still a thing? Of course. Is it growing, or shrinking? I don't know. I would expect it to shrink, but I don't know. How is Brexit affecting it? My guess is that people in Northern Ireland were less likely to vote for leaving, so they are more likely to want to stay in the EU, so probably Brexit is giving a boost to people who want to unify with Ireland. Am I right? If the border actually ends up being closed, I would think that would give a significant boost, because suddenly it would actually affect people's daily lives, as opposed to being a purely philosophical notion.

Look, I get the whole, "I'm right. You're wrong." thing. I'm not above scoring points against someone who disagrees with me. It's kind of fun, actually, but if that's all there is, then this forum is no better than the rest of the wasteland that is the general state of internet discussion. Contribute something.

This subthread started with a question about religion versus cultural elements in the Northern Ireland conflict. I figured there were plenty of people who didn't know that the conflicts had an ethnic, as opposed to purely religious, origin. So, there are people marching in Glasgow for Irish unification. Here's something that I would wonder about. Do those people go to mass? In other words, do the political divisions related to being part of the UK versus being part of Ireland persist after people stop caring, at least personally, about religion? I know that Ireland has seen a general decline in religious belief and observance, just as it has been in most of the world. How has that affected the politics? If people thought that the conflict was purely religious, as it is often portrayed, especially in American sources, they would expect that the conflict would go away as the religion went away. I happen to know that the conflict was never a purely religious thing, so I don't know what the future holds. For people who didn't know that, I provided some information they can use about the history and nature of the conflict, if that's something they are inclined to do.

ETA: Or are the marchers in Glasgow actually Scottish and English people who find Ulster annoying, and are trying to dump it off onto Ireland so they don't have to worry about it?
Well that's why I was asking questions about what cultural differences people were talking about and whether you had reasons to think what you think beyond speculation from afar.

The conflict is not about theological differences, I doubt it ever was, but it's about 'them lot and us lot' with the differentiator being Catholic and Protestant.

You are dealing with a history of conflict and segregation and real discrimination and bigotry towards Irish Catholics in the UK. And it isn't going away with church-going because the segregation continues in other elements of life - separate schools for example - that maintain it.

As far as I am concerned, while segregated schooling remains, there will always be a problem between the two communities. But most Catholics see the idea of ending the segregation as an attack on Catholics (regardless of whether they go to mass or not) which is probably understandable given the history but not helpful in the long run.

Glasgow is complicated because football is thrown into the mix as well. And that isn't going away anytime soon. 50,000 people singing about killing Catholics and wars that happened over 300 years ago isn't helpful.

And I don't see things changing because none of the underlying factors ever really changes much. The discrimination becomes hidden rather than obvious, the segregation continues from both communities, the tensions rise and fall and the violence ebbs and grows depending on the current situation but it still remains.

And so poking the hornets' nest is never really a good idea. Especially not to achieve a tax fiddle for some rich folk and sate the bigotry of the masses.
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Old 9th September 2019, 04:12 AM   #61
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Sorry Archie, but you are wrong, especially on the protestant side there are huge religious issues as well as everything else. You can't simply excise the religious aspects.
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Old 9th September 2019, 04:31 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sorry Archie, but you are wrong, especially on the protestant side there are huge religious issues as well as everything else. You can't simply excise the religious aspects.
I think it depends what you mean by religious issues. I don't think most people are arguing over theological differences in the Eucharist.

If you mean that there are deep-seated differences around something like the primacy of the Pope or the Catholic Churches views on certain social issues then I would agree.
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Old 9th September 2019, 10:25 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sorry Archie, but you are wrong, especially on the protestant side there are huge religious issues as well as everything else. You can't simply excise the religious aspects.
Are the huge religious issues visible on both sides of the Irish border? And can you give an example or two? One I can think of is what's often referred to in Canada as "Marching Season."

Here in Canada, my experience is people don't care if another person is Catholic or Protestant. I've never heard anyone voice concern over the religious affiliation of the Prime Minister. Unfortunately that disregard doesn't extend to Muslims or Sikhs.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:37 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Are the huge religious issues visible on both sides of the Irish border? And can you give an example or two? One I can think of is what's often referred to in Canada as "Marching Season."

Here in Canada, my experience is people don't care if another person is Catholic or Protestant. I've never heard anyone voice concern over the religious affiliation of the Prime Minister. Unfortunately that disregard doesn't extend to Muslims or Sikhs.
There are no huge religious issues in the Republic.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:20 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well that's why I was asking questions about what cultural differences people were talking about and whether you had reasons to think what you think beyond speculation from afar.

The conflict is not about theological differences, I doubt it ever was, but it's about 'them lot and us lot' with the differentiator being Catholic and Protestant.

You are dealing with a history of conflict and segregation and real discrimination and bigotry towards Irish Catholics in the UK. And it isn't going away with church-going because the segregation continues in other elements of life - separate schools for example - that maintain it.

As far as I am concerned, while segregated schooling remains, there will always be a problem between the two communities. But most Catholics see the idea of ending the segregation as an attack on Catholics (regardless of whether they go to mass or not) which is probably understandable given the history but not helpful in the long run.

Glasgow is complicated because football is thrown into the mix as well. And that isn't going away anytime soon. 50,000 people singing about killing Catholics and wars that happened over 300 years ago isn't helpful.

And I don't see things changing because none of the underlying factors ever really changes much. The discrimination becomes hidden rather than obvious, the segregation continues from both communities, the tensions rise and fall and the violence ebbs and grows depending on the current situation but it still remains.

And so poking the hornets' nest is never really a good idea. Especially not to achieve a tax fiddle for some rich folk and sate the bigotry of the masses.
(emphasis added)

That's pretty much it. Over the course of 800 years of conflict, the English changed to British, Protestants became a thing, the number of native languages in the British Isles went from 7 down to 1 (maybe a few stragglers, but, realistically, 1) ,Ireland became a province and then A Nation Once Again, although it's arguable whether it was really a nation in the first place, as opposed to a cluster of minor kingdoms with a mostly common language, and the Common Market became the European Union. Throughout all of that, the only real constant was US vs. THEM.

So, once again for people who don't understand the issue of this thread, for the last 20 years or so, there haven't been a lot of people killing each other over the US and THEM issue. There's a lot of reasons for that, but at least one contributing factor was that 20 years ago there was an agreement, one of the effects of which was to make it a lot easier to travel across the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. It was pretty easy to go back and forth and conduct business on either side of the line.

With Brexit, that border will become a lot more difficult because of EU requirements, and everyone's afraid that will lead to a resumption of strife between US and THEM. The best possible outcome is that a lot of people will be inconvenienced. The worst possible outcome is that they'll go back to blowing each other up. One reaction to that is to try and make that particular border with the EU easier for people and stuff to cross, but that's all under negotiation.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 11th September 2019 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:25 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Great. So, provide some information. Is Irish nationalism still a thing? Of course. Is it growing, or shrinking? I don't know. I would expect it to shrink, but I don't know. How is Brexit affecting it? My guess is that people in Northern Ireland were less likely to vote for leaving, so they are more likely to want to stay in the EU, so probably Brexit is giving a boost to people who want to unify with Ireland. Am I right?
According to this poll, it seems so:

Quote:
A NEW POLL has shown just over half of people in Northern Ireland would vote for Irish unification if there were a border poll tomorrow.

The poll, published by Lord Ashcroft, shows that 45% of those surveyed said they would vote to stay in the UK, while 46% said they would choose to leave and join the Republic of Ireland.

This breaks down to 51% to 49% for unification when don’t knows and those who say they would not vote are excluded.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:27 PM   #67
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Ireland and the UK have an overlap which is northern ireland

some people in northern ireland want it to be ireland,
some people in northern ireland want it to be UK,
troubles ensued,

some guy from anywhere solved it by asking 'why can't it be both'.
troubles ceased.

Last edited by p0lka; 11th September 2019 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 18th September 2019, 02:44 PM   #68
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Meanwhile, if the Conservative-leaning FT is to be believed, the PM could also do with reading this thread
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 18th September 2019, 03:25 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The one led by Hugh O'Neil and Hugh O'Donnel, the earls of Tyrone and Tirconnel, which are in Ulster. The rebellion is often named "The Nine Years War", and it ended in 1603 after a major Irish defeat in the battle of Kinsale. After it was defeated, King James (I of England, VI of Scotland) confiscated a lot of Ulster land and gave it to Protestants from Scotland (mostly) and England. That was the "plantation of Ulster", and that's why there are people with names like "Paisley" living in Northern Ireland.

"The Troubles" didn't arise out of nothing in 1969. If you read the Wikipedia article on "The Troubles", in the "Background" section it starts with 1609.

Depends on how far back you want to go. Some take it wall the way back to the 12th Century and the Norman invasion of Ireland.....
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Old 18th September 2019, 03:27 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
There are no huge religious issues in the Republic.
Not anymore, but until about 20 years there were. Although on paper Protestents and other non Catholics had equal rights, in reality they were often treated as second class citizens.
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Old 18th September 2019, 03:32 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sorry Archie, but you are wrong, especially on the protestant side there are huge religious issues as well as everything else. You can't simply excise the religious aspects.

It would be like saying Fundemental Islamic Beliefs have nothing to do with the situation in the Middle East today....

If you think that religious beleifs are stupid and silly, fine, but at the same time understand there are lots of people who take them very,very, seriously.
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