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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 17th September 2019, 04:05 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah. I've known a couple of viscous narcissists in my life, and they blow a fuse if you just talk down to them. I honestly doubt Biden has what it takes to rattle the guy, though. Hillary did. He was scared of her. In the back of his mind, he's aware of it when he's in the presence of someone significantly more intelligent than himself, I suspect (he probably frames it in his mind as dealing with someone with more "booksmarts", or something like that.)
I think Trump is extra intimidated by smart people who happen to be female.
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Old 17th September 2019, 04:16 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I expected that you would see what I wrote in response to other posters. Warren wasn't opining on her fractional background. She specifically claimed a racial identity. She knew full well she wasn't an "American Indian" yet claimed she was.
Given what other posters have responded to you, racial identity isn't that simple, and you're not in her head.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
False. She "knew" (incorrectly) that she was 1/32.
And how much do you need to be NA?
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Old 17th September 2019, 06:19 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Given what other posters have responded to you, racial identity isn't that simple, and you're not in her head.
And it gets even more complicated when people conflate tribal membership with race.

We're not in her head, nor are we in Rachel D's head, nor are we in Trump's head. That doesn't mean we can't reasonably suss out lies.

Further, I interpret at least some of the responses to me as prompted by (political) tribalism, not racial complexity.

Quote:
And how much do you need to be NA?
I've offered my opinion on this in post 180. In addition... I don't know what the optimal speed limit is for a particular street in my neighborhood. But I know that 60 mph is way too fast. Similarly, I don't know what the threshold should be for in order for someone to legitimately claim to be a certain race. But it's more than 1/32. (Which to be clear, was her approximate, incorrect understanding of her makeup.)

You didn't even try to answer my question about Rachel D.
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Old 17th September 2019, 06:30 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
How would she be aware of it without a DNA test to be sure? And don't tell me "her family tree" because every damn one in her family tree would have the same uncertainty she has.

Quit whining to me that you can't back your position up. LOL! As if you thought your obvious logical fallacies would go unnoticed by me...

http://m.quickmeme.com/img/c7/c7c155...35f8e2e463.jpg


...and now that I've called you out on them you fail to produce.


I won't hold my breath.

Man you just can't admit you're wrong, can you?
I'm continuously unimpressed by your arguments -- both form and substance -- and I doubt we're going to further anyone's understanding of anything with our dialog.
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Old 17th September 2019, 07:20 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
And it gets even more complicated when people conflate tribal membership with race.
You can still honestly identify as X even if a group of X doesn't recognise you. I'm sorry but you have not demonstrated to any reasonable degree that she was being deceptive.

Quote:
You didn't even try to answer my question about Rachel D.
Because I honestly don't give a **** about her.
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Old 17th September 2019, 07:33 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I'm not really upset with anyone in particular, just more frustrated that this is politics now.

No high-minded discussions of values and ideals; no reasoned debate on the merits and flaws of different strategies to accomplish goals; no working out a compromise that works for everyone. Instead we worry about inconsequential, isolated actions half a lifetime ago and everything is PR and image control.

Of course, it's probably mostly my own perception that it was ever different. I'm sure we'll find cave paintings accusing Og of being a Cro-Magnon lover, and thus unfit to be chief.

Just let me be crotchety, dammit!
Oh bloody typical Og derangement syndrome that was never proven and anyway even if he did pay her a mammoth hide it doesn't mean anything, I thought you liberals were all for free-love!
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Old 17th September 2019, 07:39 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You can still honestly identify as X even if a group of X doesn't recognise you. I'm sorry but you have not demonstrated to any reasonable degree that she was being deceptive.


Because I honestly don't give a **** about her.
Or maybe answering the question would reveal weaknesses in your argument concerning Warren.

I wasn't particularly impressed by your question either. It mattered to you though, seeing as you bothered to ask it. So I replied as a matter of simple courtesy.

We're peers attempting dialog, not inquisitor/ subject. You seem to get confused by this concept with some frequency.
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Old 17th September 2019, 07:49 AM   #248
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We seem to be stuck in a loop:

"Warren's not an Indian!"
"Yeah, we know."
"But she's not!"
"And?"
"Listen, you don't get it: she's not an Indian!"
"Yes, we agree. She's not an Indian."
"Why won't you understand she's not an Indian!"

Another 50 pages and it'll start getting old.
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Old 17th September 2019, 07:55 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You can still honestly identify as X even if a group of X doesn't recognise you. I'm sorry but you have not demonstrated to any reasonable degree that she was being deceptive.
Whether or not the group recognizes is immaterial so far as I'm concerned. I align with Joe in this regard.
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Old 17th September 2019, 08:22 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm continuously unimpressed by your arguments -- both form and substance -- and I doubt we're going to further anyone's understanding of anything with our dialog.

Actually, you've convinced me you're incapable of recognizing a good argument.

You continue to use the fact of her DNA analysis (what was it, one or two years ago?) as "evidence" that she was lying.....30 years ago. It would be funny were it not so inept and absurd.

And then you're fixated on "1/32". I'll take your word for it that that was her estimation of her NA ancestry 30 years ago. But get this: 1) As I've previously mentioned, 1/32 can absolutely be a plurality of her ethnicity. You claim it wasn't but...............that wasn't known until 30 years later!!!, 2) Then you claim she should have known 31/32 of her background. Again, what a laugh. Would you expect her to know the percentage breakdown of each? How could she possibly know if the percentage of ethnicity A is greater or less than ethnicity B without the DNA test that came 30 years later? She might know she has some Briton or English or German or Komi or whatever; how would you expect her to know if each of those is > or < than 1/32. Oh, and let's not forget the 1/32 we speak of was merely an estimate: At the time in question there is nothing to contradict the possibility that her NA ancestry was more than 1/32.

Every bit of that is solid logic, my friend. Disagree? Kindly point out where I'm wrong. Oh, not that I expect you to, preferring instead to resort to whining and complaining and simply giving up on defending a position you can't defend. Which you've already begun to do. LOL!

You just refuse to learn or admit you're wrong.

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Old 17th September 2019, 08:30 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I often put the wrong date of birth on internet forms because:

(a) you have to protect yourself from identity theft (I know people who lie about their mother's maiden name for this reason)

(b) usually it is none of their business.

However, if I lie about my age in order to gain an advantage I am not entitled to, then that is deception.
That's my point. If we have reason to think that Warren was knowingly angling for an unwarrented advantage then that's an ethical issue. And failing to own up to that in the present would be an ethical issue as well.

But if, as she suggested, she just wanted to hang out with some Native American Lawyers (unless there is reason to think she expected some career advantage from doing so) then it's a kind of a weird misstep, but not a dishonest action.

Her participation in an earlier cookbook suggests some sincerity on a desire to connect culturally with her NA roots, which to some extent corroborates her explanation.

But if someone were to show that those forms she filled out were used in ways likely to give hiring advantages and that Warren was aware of that, it would be an ethical issue. Given how 1/3 of the country, including people with a lot of money to spend would love to make Warren look bad right now, I think that if that evidence exists, then we either would have seen it already, or it's being saved for the campaign.
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Old 17th September 2019, 08:56 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Whether or not the group recognizes is immaterial so far as I'm concerned. I align with Joe in this regard.
It's not so much that the group recognizes her or not (whatever the hell that even means in this context) it's that either we're talking actual biological percentage of an actual ethnic group, which you can't just "Nope doesn't count because some other members of that ethnic group say so" OR we're talking membership is some exclusive. Not both and not one or the other only when it's convenient.

If Warren is X percentage Native Americans is not up for debate; it's an objective fact that either is or is no true. You can't No True Scotsman Warren in this context anymore then an Irish person can just declare another Irish person "Not really Irish" because they don't like Guinness or the color green or whatever. Some Native American council of elders can't override genetics.

Membership in some tribe is different, but essentially meaningless since Warren didn't claim membership in some tribe on a form, she just claimed the vaguer concept of Native American ethnicity of some degree.
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Old 17th September 2019, 09:28 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Or maybe answering the question would reveal weaknesses in your argument concerning Warren.
I'm sure you'd like to think so.

I can see that you're frustrated by your interactions with the others, but don't take it out on me.

Quote:
I wasn't particularly impressed by your question either.
Oh, please. If Warren really believed her family stories, true or not, she wasn't lying by responding to the question the way she did. It's really that simple.

Quote:
We're peers attempting dialog, not inquisitor/ subject. You seem to get confused by this concept with some frequency.
What are you babbling about? If one 'peer' asks a question that goes ignored or is answered in an unsatisfactory manner, do they not get to press for a response that is? Since when do you define how discusions here should be conducted?
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Old 17th September 2019, 09:37 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
But if someone were to show that those forms she filled out were used in ways likely to give hiring advantages and that Warren was aware of that, it would be an ethical issue.

Note that at least one job application of hers (where affirmative action might have come in to play) has been found and she identified as white or Caucasian (I don't remember exact wording) there.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:03 AM   #255
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Sometimes a thread actually progresses, facts are presented and discussed, and some reasonable conclusions are reached. This thread is one of them and I have learned a lot from it.

Sometimes at that point interest in further posting will diminish because there is nothing more to add and the thread just fades away.

But sometimes a poster or two just won't let it go. Great if they continue to bring up new information or insights. But often it is just a repetition of posts made many pages earlier. Sometimes pages of what appeared to be points of common agreement are suddenly ignored in the process and the whole discussion starts over from zero, turning the thread into an endless infinite loop like something from a time travel movie.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:09 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Sometimes a thread actually progresses, facts are presented and discussed, and some reasonable conclusions are reached. This thread is one of them and I have learned a lot from it.

Sometimes at that point interest in further posting will diminish because there is nothing more to add and the thread just fades away.

But sometimes a poster or two just won't let it go. Great if they continue to bring up new information or insights. But often it is just a repetition of posts made many pages earlier. Sometimes pages of what appeared to be points of common agreement are suddenly ignored in the process and the whole discussion starts over from zero, turning the thread into an endless infinite loop like something from a time travel movie.
At least in a movie there's a chance of seeing an attractive person with their shirt off.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:36 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We seem to be stuck in a loop:

"Warren's not an Indian!"
"Yeah, we know."
"But she's not!"
"And?"
"Listen, you don't get it: she's not an Indian!"
"Yes, we agree. She's not an Indian."
"Why won't you understand she's not an Indian!"

Another 50 pages and it'll start getting old.
Warren understood she wasn't an Indian.

Warren claimed to be an Indian anyway.

---

For me, it's not so much about Warren's minor diversity peccadillos. It's more about the clownery that is diversity politics in general. I think the clearest expression of the problem, in Warren's case, is Harvard's celebrating her as a Native American faculty member.

If bringing diverse viewpoints to our institutions is truly important, then Harvard should never have reported her as a Native American. If she was thinking about the value of diversity in academia, or in the workplace, she never would have made the claim. It's offensive. It's offensive to her. It's offensive to the institution. It's offensive to actual Native Americans. It's offensive to everyone being called upon to take diversity seriously.

What exactly is the purpose of diversity? Did Warren's occasional claims of Native American status further that purpose? If so, then this country is messed up in the head about diversity. If not, then Warren herself is messed up in the head about diversity. Or was at the time. Perhaps she's gotten better.

It seems like a lot of Warren's defenders want this to be narrowly about rehabilitating her image. But for me, it's mostly about what the eff is going on with diversity politics that any of this seemed like a good idea to anyone at any point?
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:36 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Warren understood she wasn't an Indian.
Wait, did she now?
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:46 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wait, did she now?
Yep.

She's obviously too smart have ever thought she was Native American. An ancestor? Sure. Heritage? Obviously not. "I am Native American" on an application form? She's not stupid enough to believe that.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:49 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Warren understood she wasn't an Indian.

Warren claimed to be an Indian anyway.
Agreed. And she now knows she was wrong, has apologized for it, and the tribe in question has accepted her apology. It was a Very Special Episode and Blossom learned a Valuable Lesson.

So what's the fuss about it still? If you think the misdeeds was so heinous Warren should never be forgiven, fine, that's certainly an opinion you can have. But other people can and have moved on from it. Continual surprise at this is somewhat ridiculous. It's the "but her emails!" of Warren. Those who could be persuaded by that already have been, the remainder have already rejected it.

Again, this is exceptionally weak sauce and if this is the worst that can be held against Warren she's practically a saint. Hell, Trump can't even mention this criticism without being worse than it himself because he keeps saying "Pocahontas".

Even more ridiculous is attempting to use this as ammunition in a case against the ideals of diversity.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:51 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Agreed. And she now knows she was wrong, has apologized for it, and the tribe in question has accepted her apology. It was a Very Special Episode and Blossom learned a Valuable Lesson.

So what's the fuss about it still?
Too bad you stopped reading my post where you did.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:53 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Too bad you stopped reading my post where you did.
I read it, but this thread is about Warren and not the philosophy of diversity.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:08 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I read it, but this thread is about Warren and not the philosophy of diversity.
For me, the question of Warren's claims about her ancestry is a question of the philosophy of diversity.

And for me, it's less important what Warren thinks about her own ancestry (then or now), and more important what Warren thinks about self-identity and diversity policy in America.

As a presidential candidate who has in the past played fast and loose with diversity, and who is now taking the approach of "I apologized, what more do you want?", it seems like a relevant question. I'd like to see her give a coherent explanation of her administration's diversity policy, and her philosophy of diversity that informs it.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:10 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yep.

She's obviously too smart have ever thought she was Native American. An ancestor? Sure. Heritage? Obviously not. "I am Native American" on an application form? She's not stupid enough to believe that.
Argument from incredulity.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:11 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
For me, the question of Warren's claims about her ancestry is a question of the philosophy of diversity.

And for me, it's less important what Warren thinks about her own ancestry (then or now), and more important what Warren thinks about self-identity and diversity policy in America.

As a presidential candidate who has in the past played fast and loose with diversity, and who is now taking the approach of "I apologized, what more do you want?", it seems like a relevant question. I'd like to see her give a coherent explanation of her administration's diversity policy, and her philosophy of diversity that informs it.
No doubt you demand the same of all the candidates, right? Because you're genuinely concerned about diversity and not just manufacturing an excuse to attack one particular candidate.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:12 PM   #266
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However, where diversity mattered, didn't she mark herself as white/caucasian?

Ancestry and tribal membership are separate issues. They used to be entirely distinct before tribes started requiring an ancestor on a list, when anyone could join the tribe if they put the work in. Meeting up with some lawyer students who were part of tribes could well have been the first step for Warren to get connected to a tribe, if it had gone anywhere.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:13 PM   #267
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White woman claims to be Native American, but it's okay, because nothing came of it.

But is it really okay?

Isn't the point that something should come of identifying as Native American? What about actual Native Americans? Isn't their status as actual Native Americans supposed to mean something?

Why is it important that she apologize, if the claim is meaningless? Why is it important that whatever tribe accepted her apology, if the claim is meaningless? Is the tribe just perpetuating the entire meaningless Native American cosplay that Warren indulged in? Or is there more to it than that?
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:14 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Argument from incredulity.
Yep. I'm okay with that, in this situation. Feel free to reach a different conclusion for yourself.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:14 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
White woman claims to be Native American, but it's okay, because nothing came of it.

But is it really okay?

Isn't the point that something should come of identifying as Native American? What about actual Native Americans? Isn't their status as actual Native Americans supposed to mean something?

Why is it important that she apologize, if the claim is meaningless? Why is it important that whatever tribe accepted her apology, if the claim is meaningless? Is the tribe just perpetuating the entire meaningless Native American cosplay that Warren indulged in? Or is there more to it than that?
Just Asking Questions!
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:18 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
No doubt you demand the same of all the candidates, right? Because you're genuinely concerned about diversity and not just manufacturing an excuse to attack one particular candidate.
I'm genuinely concerned about diversity policy. Warren's case is interesting because it highlights some of the questions I have about diversity policy. I'd be happy if any candidate had something coherent and meaningful to say about it. But I think that given the specific nature of the controversy in Warren's case, it totally makes sense to ask her to say something about it.

Again, for me, this is less about Warren, and more about diversity policy. You're the one who keeps trying to force it back into a narrow attack on Warren.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:18 PM   #271
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Native American status means nothing. Tribal affiliation is everything. That's why the tribe wanted an apology, because she used the tribe's name.

Feel free to make a thread on diversity. Or didn't you already, and it died?
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:20 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Just Asking Questions!
Hoping to spark some discussion, actually. Hoping you'll participate a bit.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hoping to spark some discussion, actually. Hoping you'll participate a bit.
Start a thread. A thread titled "Elizabeth Warren" is about one candidate. This is why you are tragically misunderstood when your genuine interest in diversity is cruelly mistaken as being about Elizabeth Warren, of all possible people.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:37 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
For me, the question of Warren's claims about her ancestry is a question of the philosophy of diversity.

And for me, it's less important what Warren thinks about her own ancestry (then or now), and more important what Warren thinks about self-identity and diversity policy in America.

As a presidential candidate who has in the past played fast and loose with diversity, and who is now taking the approach of "I apologized, what more do you want?", it seems like a relevant question. I'd like to see her give a coherent explanation of her administration's diversity policy, and her philosophy of diversity that informs it.

You used quotes for that statement. Can you cite where Warren actually said that?

If not, can you at least cite where she implied that (cite must include the 'what more do you want' part).
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:58 PM   #275
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Warren is a 'Pretendian'

Quote:
When Pretendians seek to adopt Native identity to appear more exotic, or for some other perceived benefit, yet lack a genuine claim to Native heritage, their actions are little more than an extension of manifest destiny and colonial conquest – you could even call it racial identity theft.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ts-pocahotties
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Old 17th September 2019, 01:35 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Oh dear... the very first paragraph debunks your claim
Are you a Pretendian? If you’ve ever worn a feathered headdress, clad yourself in head-to-toe Navajo prints or claimed without evidence that one of your great-great-great grandparents had some Native blood as a way to derail an argument about your white privilege, you’re the kind of person we Native Americans shame as seeking to co-opt Native identity.
I am not aware of any occasions on which Warren has "worn a feathered headdress" or clad herself in head-to-toe Native American prints. Perhaps you can enlighten us all by citing evidence that she has?

I am not aware of any evidence that she has tried to 'derail an argument about her white privilege'. Perhaps you can cite evidence of this too?

What I am aware of is that she does have actual evidence of Native American ancestry.

NB: Warren's name is not mentioned at all in the article.
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Old 17th September 2019, 02:10 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I would have loved to see Trump and Obama in a debate. Obama would have wiped the floor with him.
Clinton mopped the floor with Trump three times, but she's a woman and tens of millions of morons had been conditioned to hate her so even her 3 million more votes weren't enough for her to win the election.
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Old 17th September 2019, 02:27 PM   #278
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There's also the premise that Warren claimed her Native ancestry (which is now proven) on her membership roll for the Texas bar to help Warren. That isn't clear to me at all. Much more in keeping with her attitudes toward social justice would be Warren registering as American Indian so that she might be in a better position to provide services (maybe even pro bono?) to Native Americans? Imagine a 30-years' younger and more idealistic Elizabeth Warren for a moment and I don't think "conniving grifter" will come to mind.

Also, explain this to me: Warren identifies as American Indian on her Texas Bar membership card. Okay. First off, her name is "Elizabeth Warren" not "Sunbeam Crow". She shows up in person somewhere. She's not wearing buckskins and beads. She looks like she just fell out of the Talbot's catalogue. The notion that she was trying to fool anyone into thinking she wasn't a white woman is ludicrous. Clearly she had some other motivation for claiming her <actual> Native heritage. She wasn't trying to pull a fast one to get ahead; there's no way such a ruse could possibly have been successful.
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Old 17th September 2019, 02:43 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
There's also the premise that Warren claimed her Native ancestry (which is now proven) on her membership roll for the Texas bar to help Warren. That isn't clear to me at all.
Let me help: it is unpublished and could not help her in any way.
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Old 17th September 2019, 03:56 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Clinton mopped the floor with Trump three times, but she's a woman and tens of millions of morons had been conditioned to hate her so even her 3 million more votes weren't enough for her to win the election.
I agree. I watched the three debates and laughed at Trump's debating performance. Unsurprisingly, Trump claimed 'I won" even though Clinton was commonly considered the winner in all three.
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