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Old 12th September 2019, 08:01 PM   #81
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Your public health is not free, everyone pays in. So manufacturers who promote dangerous products by deceit are costing everyone.

So you say. But the public health epidemiologists are not that stupid, they have not yet found the common denominator culprit other than vaping.
Which is why I said the tax payer

You might want to re-read my answer

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/07/cdc-...-outbreak.html

Quote:
"In many cases, people vaped both nicotine and THC, the marijuana compound that produces a high, the CDC said. Some reported using both THC and e-cigarettes while a smaller group reported using only nicotine."
If it is a few dodgy lung from idiots mixing buying homemade fluids mixed with THC to get the buzz, I really find the benefits greater than cigarettes.

A question for you.

Would you ague everyone who vaps (10s of millions) should go back to smoking?
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:06 PM   #82
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If it were me

I would ban the sale of the bottles of flavour liquid and the bottles of nicotene liquid being sold seperately, that people measure out and make their own actual vapping fluid.

As it is a tad dim.

Just allow pre-measured, pre-bottled vapping fluid, that most people buy
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:07 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If it were me

I would ban the sale of the bottles of flavour liquid and the bottles of nicotene liquid being sold seperately, that people measure out and make their own actual vapping fluid.

As it is a tad dim.

Just allow pre-measured, pre-bottled vapping fluid, that most people buy
That's what they were doing, 'til they changed the laws to make flavored juices illegal, so now they have to be sold separately.
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:42 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
That's what they were doing, 'til they changed the laws to make flavored juices illegal, so now they have to be sold separately.
Then that is dumb
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:07 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
The illnesses and respiratory problems; Does anyone know if they are all related to flavored vaping liquid?

They all seem to be related to people who were buying oil based THC analogues off the street. I haven't seen any reports of standard nicotine vaping juice from reputable sources being involved.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:16 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
They all seem to be related to people who were buying oil based THC analogues off the street. I haven't seen any reports of standard nicotine vaping juice from reputable sources being involved.
Black/grey market Juul pods seem to be the leading candidate on the nic side. The factory ones are quite pricey so kids are buying them elsewhere.
Dumb.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:25 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Why not pot brownies or pot chili?

What about it? Not sure what you are asking.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:26 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
I guess you can agree with at least one Trump overstep.
Smoker, right?
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:27 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Why not pot brownies or pot chili?
Takes a lot longer to get a high.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:41 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Which is why I said the tax payer

You might want to re-read my answer

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/07/cdc-...-outbreak.html



If it is a few dodgy lung from idiots mixing buying homemade fluids mixed with THC to get the buzz, I really find the benefits greater than cigarettes.

A question for you.

Would you ague everyone who vaps (10s of millions) should go back to smoking?
I don't know, when did you stop beating your wife?

That's such a blatant false dichotomy.

Like I said earlier, I'm sure it was easy to miss: It's one thing to use vaping to quit smoking. It's another for the big tobacco companies to use vaping to addict another generation of kids to nicotine.

It seems a number of people in this thread are defending vaping as if it is only used as a replacement for current smokers. It's dishonest to ignore tobacco companies marketing these devices to teens and non-smokers.


The tip of the iceberg is showing. Now people are looking for the rest of it and they are finding lung damage from vaping to be much more widespread than previously known.

And it's foolish to rationalize, it doesn't affect me because I don't [fill in the blank with how your vaping differs from the injured vapers].
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:49 PM   #91
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SG... there are millions of vapers around the globe. Why is this spate of illnesses localised to the US (and partially the THC/CBD marketspace)?
It's not the "vaping". It's (I think) contaminated product.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:24 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
SG... there are millions of vapers around the globe. Why is this spate of illnesses localised to the US (and partially the THC/CBD marketspace)?
It's not the "vaping". It's (I think) contaminated product.
It may not be isolated, confined to the US. It may turn out to be a single thing that changed given I believe vaping has been around a decade. It may be that it takes 10 years to start to show up.

Some folks in the thread are jumping to whichever conclusion suits their need to believe it can't happen to them because ...reasons.

Give public health researchers time to do the epidemiology. We are talking about death and ICU on ventilator serious. No one knows what permanent damage has been done.

My issue, beside the above is why are we letting tobacco companies addict a new generation of teens when the safety is not tested?

Tobacco companies know through research if you don't start smoking by 21 you are very unlikely to smoke. The've done everything to keep marketing to teens despite it being illegal for them to do so.

When I was a teen, all my peers smoked. When my son was in high school, very few of his peers smoked. Society had kicked the habit. Now for a big profit, tobacco companies are re-addicting society.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:45 PM   #93
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CDC: Transcript of September 6, 2019, Telebriefing: Investigation of Pulmonary Disease Among People Who Use E-cigarettes
Quote:
Many of these patients reported recent use of THC-containing products, and some reported using both THC- and nicotine-containing products. A smaller group reported using only nicotine products. No specific e-cigarette device or substance has been linked to all cases, and e-cigarette include a variety of chemical and additives; consumers may not know what these products contain. Particularly, products obtained from social sources or off the street, it is difficult to know what is contained in these e-cigarette products....

At this time, more than 33 states and 1 jurisdiction health departments have reported possible cases of lung illness associated with the use of e-cigarette products and additional states are investigating potential cases. As mentioned by Dr. Arias, 3 deaths have already been reported, and 1 death is under investigation....

... We are aware of over 450 total possible cases, including the 215 already reported.

... At this time, no one device, product, or substance has been linked to all cases.
One of the questioners (news media) said no cases were reported yet in the EU. That does not mean no cases, just none detected yet. The US has an extensive reporting system. I don't know what the EU has. I'm sure they have reporting, just not sure how quickly these cases are being recognized.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:59 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It may not be isolated, confined to the US. It may turn out to be a single thing that changed given I believe vaping has been around a decade. It may be that it takes 10 years to start to show up.

Some folks in the thread are jumping to whichever conclusion suits their need to believe it can't happen to them because ...reasons.

Give public health researchers time to do the epidemiology. We are talking about death and ICU on ventilator serious. No one knows what permanent damage has been done.

My issue, beside the above is why are we letting tobacco companies addict a new generation of teens when the safety is not tested?

Tobacco companies know through research if you don't start smoking by 21 you are very unlikely to smoke. The've done everything to keep marketing to teens despite it being illegal for them to do so.

When I was a teen, all my peers smoked. When my son was in high school, very few of his peers smoked. Society had kicked the habit. Now for a big profit, tobacco companies are re-addicting society.
I don't suppose you actually have some stats which show your mass amount of teens who are taking up vaping with liquid containing nicotene do you?

As otherwise it sounding a bit making mountain out of imaginary mole hill.
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:21 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Smoker, right?
Nope. Never nicotine and very seldom anything else. I just am against the government using its coercive power for political reasons.
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:35 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
... Like I said before, it is heavily regulated here in San Jose. You can't just put whatever you'd like into it because it won't pass testing. The place I work for is making it's own vape cartridges, but they are just buying the extract from a place and filling the cartridges themselves. They're not adding anything to it.
(1) In my experience, cannabis extract must be cut with something to reduce the viscosity in order to work in a vape cartridge e.g. propylene glycol or vegetable glycerin.

(2) When the material is obtained from a "place", that's one more opportunity for shenanigans.

The weed industry isn't unique, in terms of funny business in search of profit. But when you have a demographic predisposed to illegality, it might be worse than other industries.

I own and operate a cannabis company by the way.
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:27 AM   #97
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Who would have thunk that after generations of disease and death caused by inhaling crap into your lungs that inhaling new crap into you lungs would still cause disease and death? It is certainly counter intuitive. The inventor of the e-cigarette was obviously a highly trained individual with only the best intentions in regard to people's health and well being. It's not like they were in it for the money or anything.
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:27 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I don't suppose you actually have some stats which show your mass amount of teens who are taking up vaping with liquid containing nicotene do you?

As otherwise it sounding a bit making mountain out of imaginary mole hill.
Could you quote where you think I said something close to what you think I said?

And maybe reread my post for comprehension? Here's a key part:

"Some folks in the thread are jumping to whichever conclusion suits their need to believe it can't happen to them because ...reasons.

Give public health researchers time to do the epidemiology. ..."
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:31 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Nope. Never nicotine and very seldom anything else. I just am against the government using its coercive power for political reasons.
Did you ever answer my questions?
Is it OK for the vape sellers to lie and claim the products are safe?

Is it OK they be unregulated?

What age is it OK to sell these products to?

Who pays the health costs when dozens of young people end up in ICU from lung damage?
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:15 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Did you ever answer my questions?
Is it OK for the vape sellers to lie and claim the products are safe?

Is it OK they be unregulated?

What age is it OK to sell these products to?

Who pays the health costs when dozens of young people end up in ICU from lung damage?
In NZ they don't

Probably not, but that is a govt issue

Same age as cigs

In NZ the tax payer as we have a public health system to fix idiots making up home made mixed with THC

Do you want e-cigs banned and would you prefer people to go back to smoking?
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:24 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
(1) In my experience, cannabis extract must be cut with something to reduce the viscosity in order to work in a vape cartridge e.g. propylene glycol or vegetable glycerin.

(2) When the material is obtained from a "place", that's one more opportunity for shenanigans.

The weed industry isn't unique, in terms of funny business in search of profit. But when you have a demographic predisposed to illegality, it might be worse than other industries.

I own and operate a cannabis company by the way.

It is added before we receive it apparently. And it must be added before testing. We just started doing this. Some are better than others. Then again, extracts are a little behind flower here as far as regulations go, I think, so not sure how much testing is done to extracts. I don't use them.

If we use tested flower to make pre-roll joints, the joints must be tested again, which seems ridiculous. They are changing procedures all the time though and I expect this will change.

I've never had a pre-roll I really liked, not even close, especially the cheaper ones (or gag, the free ones you get with a purchase). No thanks!

My friend is the owner of this place and he's had it for a long time. I'm not really "into" it, the industry or cannabis. Smoked it most of my life but I'm not a T-shirt wearing stoner. It is not my lifestyle. I grew for eight years.

You are absolutely correct about the industry and shenanigans. That is why there are dozens of cameras in the grow rooms, store and property. But shenanigans still will occur.

I actually hate the industry. And 90% of all weed in San Jose is still sold on the black market. Not much has changed. I would have been happy with the decriminalization of a few plants at home and a little trading between people. I personally don't like the stores and I wish they didn't exist (and I don't wanna derail on that subject).

Back to the topic, I think, as far as nicotine vaping I just don't understand why anyone would ever get started, unless you were a smoker already.

I don't understand the attraction - I guess there must be a coolness factor but I don't see it. I mean a cigarette you can hold in your teeth a certain way or corner of your mouth, flick it away in a super-cool manner, stomp it out, offer one to someone asking, "got a smoke?". You can light it all dramatically before making an important statement.

Vapes just blow up in your pocket! Tobacco sucks, weed is legal wtf Let's get some non-alcoholic wine too.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:54 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
In NZ they don't

Probably not, but that is a govt issue

Same age as cigs

In NZ the tax payer as we have a public health system to fix idiots making up home made mixed with THC

Do you want e-cigs banned and would you prefer people to go back to smoking?
The questions are specifically for Senex. I wasn't asking you yet you've answered for him twice.

Originally Posted by Senex
Make the decision for yourself. This is government overreach.
Those questions specifically address his statement the government shouldn't be involved. So far he's dodged the questions.
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:40 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The questions are specifically for Senex. I wasn't asking you yet you've answered for him twice.

Those questions specifically address his statement the government shouldn't be involved. So far he's dodged the questions.
I apologise if my answering instead didn't meet your preferred outcome.

You keep asking that poster the list of questions demanding only they answer, yet refuse to answer my one question.

Kind of double standards
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:00 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I apologise if my answering instead didn't meet your preferred outcome.

You keep asking that poster the list of questions demanding only they answer, yet refuse to answer my one question.

Kind of double standards
Oh my word! Dude, what are you on about? Double standard? Didn't meet my preferred outcome?

Senex said 'no government controls', that's what the questions address. How would your answers be relevant to Senex's no government controls?



I did answer your question. Maybe you didn't like the answer.

The question:
Quote:
Do you want e-cigs banned and would you prefer people to go back to smoking?
Drum roll:
Quote:
That's such a blatant false dichotomy.
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:36 PM   #105
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From my understanding of the reports, the majority of the sickness/deaths relating to vaping are associated with non-reputable and black-market sources that aren't using the standard ingredients. This isn't, as some are suggesting, people who have been vaping for 10 years who are now getting ill. That may still happen, but it is currently not in evidence.

I'm seeing a lot of propaganda but not so much convincing evidence that vaping poses significant health risks and I'm not supportive of banning things just because some people think they might be unsafe, particularly when we do have evidence that black market products (which will rise to meet the demand) absolutely can be unsafe. And considering actual cigarettes, which again we know are unsafe, would still be legal. Doesn't seem like rational thinking to me.

If the problem is a rise in school kids vaping, then how about stronger enforcement of the age restriction laws that are already in place?
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:56 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh my word! Dude, what are you on about? Double standard? Didn't meet my preferred outcome?

Senex said 'no government controls', that's what the questions address. How would your answers be relevant to Senex's no government controls?



I did answer your question. Maybe you didn't like the answer.

The question:


Drum roll:
I'll take that as vaping very bad but not willing to admit smoking is worse.

Sent from my SM-J111M using Tapatalk
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:09 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
From my understanding of the reports, the majority of the sickness/deaths relating to vaping are associated with non-reputable and black-market sources that aren't using the standard ingredients. This isn't, as some are suggesting, people who have been vaping for 10 years who are now getting ill. That may still happen, but it is currently not in evidence.

I'm seeing a lot of propaganda but not so much convincing evidence that vaping poses significant health risks and I'm not supportive of banning things just because some people think they might be unsafe, particularly when we do have evidence that black market products (which will rise to meet the demand) absolutely can be unsafe. And considering actual cigarettes, which again we know are unsafe, would still be legal. Doesn't seem like rational thinking to me.

If the problem is a rise in school kids vaping, then how about stronger enforcement of the age restriction laws that are already in place?
The thing I find odd about it is factory fluid is so much cheaper than cigs (well here at least) I am surprised there is a black market.

There would be no real monetary "bonanza"

Which I think points more to the THC in the mix than people just making their own nicotene mixes.

It is the pointy finger neon sign glowing odd one out.

Adding a high to vaping apparently is bad.

Tough luck, you were an idiot for buying an unknown thing to rip through your lungs.

Probably would have died of cancer from smoking any way
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:12 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
From my understanding of the reports, the majority of the sickness/deaths relating to vaping are associated with non-reputable and black-market sources that aren't using the standard ingredients. ...
This is the problem I'm trying to point out. You guys are going by rumors, bad news accounts, wishful thinking because it means one wouldn't be affected.

Wait for the medical science.
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:13 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I'll take that as vaping very bad but not willing to admit smoking is worse.
And I take that as your imagination about what other people believe.

How about looking at why your question is a false dichotomy?
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:25 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And I take that as your imagination about what other people believe.

How about looking at why your question is a false dichotomy?

You could just tell me and cut out the headache, trying to work it out.

I get you think vaping is evil because tobacco companys are involved in producing them.

Yet you refuse to say what you think should be the follow on from this logic is.

I would almost argue tobacco industry should be involved as they are probably the most expert at how to inhale substances safely (ignoring the contents). As much as I hate big tobacco and Trump now seems to stick up for them, they have done the most research and want their customers to survive long enough to buy a lot of their product.

I agree they should probably be regulated.

You refuse to admit that the vast majority of cases of weird lung issues are home mix with THC.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:53 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
...
I would almost argue tobacco industry should be involved as they are probably the most expert at how to inhale substances safely (ignoring the contents).
Almost?

What would tip you over?
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:54 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You could just tell me and cut out the headache, trying to work it out.

I get you think vaping is evil because tobacco companys are involved in producing them.

Yet you refuse to say what you think should be the follow on from this logic is.

I would almost argue tobacco industry should be involved as they are probably the most expert at how to inhale substances safely (ignoring the contents). As much as I hate big tobacco and Trump now seems to stick up for them, they have done the most research and want their customers to survive long enough to buy a lot of their product.

I agree they should probably be regulated.

You refuse to admit that the vast majority of cases of weird lung issues are home mix with THC.
I need to explain a false dichotomy? Really?

Let's start with this falsehood first:
Originally Posted by cullennz
I get you think vaping is evil because tobacco companys are involved in producing them.
I don't think vaping is evil. I thought the point of vaping pot eliminated the smoke from burning it. That sounds like a good thing to me.

And if there are fewer harmful chemicals than smoking cigarettes, that's a good thing too.

I don't understand how anyone could have read my posts and missed this:
Originally Posted by SG
... why are we letting tobacco companies addict a new generation of teens when the safety is not tested?

Tobacco companies know through research if you don't start smoking by 21 you are very unlikely to smoke. The've done everything to keep marketing to teens despite it being illegal for them to do so.


Now, false dichotomy, do you need a definition?

False dichotomy
Quote:
A false dichotomy is typically used in an argument to force your opponent into an extreme position -- by making the assumption that there are only two positions.
Your two false choice options:
Originally Posted by cullennz
Would you ague everyone who vaps (10s of millions) should go back to smoking?
Option 1) Yes
Option 2) No

How about neither of those two answers?

Everyone who vapes is not an ex-smoker.
People who vape might very well go back to not vaping, no smoking involved.
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:55 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Almost?

What would tip you over?
Not being such an evil enterprise.

You didn't answer my question yet I still answer yours, go figure.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:00 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I need to explain a false dichotomy? Really?

Let's start with this falsehood first: I don't think vaping is evil. I thought the point of vaping pot eliminated the smoke from burning it. That sounds like a good thing to me.

And if there are fewer harmful chemicals than smoking cigarettes, that's a good thing too.

I don't understand how anyone could have read my posts and missed this:



Now, false dichotomy, do you need a definition?

False dichotomyYour two false choice options:
Option 1) Yes
Option 2) No

How about neither of those two answers?

Everyone who vapes is not an ex-smoker.
People who vape might very well go back to not vaping, no smoking involved.
So now you are saying your whole argument was entirely based on pot?

You forgot to put this fact in the posts I saw.

If it is just pot I agree

Most people who vap are smokers and you have no proof how many of the new ones vap fluid containing nicotene
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:04 PM   #115
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I give up. You completely distort my post. I explain it to you in detail, and you completely distort that.

If you want to have a discussion here, quit making **** up about what you think I said and reply to my quotes exactly as they are on the page. Otherwise, this is nonsense.
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:06 PM   #116
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Relax

If you are just talking about mixing THC I agree
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:08 PM   #117
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BTW

Do you have an example of vaping companies saying it is safe publicly?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:16 PM   #118
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To review, in case it isn't clear:
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
... And the point that keeps being missed is the majority of cases are home mixed with THC.....
That is a news report rumor. The actual data collected by the epidemiologists does not support this.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
... Would you ague everyone who vaps (10s of millions) should go back to smoking?
I did not say this.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I don't suppose you actually have some stats which show your mass amount of teens who are taking up vaping with liquid containing nicotene do you?...
I did not say this.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
.... Do you want e-cigs banned and would you prefer people to go back to smoking?
False dichotomy.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I'll take that as vaping very bad but not willing to admit smoking is worse....
I did not say this.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
...I get you think vaping is evil because tobacco companys are involved in producing them.
I did not say this.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
...You refuse to admit that the vast majority of cases of weird lung issues are home mix with THC.
Why should I admit to this falsehood?

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So now you are saying your whole argument was entirely based on pot?...
I did not say this.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If you are just talking about mixing THC I agree
I did not say this.
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:18 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
BTW

Do you have an example of vaping companies saying it is safe publicly?
It's an easy Google search. Here is one example:
FDA Says Juul Can't Claim to Be Safer Than Cigarettes - Regulators say Juul hasn't proved its claim that e-cigarettes are safer than tobacco, and uses misleading appeals to kids.
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:43 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Thank you

If reported correctly the person is an idiot
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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