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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 13th September 2019, 04:12 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
<snip>

So the question I ask, is, has it ever been officially defined in the USA what it takes for a person to be considered "Native American". If it hasn't, then there are no ground rules, and ANY Native American ancestry would count.

<snip>

The son of the above-mentioned ancestor was captured by an Abenaki tribe when he was twenty four and adopted by the tribe's chief.

I wonder if that would be enough.
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Old 13th September 2019, 04:14 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
If he's dead or in a coma, he will stop talking and tweeting. That's the only difference, but it would be noticeable (and a big improvement).

He already has (at least) a team tweeting for him. Getting a stand-in for his speeches would be easy.

Any discrepancies would be written off as 'fake news'.

He could have gone into a coma last year. How would we be sure?

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Old 13th September 2019, 04:44 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yet we have people in this country who claim Maori tribal ancestral heritage with as little as 1/32nd. Keeping it simple, this means that if such a person had only ONE full Maori ancestor five generations back (A great, great, great grandparent), they would be claiming to be Maori. Is this dishonest? No, it isn't because it has been officially defined.
I've always understood that I'm 1/16 English and I'm fairly sure this is true. On top of which, I have a decidedly English surname. I'm 3/4 Jewish. If I self-identified as English I'd be lying. Tip tip tally ho?

We're not talking long form vaguery, as if Warren was opining on her background. Her self-identification was unary and specific.

I don't know what it means to be an official Maori. I do know, however, that a person who is 1/32 ethnic Maori (or has a reason to think so) who claims their race is Maori, period, is not being truthful.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:47 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I do know, however, that a person who is 1/32 ethnic Maori (or has a reason to think so) who claims their race is Maori, period, is not being truthful.
There are scenarios in which I would agree that and scenarios in which I would not. See also, there is no such thing as biological race. We continue to collect data on it, forcing people to indicate categories for continuous data and for millions of people there is nuance to their answer. (See also, though irrelevant to the Cherokee, Warren's genetic analysis revealed her to have had one or more Native American ancestors several generations back which is consistent with her family lore.)

I do know, however, that a person who has apologized for a foolish transgression and received forgiveness from the people hurt by that transgression does not need to be continually punished for it by folks on the sidelines who were unaffected by the transgression.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:06 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
There are scenarios in which I would agree that and scenarios in which I would not. See also, there is no such thing as biological race. We continue to collect data on it, forcing people to indicate categories for continuous data and for millions of people there is nuance to their answer. (See also, though irrelevant to the Cherokee, Warren's genetic analysis revealed her to have had one or more Native American ancestors several generations back which is consistent with her family lore.)

I do know, however, that a person who has apologized for a foolish transgression and received forgiveness from the people hurt by that transgression does not need to be continually punished for it by folks on the sidelines who were unaffected by the transgression.
Agreed. Get over it, people. Meanwhile.....Trump's father was still not born in Germany. And his family lore never said so.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:16 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post

I do know, however, that a person who has apologized for a foolish transgression and received forgiveness from the people hurt by that transgression does not need to be continually punished for it by folks on the sidelines who were unaffected by the transgression.
I disagree
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:47 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
...I do know, however, that a person who has apologized for a foolish transgression and received forgiveness from the people hurt by that transgression does not need to be continually punished for it by folks on the sidelines who were unaffected by the transgression.
It's telling that setting the record straight on a simple factual matter -- a fact that some fans have proven unable to grasp -- is something you consider undue "punishment" for Warren. What a sorry joke.
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:53 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed. Get over it, people. Meanwhile.....Trump's father was still not born in Germany. And his family lore never said so.
I tell you what. When posters stop misrepresenting what happened, I'll get over it.

Sheesh.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:30 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's telling that setting the record straight on a simple factual matter -- a fact that some fans have proven unable to grasp -- is something you consider undue "punishment" for Warren.
That's not what he said.
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I tell you what. When posters stop misrepresenting what happened, I'll get over it.
Can you be specific about someone misreprepreseting what she did here?
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:24 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's telling that setting the record straight on a simple factual matter -- a fact that some fans have proven unable to grasp -- is something you consider undue "punishment" for Warren. What a sorry joke.
Warren already set the record straight. She said she was Native; she IS Native. She acknowledged that she was wrong to have insinuated that she was more Tribally connected than she is (which is essentially zero) and has apologized to the Cherokee for that. The Cherokee have accepted her apology.

Whatever record-straightening you think you're doing is unnecessary fantasy.
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:36 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Warren already set the record straight. She said she was Native; she IS Native. She acknowledged that she was wrong to have insinuated that she was more Tribally connected than she is (which is essentially zero) and has apologized to the Cherokee for that. The Cherokee have accepted her apology.

Whatever record-straightening you think you're doing is unnecessary fantasy.
She is not native.
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:20 AM   #92
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It strikes me that the facts are relatively clear and generally accepted by all the posters in this thread. The only remaining question is how one views those facts in assessing Warren's character and appropriateness for office. The facts don't bother me much, nor apparently most of the other posters here. I like her. But these same facts do bother a few of the members here. Okay, but it seems to me that no amount of further posting will likely change these subjective views. Yet the thread will continue...
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:14 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
His mother is from the Hebrides right?
Isle of Harris.
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:27 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
As both of my maternal great grandparents were German citizens, were born in Germany, spoke German and emigrated from Germany, my family always thought they were...well...German. Nuh uh. Turns out they were both of Danish ancestry as my genealogical research and DNA revealed.

Husband's family claimed direct descent from William Penn. Even said so in newspaper clippings from old obituaries. Husband's family is Mormon so they have A LOT of genealogy info. Turns out they couldn't possibly be Penn's descendants as his descendants have been documented very well and none of my husband's ancestors is among them. Turns out the family story got skewed: they descend from a sister of the woman who married Penn. But does that mean my husband's family were lying? Nope. It's what they believe and that misinformation is still being passed down in the family lore.
He'd be related via Penn and his wife being a sister of your husband's ancestor, of the Great Aunt variety.

For example in the days when Finland (as part of Sweden) was Catholic none of the priests and bishops were supposed to marry procreate, yet it is known many of the early bishops did have children, maybe claimed it was their brother's/sister's to get around the Pope. Anyway, the earliest Bishop of Åbo (Turku), Konrad Bitz, had a grandmother whose daughter (his mother's sister) is my direct ancestor.

Quote:
Conrad Henricus Bids is your first cousin 14 times removed.
Likewise another famous Bishop, Magnus Tawast likewise is an avuncular direct ascendent.
Quote:
Bishop Magnus Olofsson Tawast is your 16th great uncle.
The point, uncles and aunts are pretty close relatives as they are the siblings of one's parents: pretty much the same genes, so your husband is not incorrect, if Penn and his wife had offspring, to make the wife's sister's children first cousins.
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:33 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
There are scenarios in which I would agree that and scenarios in which I would not. See also, there is no such thing as biological race. We continue to collect data on it, forcing people to indicate categories for continuous data and for millions of people there is nuance to their answer. (See also, though irrelevant to the Cherokee, Warren's genetic analysis revealed her to have had one or more Native American ancestors several generations back which is consistent with her family lore.)

I do know, however, that a person who has apologized for a foolish transgression and received forgiveness from the people hurt by that transgression does not need to be continually punished for it by folks on the sidelines who were unaffected by the transgression.
Seriously though, Warren was cheating. Not much different from that woman recently jailed for 14 days for changing her daughter's entrance exam marks to get her into an Ivy League college.
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:56 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Seriously though, Warren was cheating. Not much different from that woman recently jailed for 14 days for changing her daughter's entrance exam marks to get her into an Ivy League college.
Outside of the whole "breaking the law" thing, of course.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:03 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Seriously though, Warren was cheating.
She messed up, no question. I've been saying so for pages and pages. This is too subtle for some of the great critical thinkers here, evidently.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not much different from that woman recently jailed for 14 days for changing her daughter's entrance exam marks to get her into an Ivy League college.
Very much different. Warren is indeed Native, consistent with her family lore and confirmed via genetic analysis. These are material facts of the issue that are for some reason unrecognized by some participants in this discussion. Unless there is some investigation that reveals Warren's genetic sample was submitted by someone else in an effort to confirm her claims of Native ancestry, there's no "cheating."

The other place where the analogy fails is in the purpose and the result. Warren's big screw-up was in allowing her family lore and ultimately a DNA test to dictate her ethnic identity. This is wrong, unequivocally. She was (rightfully) ripped a new one for it by the Cherokee but has apologized and worked to make amends and the Cherokee have accepted her apology.

At no point, however, have her (legitimate) claims of Native ancestry helped to advance her career. This fact was testified to by officials at Harvard and it played no role in her acceptance to the Texas Bar. If anything, her foolish self-identification as Native for a good chunk of her career has cost her far more than it ever could have helped her.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:24 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
She messed up, no question. I've been saying so for pages and pages. This is too subtle for some of the great critical thinkers here, evidently.


Very much different. Warren is indeed Native, consistent with her family lore and confirmed via genetic analysis. These are material facts of the issue that are for some reason unrecognized by some participants in this discussion. Unless there is some investigation that reveals Warren's genetic sample was submitted by someone else in an effort to confirm her claims of Native ancestry, there's no "cheating."

The other place where the analogy fails is in the purpose and the result. Warren's big screw-up was in allowing her family lore and ultimately a DNA test to dictate her ethnic identity. This is wrong, unequivocally. She was (rightfully) ripped a new one for it by the Cherokee but has apologized and worked to make amends and the Cherokee have accepted her apology.

At no point, however, have her (legitimate) claims of Native ancestry helped to advance her career. This fact was testified to by officials at Harvard and it played no role in her acceptance to the Texas Bar. If anything, her foolish self-identification as Native for a good chunk of her career has cost her far more than it ever could have helped her.
Not consistent with family lore. Her lore included several claims that are not consistent with the dna test. High cheekbones?
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:34 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It strikes me that the facts are relatively clear and generally accepted by all the posters in this thread. The only remaining question is how one views those facts in assessing Warren's character and appropriateness for office. The facts don't bother me much, nor apparently most of the other posters here. I like her. But these same facts do bother a few of the members here. Okay, but it seems to me that no amount of further posting will likely change these subjective views. Yet the thread will continue...
It seems to be the only objection people can raise to a Warren presidency. Considering every single other candidate has baggage far worse this business is more of a recommendation to vote for Warren than it is argument for voting against her!
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:38 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It seems to be the only objection people can raise to a Warren presidency. Considering every single other candidate has baggage far worse this business is more of a recommendation to vote for Warren than it is argument for voting against her!
Or maybe don't vote.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:41 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Or maybe don't vote.
In your case you definitely shouldn't vote.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:45 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
In your case you definitely shouldn't vote.
I vote whatever my wife tells me to vote for.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:48 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I vote whatever my wife tells me to vote for.
That woman must be the personification of saintly patience.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:07 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I disagree

The NC GOP lie, saying there will be no morning vote on a budget veto and then, while some GOP Democrats are out remembering 9/11, the GOP go ahead and vote on it anyway. You claim this is only fair, because a play-action pass (also a deception) is legal in football.

I've never even seen evidence that Warren was lying, at worst she was merely wrong, but for the sake of argument let's assume she actually was lying. But hey! Bluffing is OK in poker (not to mention the previously mentioned play-action pass), therefore this does not disqualify Warren from the Presidency.

Wait, let me predict your response/defense: "I, BtC, don't care about being consistent".
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:32 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
The NC GOP lie, saying there will be no morning vote on a budget veto and then, while some GOP Democrats are out remembering 9/11, the GOP go ahead and vote on it anyway. You claim this is only fair, because a play-action pass (also a deception) is legal in football.

I've never even seen evidence that Warren was lying, at worst she was merely wrong, but for the sake of argument let's assume she actually was lying. But hey! Bluffing is OK in poker (not to mention the previously mentioned play-action pass), therefore this does not disqualify Warren from the Presidency.

Wait, let me predict your response/defense: "I, BtC, don't care about being consistent".
I think what the NC legislature did was morally wrong. I only defended it because the OP requested for people to try and defend it.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:45 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think what the NC legislature did was morally wrong. I only defended it because the OP requested for people to try and defend it.

It wasn't an order and you didn't do a very good job.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:45 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It strikes me that the facts are relatively clear and generally accepted by all the posters in this thread. The only remaining question is how one views those facts in assessing Warren's character and appropriateness for office. The facts don't bother me much, nor apparently most of the other posters here. I like her. But these same facts do bother a few of the members here. Okay, but it seems to me that no amount of further posting will likely change these subjective views. Yet the thread will continue...
Agree.

Kennedy and Clinton were womanizing pricks
Nixon was a lying crook
Reagan suffered the onset of Alzheimer's while still in office
George Bush Sr was an uncharged war criminal
George Bush Jr knowingly started a war based on intelligence he knew was false
Trump is a malignant narcissist and a pathological liar, inter alia

None of these things, apparently, are disqualifying to being POTUS, but believing your family's oral history and as a result being goaded by the Racist in Chief into taking a DNA test, when she probably ought to have known it was ill advised to do so and might offend a very small number of people, and then apologising to those people and being forgiven by them, is disqualifying?

As our thankfully departed oversized canine troll used to say.......'K.
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Old 14th September 2019, 03:01 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It wasn't an order and you didn't do a very good job.
It wasn't an order, but I was happy to fulfill the request.

I would never claim to do a good job.
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:36 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It strikes me that the facts are relatively clear and generally accepted by all the posters in this thread.
Not really. There is a steady stream of obfuscation/minimization, such as the recent suggestion that her lie is somehow comparable with a non Irish person wearing green on St Patrick's day. Or that her self-identification was something other than a clear, unary declaration. Or that the very definition of dishonesty doesn't include victim-less lies.
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:59 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Not really. There is a steady stream of obfuscation/minimization, such as the recent suggestion that her lie is somehow comparable with a non Irish person wearing green on St Patrick's day. Or that her self-identification was something other than a clear, unary declaration. Or that the very definition of dishonesty doesn't include victim-less lies.
Or equivalent to an actual federal crime.
Quote:
Seriously though, Warren was cheating. Not much different from that woman recently jailed for 14 days for changing her daughter's entrance exam marks to get her into an Ivy League college.
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:16 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Not really. There is a steady stream of obfuscation/minimization, such as the recent suggestion that her lie is somehow comparable with a non Irish person wearing green on St Patrick's day. Or that her self-identification was something other than a clear, unary declaration. Or that the very definition of dishonesty doesn't include victim-less lies.
But did she actually lie?

During 1982 I was on a working holiday in the UK. I applied for a number of jobs during the time I was there, a few of which were in Scotland (mostly things like bar staff in Edinburgh Pubs etc). Hypothetically, lets say that the application forms had a checkbox which said something like "Are you Scottish by either birth or descent?"

Now given that I told you about my family story in Post #48 (and you must have read it because you replied in Post #51) and given that DNA testing hadn't been invented yet, and everyone in the family, including me, beleived it to be true, then do you think I would have been cheating, lying or being dishonest if I ticked that box?

If you think yes, then please justify that answer.

If you think no, then explain how that is any different from what Warren did?
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:32 PM   #112
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He'd be related via Penn and his wife being a sister of your husband's ancestor, of the Great Aunt variety.

For example in the days when Finland (as part of Sweden) was Catholic none of the priests and bishops were supposed to marry procreate, yet it is known many of the early bishops did have children, maybe claimed it was their brother's/sister's to get around the Pope. Anyway, the earliest Bishop of Åbo (Turku), Konrad Bitz, had a grandmother whose daughter (his mother's sister) is my direct ancestor.



Likewise another famous Bishop, Magnus Tawast likewise is an avuncular direct ascendent. The point, uncles and aunts are pretty close relatives as they are the siblings of one's parents: pretty much the same genes, so your husband is not incorrect, if Penn and his wife had offspring, to make the wife's sister's children first cousins.
No. I didn't say the weren't in some way related. The family story is that they are direct descendants of Penn. They are in no way biologically related to Penn and certainly not direct descendants.

But thanks for explaining about 'related through marriage'. I've never have understood the concept otherwise.

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Old 14th September 2019, 06:35 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Seriously though, Warren was cheating. Not much different from that woman recently jailed for 14 days for changing her daughter's entrance exam marks to get her into an Ivy League college.
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Outside of the whole "breaking the law" thing, of course.
Trebuchet, stop nitpicking unimportant details such as one being totally illegal and one not.
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:06 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Not really. There is a steady stream of obfuscation/minimization, such as the recent suggestion that her lie is somehow comparable with a non Irish person wearing green on St Patrick's day. Or that her self-identification was something other than a clear, unary declaration. Or that the very definition of dishonesty doesn't include victim-less lies.
But these points involve much exactly what I stated, our individual interpretations of what the accepted facts mean in terms of our views of Warren.

But JJ as much as I hate to prolong this thread even further, your post does go further by stating "facts" in contraction to my understanding of the actual situation. Is it a lie if Warren (and most of her family) believed it? That would be a misunderstanding, not a lie. But even more her DNA test actually proved it was not a lie at all; it was true, but just not enough " true" to meet your own opinion of how much Native American you feel would qualify her. That is your opinion. And I if she included this as something to be proud of and ad part of her self identification, who are you (or who am I) to deny her this? I identify as Jewish yet there are many other more Orthodox Jews who believe I am not Jewish enough to do so. Screw them!
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:36 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Or equivalent to an actual federal crime.
By all means, take that up with the poster.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:48 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
But did she actually lie?

During 1982 I was on a working holiday in the UK. I applied for a number of jobs during the time I was there, a few of which were in Scotland (mostly things like bar staff in Edinburgh Pubs etc). Hypothetically, lets say that the application forms had a checkbox which said something like "Are you Scottish by either birth or descent?"

Now given that I told you about my family story in Post #48 (and you must have read it because you replied in Post #51) and given that DNA testing hadn't been invented yet, and everyone in the family, including me, beleived it to be true, then do you think I would have been cheating, lying or being dishonest if I ticked that box?

If you think yes, then please justify that answer.

If you think no, then explain how that is any different from what Warren did?
No you weren't lying. But no, your scenario isn't parallel.

As I explained before, in no way do I blame Warren for misunderstanding family lore. I accept her understanding that she was 1/32 NA when really she was actually 1/64. This is utterly meaningless. The lie was stating her race as "American Indian" when she knew (incorrectly) she was only 1/32.

Warren knew that her race was not "American Indian" yet she claimed it was. You did nothing of the sort.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:54 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
But these points involve much exactly what I stated, our individual interpretations of what the accepted facts mean in terms of our views of Warren.

But JJ as much as I hate to prolong this thread even further, your post does go further by stating "facts" in contraction to my understanding of the actual situation. Is it a lie if Warren (and most of her family) believed it? That would be a misunderstanding, not a lie. But even more her DNA test actually proved it was not a lie at all; it was true, but just not enough " true" to meet your own opinion of how much Native American you feel would qualify her. That is your opinion. And I if she included this as something to be proud of and ad part of her self identification, who are you (or who am I) to deny her this? I identify as Jewish yet there are many other more Orthodox Jews who believe I am not Jewish enough to do so. Screw them!
Well, this makes it easier to pursue our angle of discussion, because now it's you playing fast and easy with the facts.

Warren isn't delusional. She knew that her race was not "American Indian" yet she claimed it was. That's a lie.
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Old 15th September 2019, 03:03 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I identify as Jewish yet there are many other more Orthodox Jews who believe I am not Jewish enough to do so. Screw them!
How Jewish are you? My mom is Jewish and my dad's mom is Jewish. (Both secular.) Will the Orthodox let me in?
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Old 15th September 2019, 03:33 AM   #119
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Warren impresses me as sincere. I believe her when she says...

Originally Posted by Warren
Like anyone who’s being honest with themselves, I know that I have made mistakes. I am sorry for harm I have caused.
What mistakes? Thinking she was 1/32 NA when really she was 1/64? That's not something to apologize for. That didn't cause any harm. She knows full well what her mistake was. She lied about her race.

To be clear... I'd be utterly, positively delighted if Warren winds up as POTUS. I'm concerned about candidate Warren though.
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:42 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
To be clear... I'd be utterly, positively delighted if Warren winds up as POTUS. I'm concerned about candidate Warren though.
Yeah. It'll be all Pocahontas, all day, every day. LOCK HER UP!
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