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Old 11th September 2019, 02:59 PM   #121
blutoski
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
The point that started all this was me saying I don't think it's irrational to want to get vitamins in their natural form. The point applies to omnivores and carnivores too FFS.
I'm with you, although vegans enter a tough zone since vitamin B12 doesn't seem to have natural vegetable sources. At least none that I'm aware of with reliable concentrations/dosages... the actual source of the B12 would be contaminating/symbiotic/parasitic bacteria. This is why there's controversy over seaweed - the candidate B12 seaweed sources IMO just don't seem to have a reliably high concentration to be practical as a component of regular meals.

This is maybe a bit of a personal bias because I just don't like the taste of most of our local seaweeds, even though they're considered some sort of special delicacy.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:12 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
At least none that I'm aware of with reliable concentrations/dosages... the actual source of the B12 would be contaminating/symbiotic/parasitic bacteria. This is why there's controversy over seaweed - the candidate B12 seaweed sources IMO just don't seem to have a reliably high concentration to be practical as a component of regular meals.

This is maybe a bit of a personal bias because I just don't like the taste of most of our local seaweeds, even though they're considered some sort of special delicacy.
Yeah, my takeaway was that you'd have to treat a couple of food sources as practically medicinal if you wanted to go an all natural route. Possibly having to learn to ferment your own foods even.

Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I'm with you, although vegans enter a tough zone since vitamin B12 doesn't seem to have natural vegetable sources.
Only for those that don't want to supplement. I think it probably got lost that I previously said I know of no harmful differences between natural and synthetic forms of B12.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:32 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Yeah, my takeaway was that you'd have to treat a couple of food sources as practically medicinal if you wanted to go an all natural route. Possibly having to learn to ferment your own foods even.
Which feels unjustifiably time consuming and unnecessarily complex. Bordering on orthorexia.



Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Only for those that don't want to supplement. I think it probably got lost that I previously said I know of no harmful differences between natural and synthetic forms of B12.
Ah, I get your position now. Given the need for supplementation, natural and synthetic B12 sources are probably substitutable. Yes, I think so too, for this specific vitamin.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:33 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Since I've made it clear that I understand vitamins are families of substances that doesn't seem a reasonable assumption.
It's not an assumption. It's basic implicature. And since the confusion wasn't over whether vitamins are families of substances, but over which of those substances can be artificially synthesized, nothing follows from that charitable interpretation.

Quote:
I have not said a single word about holding vegans to any standard.
I didn't say you have. You do however, keep denying that it's not difficult to get adequate B12 on a vegan diet. And you do that by fetishizing food, implying that there's something difficult or unnatural, or even non-dietary about popping a pill or checking a label for fortification. There isn't. It's trivial. I've spent less time thinking about it the last year than I have on this thread.

Quote:
The point that started all this was me saying I don't think it's irrational to want to get vitamins in their natural form. The point applies to omnivores and carnivores too FFS.
Well, I think that is irrational, or at least unreasonable, and plays into this silly food snobbery--that we should eat actual food. In some cases, we're better off with industrial processes and synthetic nutrients. Better living through chemistry.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:07 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
This thread isn't about a primarily plant-based diet, it's about an entirely plant-based diet.


In the study they lumped vegetarians and vegans into the same group. Some vegetarians do eat dairy and eggs; i.e. non plant-based foods. Those dairy consuming vegetarians would not have the B-12 deficiency that is the one major deficiency Vegans (absolutely no animal products) have.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:11 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
People are funny.



"Nutritional yeast" oh joy. When fortified in a lab/factory somewhere, it can replace some of the vitamins found in actual food. What's not to love?



My wife is mainly vegetarian but includes fish/seafood. This works great for me because it means I'm eating less meat than I normally would were I responsible for preparing the food.



I don't think it's crazy at all impose certain dietary restrictions for health or moral reasons. I do find it a bit weird when food has to be engineered to either taste good, be of palatable texture, or contain proper nutrition.


I think itís a benefit of modern food science. Nutritional yeast is really good used on popcorn, in sauces or as a flavoring on veggies. Gives a cheesy/buttery flavor.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:17 PM   #127
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Eat meat - heart attack. Go vegan - stroke

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Itís not crazy to eat only plants and with a little planning, you donít need supplements-itís nutritionally complete. B12 is available from nutritional yeast and many vegan friendly foods are fortified with it.


What's the plant based source of B12?


Not plant based, bacteria based. I have followed your discussion with mumblethrax and the bottom line is that vegans who supplement with B12 donít have B 12 deficiency. Which is evidence enough that it works just fine.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:18 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
In the study they lumped vegetarians and vegans into the same group. Some vegetarians do eat dairy and eggs; i.e. non plant-based foods. Those dairy consuming vegetarians would not have the B-12 deficiency that is the one major deficiency Vegans (absolutely no animal products) have.
It's worth mentioning that practically no vegans have B12 deficiency, more or less because the fortification of commonly consumed products (nut milks, rice milk, some brands of rice, nutritional yeast...) is so prevalent.

Fortification being the same reason few omnivores don't have rickets, vitamin D is otherwise deficient in the diet.

We'll still see a few incidents now and again, because some people have weird eating habits, regardless of their general diet category.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:26 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I quoted someone earlier who said supplements were unnecessary for vegans.

Letting a food processor add vitamins and other nutrients to your food is no different than taking the pills, powder or whatever, yourself.

The fact that breakfast cereal is fortified with almost every vitamin under the sun, is a clue to just how healthy those whole grains are...
If thatís what you mean by supplementation then literally everyone is doing it already so it is not an argument against veganism.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:55 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If thatís what you mean by supplementation then literally everyone is doing it already so it is not an argument against veganism.
I never said it was..

... but, you said:

Quote:
Could you provide evidence that supplements are necessary for veganism?
...and the evidence was provided for you..

The only valid argument against veganism, is the one where someone doesn't wish to practice it.

The reasons they have may be more or less valid, depending on what they actually are..

My valid argument, is that I enjoy eating meat and other things that some vegans/vegetarians choose not to eat.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:58 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
...Fortification being the same reason few omnivores don't have rickets, vitamin D is otherwise deficient in the diet.
...
Dietary vit D is not essential. We make our own- when UV rays hit our skin. Wearing clothes, living indoors , and sunscreen are the cause of the deficiency. "Societal deficiency" ? One of many? An orthorexia perhaps, with people slathering on SPF 500 to prevent skin cancer, then needing supplementation?
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:03 PM   #132
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Its essential for me. As you get older, you do not synthesize as much as when you were young..
I know this for a fact..
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:06 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
You do however, keep denying that it's not difficult to get adequate B12 on a vegan diet.
No, for God ******* sakes, No. I've never once denied it. I never denied you can't do it with supplements/fortification and for God ******* sakes I'm the person who cited a source showing it can be done without fortification/supplements. I don't think anyone besides me did that.

My freaking point was that it is not irrational to want your vitamins to come from natural sources.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:08 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I had to look up rennet, and it looks delicious:
When I did a cheesemaking course a couple of years ago with a professional cheesemaking school, I was told that most cheese made in Australia is made with non-animal based rennet.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:10 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by xjx388
Not plant based, bacteria based. I have followed your discussion with mumblethrax and the bottom line is that vegans who supplement with B12 donít have B 12 deficiency. Which is evidence enough that it works just fine.
But you said it can be done without supplements.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:19 PM   #136
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[Edit button not working again, so I'm not adding this to prior post]


And, ironically, it was me who showed you were at least theoretically if not practically right. I cited evidence for a very short list of plant sourced B12.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:25 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No, for God ******* sakes, No. I've never once denied it.
I don't know what to say at this point. I think you're just not paying attention to what you're saying.

Here's the thread of that conversation for you:

Me: "There's no difficulty in getting bioavailable B12 in a vegan diet,..."
You: "Yes, there is."

Quote:
My freaking point was that it is not irrational to want your vitamins to come from natural sources.
I know that's your point. I'm saying it's wrong. It's silly Michael Pollan-style food fetishism. There's no good reason to prefer that especially after it's already been explained in excruciating detail that there's no difference between synthetic and "natural" forms of the same vitamer.

Quote:
And, ironically, it was me who showed you were at least theoretically if not practically right. I cited evidence for a very short list of plant sourced B12.
Trust me, I'm aware. Many of those sources are unreliable, often difficult to find, and expensive compared with just having a bit of plant milk or a B12 tablet. The best candidate is nori, and I'm not going to eat a sheet of nori every day for the rest of my life. I will probably have a cup of tea every day for the rest of my life, or one of the other myriad foods that's routinely fortified and that I would have difficulty avoiding.

I'm right because there's no reason to exclude fortified foods or supplements from what we consider a vegan diet. The fact that there's a handful of plant sources of B12 is neither here nor there--most vegans won't be getting much B12 from them. I mean, I haven't had an algaeburger in years.

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Old 11th September 2019, 06:27 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
But you said it can be done without supplements.

My original statement was referring specifically to pills. Vegans donít need to use pills. But now, we are lumping fortification into supplements. So if thatís the case. the average omnivore diet canít be done without supplements either. Without the fortification we put in milk, bread, cereals, etc, the average omnivore would likely be deficient. Hell, in our medical practice, vitamin B and D deficiencies are quite common as are mineral deficiencies.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:31 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I mean I don't know what to say at this point. I think you're just not paying attention to what you're saying.

Here's the thread of that conversation for you:

Me: "There's no difficulty in getting bioavailable B12 in a vegan diet,..."
You: "Yes, there is."
Yes, there is a difficulty. That is not wrong. You either have to be very careful about eating a very short list of plant based B12 sources or you have to supplement. That's a difficulty.
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I know that's your point. I'm saying it's wrong. It's silly Michael Pollan-style food fetishism. There's no good reason to prefer that especially after it's already been explained in excruciating detail that there's no difference between synthetic and "natural" forms.

But there is a difference for crying out loud. More than one even. You've cited some of them yourself.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:36 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by xjx388
My original statement was referring specifically to pills.
supplements != pills[* see ETA]

Originally Posted by xjx388
Vegans don’t need to use pills. But now, we are lumping fortification into supplements. So if that’s the case. the average omnivore diet can’t be done without supplements either. Without the fortification we put in milk, bread, cereals, etc, the average omnivore would likely be deficient.
If you have the slightest ability to read English you should be able to see I've already pointed this out.

ETA: * but I'll have no trouble understanding what you mean when you say this in the future.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:55 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Its essential for me. As you get older, you do not synthesize as much as when you were young..
I know this for a fact..
And when is the last time you got a tan?

Go Au naturale, make "natural" vitamin D.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:14 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Buddhists aren't necessarily vegetarians, but my understanding is that the majority are anyway. Depends on the region, since they obtain food through 'begging' and pretty much have to take what they get.

Not mentioned above is Hindus, something like over a third of whom are lacto-vegetarian, not just avoiding beef, but all meat. So Including Buddhists, India is overall 31% lacto-vegetarian. That's a little over 400 million just in India. There is about the same proportion in Bangladesh, Burma, &c, so globally maybe a billion total.

ie: at the moment, about one in six earthlings is vegetarian. It's pretty common and ordinary outside the West.

I think a lot of the reaction to vegetarianism is that it's perceived as strange. It's spent many generations in the west being a sign of getting roped into some Oriental Cult, rather than recognized as just ordinary behavior in unfamiliar civilizations.

I think it's easier for me because I had the benefit of exposure to lots of cultures when I was young. One of the foster families I lived with were Rastas, and they were vegetarian. I spent a few childhood years eating delicious West Indies dishes, all vegetarian. And all of us were very healthy competitive athletes, it wasn't an issue until the occasional jackass heard about it and decided to make changing our ways the hill s/he was going to die on.
Vs. BILLIONS of omnivores? So much for argument by (whatever).

If you read the study from the OP, only 57% of vegetarians stuck with the 'lifestyle'. Seems to me it it was good for them, they would have noticed and stayed with it. They were recruited for the study from "the vegetarian society of England", already vegetarians by choice.

EVERYTHING is genetic. Every godammm little thing. And as such is subject to damn near random variations, though trends are common. Some of us do need Carnitine in amounts larger than plants can provide. Or CoQ10, or B12, .... I just can't see eliminating any food group for potential lack of some unknown micronutrient.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:19 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Yes, there is a difficulty. That is not wrong. You either have to be very careful about eating a very short list of plant based B12 sources or you have to supplement. That's a difficulty.
Again, it's almost literally impossible for me to not get B12 in my diet. I'd have to go with some really esoteric raw food diet for that to be the case. Even if I thought I didn't need B12, I'd still get it.

And buying (and taking) supplements is not "a difficulty", unless you need to wear a helmet indoors. It's the most basic of basic adult tasks. Preparing a meal is orders of magnitude more difficult, but I wouldn't call that a difficulty, either.

Quote:
But there is a difference for crying out loud. More than one even. You've cited some of them yourself.
I don't think I cited anything. I mentioned that food-borne B12 is protein bound, but that's hardly significant. If you do consider it significant, it would make the "it's not irrational to prefer 'natural' sources" point of view doubly unreasonable.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:49 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If that’s what you mean by supplementation then literally everyone is doing it already so it is not an argument against veganism.
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I never said it was..

... but, you said:

Quote:
Could you provide evidence that supplements are necessary for veganism?
...and the evidence was provided for you..
I haven't seen evidence for that. Where was this provided?

Besides, the NHS website says the following:

Quote:
Do vegetarians and vegans need vitamin supplements?
With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegetarian and vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs to be healthy without the need for supplements.

However, if your diet isn't planned properly, you could miss out on essential nutrients. Vegetarians need to make sure they get enough iron and vitamin B12, and vegans enough calcium, iron and vitamin B12. Women are thought to be at particular risk of iron deficiency, including those on a vegetarian or vegan diet.
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-wel...diets-q-and-a/

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The only valid argument against veganism, is the one where someone doesn't wish to practice it.

The reasons they have may be more or less valid, depending on what they actually are..

My valid argument, is that I enjoy eating meat and other things that some vegans/vegetarians choose not to eat.
I don't know what you mean by "valid argument" in this case, or how you rule that "the only valid argument against X is Y".

But it is clear that people in this thread are arguing that the need for supplementation is an argument against veganism ("It's unnatural, man!"), even if you are not doing this.
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Old 12th September 2019, 01:34 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I think a lot of the reaction to vegetarianism is that it's perceived as strange.

And of course you have scare stories like this one. The neglect is real, but I would not class the highly restrictive diet described as being a 'Vegan Diet' by a long shot.


Quote:
Parents of a 13-year-old boy could face up to 22 years and six months in prison after their severely malnourished child ran away from home.


...



Citing police records, Mr Crall said the boy was forced to eat a strict vegan diet, consisting of almonds, bananas and grapes.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/starved-ch...020416595.html
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Old 12th September 2019, 01:48 AM   #146
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Perhaps a more nuanced take on that story...

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Old 12th September 2019, 06:41 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
.
But it is clear that people in this thread are arguing that the need for supplementation is an argument against veganism ("It's unnatural, man!"), even if you are not doing this.

Who?
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:50 AM   #148
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Aside: I just looked at my bottle of B complex. Each capsule contains 60mg desiccated liver. The B12 content aligns with that being it's source. NOT vegetarian. And dried liver must be the cheapest spource or they would use the stuff made in a vat.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:02 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Aside: I just looked at my bottle of B complex. Each capsule contains 60mg desiccated liver. The B12 content aligns with that being it's source. NOT vegetarian. And dried liver must be the cheapest spource or they would use the stuff made in a vat.
It's pretty easy to find counter examples to that.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:42 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Who?
Don't get your knickers in a knot; I didn't say it was you.

Originally Posted by eerok View Post
My understanding is that humans grew their brains due to the nutrient-density of animal protein. Also the advent of agriculture led to shorter and less healthy people who were prone to rotting teeth and disease (cf the ancient Egyptians). Also the human body is obviously not adapted to veganism, because it requires that you take supplements to make it work over time. Otherwise you do not thrive.

I don't have an argument with vegetarians, who don't eat meat, but who eat eggs, cheese, etc. I think veganism is an abomination, though.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:44 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Don't get your knickers in a knot; I didn't say it was you.
Thank you.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:46 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Thank you.
You're welcome.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:30 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
But it is clear that people in this thread are arguing that the need for supplementation is an argument against veganism ("It's unnatural, man!"), even if you are not doing this.
The primary argument against veganism for me is that you're simply missing out on so much tastiness.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:00 AM   #154
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Heaven forbid that we should get back to the OP, but it seems to me that the minuscule variations they tallied up might be accounted for by individuals eating what they crave for personal metabolic variations.

Let's say that subconsciously you became aware that eating meat makes you feel better. Root cause may be poor absorption. The heart attack is not caused by the beef but by something else related to the absorption problem. Other words: you are not absorbing iron because of IBS. But your brain has found that eating beef helps. But you still would be suffering from other micro-nutrient probs that bring on the heart disease. And perhaps leafy greens trigger bouts of IBS? It's omnivore for that guy.

Then too, the Veggers eat lots of cruciforms; broccoli, cabbage family. Which are loaded with vit K, the klotting vitamin. Our omnivore doesn't get brain clots, but the Veggers do. Coincidence?

Hmmm, I wonder of 23&me did a "vegan gene" variant?
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:07 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The primary argument against veganism for me is that you're simply missing out on so much tastiness.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:33 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Then too, the Veggers eat lots of cruciforms; broccoli, cabbage family. Which are loaded with vit K, the klotting vitamin. Our omnivore doesn't get brain clots, but the Veggers do. Coincidence?

Hmmm, I wonder of 23&me did a "vegan gene" variant?
The strokes in the OP were about brain bleeding, not clotting. And they got fewer strokes than the omnivore group got heart disease. So, advantage vegan/vegetarian in those 2 health issues, not that there aren't plenty more to consider. Vegetarian is obviously far less restrictive and includes animal protein. I also know pescatarians (veggies, dairy, fish included). It's not hard to meal plan without meat but certainly gets harder in the vegan case.

As my ex used to say, everything in moderation - including moderation.
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Old 12th September 2019, 01:34 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
....

I don't know what you mean by "valid argument" in this case, or how you rule that "the only valid argument against X is Y".
Your 2nd straw man in our discussion..
Quote:

But it is clear that people in this thread are arguing that the need for supplementation is an argument against veganism ("It's unnatural, man!"), even if you are not doing this.
It's only clear that one person (eerok), not 'people', made that argument.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:30 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
But it is clear that people in this thread are arguing that the need for supplementation is an argument against veganism ("It's unnatural, man!"), even if you are not doing this.
My hostility toward veganism (not the vegan diet per se) comes from researching it out of genuine curiosity, and finding its advocacy and propaganda to be full of misrepresentations and bad science. That's what makes it an abomination IMO. They politicize and moralize diet, and there is far more ideology to it than fact.

Vegan propaganda claims that eating meat is unnatural and the primary source of many (if not most) serious diseases. In fact genus Homo has been omnivorous for millions of years. We're well-adapted to eat meat; not so much for grains and legumes as staples, since agriculture is only around 15K years old.

This is what causes me to mention the difficulty of the vegan diet to provide complete nutrition. We're pretty clearly adapted to utilize animal fat. I don't mind at all if anyone uses a workaround to sustain a healthy vegan diet -- just be honest about it.

Perhaps this provides the context to clarify what I said.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:08 PM   #159
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One important factor is that there's a lot of evidence that the human body produces its own B12 in the gut, and that for many people this is sufficient for good health. I'm an example of someone who has been a strict vegan for a quarter of a century without ever supplementing B12, and I rarely consume anything fortified with B12 either. Regardless, my B12 levels in blood tests are in the healthy range. That being said, it's probably best that vegans supplement b12 just to be on the safe side, but the B12 issue is overblown, imo, in healthy individuals with healthy digestive systems.
Also, stories of idiotic parents starving their kids are almost completely irrelevant, because ignorant, abusive, or neglectful parents do the same thing to kids on all kinds of diets, it just doesn't make a good headline when it's some random family without the drama of the "vegan" buzzword. There are thousands of healthy, happy vegan children.

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Old 12th September 2019, 05:41 PM   #160
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Quote:
There are thousands of healthy, happy vegan children.
Denying children bacon, is child abuse!
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