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Old 13th September 2019, 09:54 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Selling sex is (somehow but that's a whole other topic) illegal. Giving someone a lift in your vehicle for money is not.
Try operating an unlicensed cab in New York City and see what happens. The IRS also has some notions about what constitutes employment and income. The penalties for disregarding the official definitions of these concepts can be considerable.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:03 AM   #122
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I wonder how this might impact Ebay or Etsy.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:10 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Try operating an unlicensed cab in New York City and see what happens. The IRS also has some notions about what constitutes employment and income. The penalties for disregarding the official definitions of these concepts can be considerable.
But that's my point. That's they grey area Uber and Lyft and eBay and AirBnB and so forth and so exist in.

"Hey you can crash at my place, just chip in a few bucks" is not illegal and doesn't make you a business.
"Hey everyone I've got a complete set of Captain Stupendous issues 1-37 in mint condition, 30 bucks or best offer" is not illegal and doesn't make you a business.
"Sure Bill I'll help you move on Sunday, just pay me back for the gas and mileage on my truck" is not illegal and doesn't make you a business.

Uber, Lyft, eBay, and AirBnB are going to argue that's all that's happened, they are just arraigning those kind of inter-personal transactions.

And no matter how different they feel, I'm not seeing where the objective legal difference that can be argued in court is at.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:25 AM   #124
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I can tolerate exploiting "contractors" if there's a system of universal health-care.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:34 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But that's my point. That's they grey area Uber and Lyft and eBay and AirBnB and so forth and so exist in.

"Hey you can crash at my place, just chip in a few bucks" is not illegal and doesn't make you a business.
"Hey everyone I've got a complete set of Captain Stupendous issues 1-37 in mint condition, 30 bucks or best offer" is not illegal and doesn't make you a business.
"Sure Bill I'll help you move on Sunday, just pay me back for the gas and mileage on my truck" is not illegal and doesn't make you a business.

Uber, Lyft, eBay, and AirBnB are going to argue that's all that's happened, they are just arraigning those kind of inter-personal transactions.

And no matter how different they feel, I'm not seeing where the objective legal difference that can be argued in court is at.
Frequency and volume of transactions, for starters. Who the customers are and how you get them. Form and timing of payment. How service is delivered. How the business is incorporated, how the money changes hands inside it, how the business is managed. These are publicly traded companies, right? How are the shares represented to investors?

Corporation law is not new. The loopholes have already been exploited and shut down. There are many extremely wellpaid experts in this field where bajillions of dollars are on the line. Massive stacks of court cases. I guarantee you that you, here on this mesageboard, will not come up with a) anything that hasn't been tried before and b) anything that will topple the enormous mass of legal framework that has been the vital skeleton of industrialized civilization.


Eta: I'm speaking of the attempt to claim those businesses aren't actually in the business of transportation. Whether contractors are employees or not is a much smaller and less ridiculous question.
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:29 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Devil's advocate, devil's advocate.//

Uber's argument is gonna be that the business arraignment is between the driver and the person who needs the ride, they just facilitate that business arraignment.

I have a widget I'm looking to sell. You are looking for a widget to buy. eBay (or Craiglist or whatever) facilitates that business arraignment.

Does that mean I'm an employee of eBay because I used their platform to sell you my widget?

Uber can argue they are just an eBay analog where the only product being sold is "I need a ride."

What's the difference from a point that can be argued legally?
Ebay doesn't tell sellers how much to charge per widget, for one thing. It doesn't tell you what sort of machinery you have to make the widgets with. It doesn't dictate how much widget-making experience you have to have to try to sell. It doesn't threaten to pay you less if you also sell widgets through places other than Ebay.
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:37 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Ebay doesn't tell sellers how much to charge per widget, for one thing. It doesn't tell you what sort of machinery you have to make the widgets with. It doesn't dictate how much widget-making experience you have to have to try to sell. It doesn't threaten to pay you less if you also sell widgets through places other than Ebay.
Ebay does have terms and conditions for the use of their services, though.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:10 PM   #128
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Oh and I didn't mean to hijack the thread.

What did John Galt say about Uber when everyone learned about it in school?
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:12 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ebay does have terms and conditions for the use of their services, though.
Does the TOS include stuff like how much to charge per item, what sort of machinery you have to make the items with, how much item-making experience you have to have to try to sell, and threaten to pay you less if you also sell items through places other than Ebay?
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:16 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Frequency and volume of transactions, for starters. Who the customers are and how you get them. Form and timing of payment. How service is delivered. How the business is incorporated, how the money changes hands inside it, how the business is managed. These are publicly traded companies, right? How are the shares represented to investors?
Agreed that at a certain point differences in scale do become differences in kind, it's why "But I'm just sharing this DVD I purchased with a few friends!" works as an argument when it's 3 guys on your coach and not when it's 25,000 people on Pirate Bay.

And I agree that what the business is presenting itself as matters. There's a legal concept, I believe "Estoppel" is the correct term, that you can't basically deny you are doing what you are currently claiming to be doing. Uber and Lyft's websites and social media pages are an absolute nightmare of twee hipster doublespeak and business lingo mashups but there's enough context in all the fluff to make them arguing they aren't transport companies sort of hard to swallow.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:21 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What did John Galt say about Uber when everyone learned about it in school?

"Stay the hell out of my way!"
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:03 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I agree that what the business is presenting itself as matters. There's a legal concept, I believe "Estoppel" is the correct term, that you can't basically deny you are doing what you are currently claiming to be doing. Uber and Lyft's websites and social media pages are an absolute nightmare of twee hipster doublespeak and business lingo mashups but there's enough context in all the fluff to make them arguing they aren't transport companies sort of hard to swallow.
It's fairly easy, in Uber's case. When someone is getting a ride through this service, they don't say "I'm getting a ride from John", they say "I'm getting an Uber". When the driver does something wrong, Uber users don't complain to the driver, they complain to Uber. They aren't billed by the driver personally, they're billed by Uber. And on and on it goes.
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:47 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It's fairly easy, in Uber's case. When someone is getting a ride through this service, they don't say "I'm getting a ride from John", they say "I'm getting an Uber". When the driver does something wrong, Uber users don't complain to the driver, they complain to Uber. They aren't billed by the driver personally, they're billed by Uber. And on and on it goes.
Yep, if Uber let drivers set their rates I think they would have a better argument for contractor status.
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Old 13th September 2019, 04:18 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What? You mean your English teachers in public school were NOT anarcho-capitalists hellbent on destroying the state?

Where did YOU go to school? Vladimir Lenin High?


I grew up in leftist California. Oddly in this case, where Rand ended up.
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:42 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The thing is, Uber/Lyft should be a license to print money.

"You have a car and some free time. He needs a ride. We have an app that lets you find each other and handles the financial transaction. All we ask is a small piece of your action, whenever you use our app to find someone who needs a ride."

Once the principal development is done, Uber's end of the business could probably be handled by a dozen software developers to maintain and improve the code, and a dozen support and admin staff.

"Use our app to hire your car, and share your proceeds with us" shouldn't be a question of contractors, or employees, or anything like that. And yet here we are.
And the irony is that I suspect something like 90% of Uber and Lyft drivers don't want to be an employee either. I have a friend who drives for Lyft and what he loves about it is that he can set his own hours.
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:52 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake. Assigned reading in high school?

Where did you grow up? I don't know of any school where Rand was required reading. I'd get the Cliff Notes if someone had made me read Atlas Shrugged.

IMO, I learned a lot more about Rand and her Objectivism reading her biography.
I assume biography is a euphemism for her Wikipedia Entry?

Don't get me wrong; Rand is pretty much irrelevant today, and objectivism was never much more than anti-communism gussied up a bit to look like it was a positive philosophy rather than the abnegation of one.

But she was significant until the collapse of the Berlin Wall. She may not be as important historically as Karl Marx, but she was right and he was wrong.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:47 AM   #137
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This article has some really fascinating biographical information about her.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:53 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's still an issue here in the UK, and the rest of Europe where employer-based healthcare is less of an issue, but here the issues are things like employment rights, vacation and sick pay, pension provision and so on.
Not to mention that a lot of financial risk is transfered to the employee/contractor. For example in the case of Uber or delivery drivers (i believe Amazon is using this model?) they're paying for the vehicle but only earning when the company provides them with work, if it's a slow day (or there are too and they sit there earning nothing, it's their problem and they're out of pocket. Of course this encourages the company to over recruit decreasing the individual incomes.

The lack of a guaranteed income can also lead to difficulty getting a mortgage, rental accommodation or credit.
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Old 14th September 2019, 03:18 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, you win the "reference went right over your head" award for the week.
Even if you have never read the novel (and I can undertint why) you should know from the general knowledge fund, that "Who Is John Galt" is the big catchphrase of the novel, one which has seeped into general culture.

And it's more like a 100 Pagish speech in the novel,
To be fair I'd have fallen into the same trap. I knew the name, that he was Rand's character and what he stood for (hence why he was relevant) but I also took the question at face value. Rand was never a big deal in the UK and like many here it was 'Bioshock' that brought her to my attention so "Who is John Galt?" isn't in the general culture.
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Old 14th September 2019, 03:32 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Devil's advocate, devil's advocate.//

Uber's argument is gonna be that the business arraignment is between the driver and the person who needs the ride, they just facilitate that business arraignment.

I have a widget I'm looking to sell. You are looking for a widget to buy. eBay (or Craiglist or whatever) facilitates that business arraignment.

Does that mean I'm an employee of eBay because I used their platform to sell you my widget?

Uber can argue they are just an eBay analog where the only product being sold is "I need a ride."

What's the difference from a point that can be argued legally?
Uber sets all the specifics of the transaction, price, which customers your offered, solo or ride shares, promotions etc. With Ebay you decide what you offer when, how much you charge, if you offer discounts, how you despatch...
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:34 AM   #141
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Deleted, wrong thread
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:39 AM   #142
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But another thing about Uber.

You only have to give a single ride every couple of months. You can open the app whenever you desire. If the prices are not to your liking, you do not have to go be a ride and there isnt a consequence.

That does not describe an employee.
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:15 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But that's my point. That's they grey area Uber and Lyft and eBay and AirBnB and so forth and so exist in.

"Hey you can crash at my place, just chip in a few bucks" is not illegal and doesn't make you a business.
"Hey everyone I've got a complete set of Captain Stupendous issues 1-37 in mint condition, 30 bucks or best offer" is not illegal and doesn't make you a business.
"Sure Bill I'll help you move on Sunday, just pay me back for the gas and mileage on my truck" is not illegal and doesn't make you a business.

Uber, Lyft, eBay, and AirBnB are going to argue that's all that's happened, they are just arraigning those kind of inter-personal transactions.

And no matter how different they feel, I'm not seeing where the objective legal difference that can be argued in court is at.
Picking just the first example, where I live there's a point at which accepting money for residence brings in all the statutory implications of a tenant/landlord.

A friend in the navy let someone stay at their place while deployed. They came home and said "okay time for you to move along." Since the navy guy had accepted the other person paying utilities, he discovered that he had to actually use the eviction process in order to make this person leave the house.
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:51 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Finally, an on-topic post to respond to. (I didn't see that coming.)

As the cost of a new car rose, so did insurance premiums as well as maintenance and repairs. Turning a profit became very difficult. Repairs, the cost of replacement parts, did us in. At the time, many of the fleets, the ones that remained in business, were turning to owner-operators as a way to survive, to get out from under the repair costs. Instead, we sold out. If Uber or Lyft are forced to transition owner-drivers to employees -- presumably Uber and Lyft would then have to furnish and maintain the vehicles -- I doubt they will stay in business for very long. The numbers almost never work.
I'm not quite sure why you think that moving to an owner driver model reduces overall costs. The car, insurance and maintenance still have to be paid for. In fact a taxi company should have an advantage over an individual. If you are buying a fleet of cars rather than just one, you should be able to negotiate a better discount with the manufacturer.

This is why Uber is doomed to fail. Their only advantage over a traditional taxi company is an app and brand recognition, but a traditional company can easily have an app. Uber is not like Amazon who were able to slash their costs by not having physical stores. Their costs are essentially the same as everybody else's unless they decide to operate illegally.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:55 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I'm not quite sure why you think that moving to an owner driver model reduces overall costs. The car, insurance and maintenance still have to be paid for. In fact a taxi company should have an advantage over an individual. If you are buying a fleet of cars rather than just one, you should be able to negotiate a better discount with the manufacturer.



This is why Uber is doomed to fail. Their only advantage over a traditional taxi company is an app and brand recognition, but a traditional company can easily have an app. Uber is not like Amazon who were able to slash their costs by not having physical stores. Their costs are essentially the same as everybody else's unless they decide to operate illegally.
Because they take advantage of the fact their drivers make almost no consideration for their costs like an experienced contractor would. They treat it like a wage, exchanging time for money. They don't consider amortization of a commercial-scale piece of equipment (the car that is being used more rigorously than it would otherwise be).

Many just assume they are "supposed" to have a car and this is just side money to prop up their household budget.

I've gone over this with my dad numerous times (he delivers for Grub Hub, same basic setup). I've shown him on paper how he is, in fact, losing money in the long term. He has certain minimums and guarantees as one of the first round of hires. As they continue pushing compensation for newer drivers down, his service area gets bigger and less flexible every week.
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I'm not quite sure why you think that moving to an owner driver model reduces overall costs. The car, insurance and maintenance still have to be paid for. In fact a taxi company should have an advantage over an individual. If you are buying a fleet of cars rather than just one, you should be able to negotiate a better discount with the manufacturer.

This is why Uber is doomed to fail. Their only advantage over a traditional taxi company is an app and brand recognition, but a traditional company can easily have an app. Uber is not like Amazon who were able to slash their costs by not having physical stores. Their costs are essentially the same as everybody else's unless they decide to operate illegally.
They have one more advantage surge pricing. That can get cars to where they need it. A cab company with staff hours would not be able to do that.
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Old 14th September 2019, 03:03 PM   #147
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The company I had a stake in, we weren't concerned with 'overall costs' we were concerned with 'our costs.' We decided to sell out. A company that was able to transition to all owner-operators saw their costs drop dramatically. They no longer needed a garage, a parking lot, to employ mechanics and maintain a parts inventory. Their liability exposure was all but eliminated. They moved to a small office, and in the basement of an office building (paying a very low rent). They only employed phone operators and radio dispatchers. Their revenue dropped by about 50% but their costs decreased much more than that.
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:16 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I assume biography is a euphemism for her Wikipedia Entry? ...


Is that projection because you don't read books?
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:55 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
In general you should have encountered Rand in high school, where her books were commonly assigned reading, at least back in the horse and buggy days when I was getting my secondary education. That said, I would suspect far more people have read Anthem than the Fountainhead and more have read the Fountainhead than Atlas Shrugged, and almost nobody has read her non-fiction books.
I would guess Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, then Anthem. I read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged (skimmed the radio address), but it not only wasn’t required reading in school, it wasn’t even suggested to me.BUT ‘Who is John Gault’ is something I had heard long before I read the books.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:40 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The company I had a stake in, we weren't concerned with 'overall costs' we were concerned with 'our costs.' We decided to sell out. A company that was able to transition to all owner-operators saw their costs drop dramatically. They no longer needed a garage, a parking lot, to employ mechanics and maintain a parts inventory. Their liability exposure was all but eliminated. They moved to a small office, and in the basement of an office building (paying a very low rent). They only employed phone operators and radio dispatchers. Their revenue dropped by about 50% but their costs decreased much more than that.
But if the overall costs are greater than the overall income, somebody is losing money and the business model is not sustainable. Either the taxi company goes bankrupt or they can't find any drivers.

As it happens, Uber is losing money despite being the global equivalent of the taxi company operating out of a small office. Also, their drivers are probably losing money too.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:47 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
But if the overall costs are greater than the overall income, somebody is losing money and the business model is not sustainable. Either the taxi company goes bankrupt or they can't find any drivers.



As it happens, Uber is losing money despite being the global equivalent of the taxi company operating out of a small office. Also, their drivers are probably losing money too.
You'd almost think these "disruptive" companies don't make money.... "$5.2 billion in net losses represents the company’s largest-ever quarterly loss."
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Old 15th September 2019, 12:19 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You'd almost think these "disruptive" companies don't make money.... "$5.2 billion in net losses represents the company’s largest-ever quarterly loss."
They don't make money. They're just trying to gain a market monopoly so they can later jack up prices and start making money then.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:32 PM   #153
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It's true in any business, if overall costs are greater than overall income, somebody is losing money. In the example I cited, the cab company I once had a partial ownership of, we weren't losing money. But our income had dwindled to the point where operating the business -- with all the stress and the long hours -- was no longer worth the meager return we were getting.

The other example I cited, from personal experience, the cab company that was able to make the transition from driver-employees to owner-operators, their costs dropped dramatically, but so too did overall costs.

Drivers that own their vehicle have a much better driving record. They're easier on the car and that makes a big difference in repair costs. A really huge difference. The owner-driver also performs a lot of maintenance themselves -- checking fluids, replacing tires, replacing hoses, for example -- work that a fleet taxi company has to pay maintainers to do. All of that paid labor expense is eliminated. It was also true, as Delphic Oracle mentioned, many of the owner-operators used their car as 1) a taxi and 2) as a family car. They got extra value from owning a for-hire vehicle. Being able to use it in their off time as the family car.

Transitioning from a fleet car-for-hire service to one made up of owner-drivers, reduces total costs regardless of who gets stuck paying them. I think within the industry that is a given.

This actually brings me back to my original thought. If Uber is losing money with owner-operators, how could they possibly survive with driver-employees? How would they do it? Who would own the cars? Would they have to hire the drivers and their cars? Uber is reportedly losing money getting about 25% of fare revenue. If they have to hire the cars -- never mind provide them -- they have to get a bigger cut of the revenue, wouldn't they? The drivers might not want that anymore than Uber seems to.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:59 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They don't make money. They're just trying to gain a market monopoly so they can later jack up prices and start making money then.
I think that's the Amazon model.
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Old 15th September 2019, 03:15 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
...Also, their drivers are probably losing money too.
They're making money. Below are results from Ridester, the ride share drivers' information service, based on surveys done in 2018. They show average income for ride share drivers in the cities listed.

Quote:
Top Ten Best Earning Cities
  • Honolulu – $25.55
  • Seattle – $24.88
  • Long Island – $24.85
  • Pittsburgh – $24.09
  • Westchester County, NY – $22.74
  • New York City – $21.92
  • San Francisco – $20.45
  • San Diego – $18.00
  • Chicago – $17.81
  • Boston – $17.52
For me, Pittsburgh would be the best place to drive. Fourth highest earnings in a market where the cost-of-living is probably lower than in any of the other cities (and Westchester County) listed. Overall, it should be noted, Ridester's survey shows "at least half of all Uber drivers earn less than $10 per hour after all car expenses are considered."
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Old 15th September 2019, 03:26 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
They're making money. Below are results from Ridester, the ride share drivers' information service, based on surveys done in 2018. They show average income for ride share drivers in the cities listed.







For me, Pittsburgh would be the best place to drive. Fourth highest earnings in a market where the cost-of-living is probably lower than in any of the other cities (and Westchester County) listed. Overall, it should be noted, Ridester's survey shows "at least half of all Uber drivers earn less than $10 per hour after all car expenses are considered."
Expanding on that...

Quote:
A Word on Driving Expenses

Our survey adds to the mounting body of evidence that at least half of all Uber drivers earn less than $10 per hour after all car expenses are considered. If you*contact Uber, through any method, they’ll give you a roundabout answer, but our evidence holds true.
And car expenses must be taken into consideration because they are not optional for drivers.* Every mile a driver puts on his car costs something and that has to be accounted for in any attempt to assess how much drivers are really earning.
Researchers and pundits have agonized over just how much it costs a ride-hail driver per mile to drive.**While it is not possible to say exactly how much it costs any individual driver, that should not stop us from coming up with reasonable and reliable aggregate expense figures.
The*IRS*pegs total driving costs, including intangible but very real expenses such as depreciation, at 54.5 cents per mile for 2018.**Triple A*puts the*composite cost for all vehicles at 49.44 cents per mile.
This is the part a lot of younger drivers don't seem to get.

They think being compensated for their time is great, but don't seem to consider they are giving away use of the car essentially for free.

Then again I'm used to production gig work where I supply only me and the company supplies the gear (usually rented). If they want me to bring my gear, I expect a "kit fee."

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 15th September 2019 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 15th September 2019, 05:55 PM   #157
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Uber drivers are essentially getting an extra 25% of the fare revenue for supplying their own car. Is it worth it? In some cases, yes it seems to be. In other cases, probably not.

I know guys who drive for what New York calls a 'Black Car' car service. Some are retirees. Others immigrated from Guyana. All say they do pretty well. Industry research estimates their earnings at between $17.00-$20.00 an hour. One guy I know -- I used to work with him -- leases a new car every two years. He's responsible for maintenance and he says by the third year repairs become too expensive. He says his passengers love that they're in a new (or almost new) car.
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:18 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
They're making money. Below are results from Ridester, the ride share drivers' information service, based on surveys done in 2018. They show average income for ride share drivers in the cities listed.



For me, Pittsburgh would be the best place to drive. Fourth highest earnings in a market where the cost-of-living is probably lower than in any of the other cities (and Westchester County) listed. Overall, it should be noted, Ridester's survey shows "at least half of all Uber drivers earn less than $10 per hour after all car expenses are considered."
For other cities:

Quote:
Buffalo – $9.74
San Antonio – $9.74
Tulsa* – $9.17
Oklahoma City** – $9.16
Indianapolis – $9.04
Tampa/St. Pete – $8.95
Springfield, MO – $8.78
Houston – $8.67
Raleigh/Durham – $6.62
Akron, OH – $4.94
And it says at the bottom:

Quote:
Since our survey breaks out earnings by city, we can look and see that Philadelphia drivers earn more than the $13.70 national median, coming in at $17.62 per hour. But when we deduct the per-mile costs of $0.458 for the 18.27 miles we get an average hourly expense of $8.37. That means the average Philly driver earns a median income of just $9.25 per hour.
So, drivers in a couple of these cities are literally operating in the red. Others are making $1 an hour.
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:28 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I think that's the Amazon model.
I seriously think we should consider nationalizing it at some point, especially since the Cold War birthed it.
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Old 16th September 2019, 04:54 AM   #160
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The problem with finding some of the owner-drivers are actually losing money is, these are individuals, not corporations. As individuals they have living costs. Housing, food etc. How would they manage to live if they have a negative income? I don't know of anyone who is losing money and continues to work for the service, living subsidized by their spouse of family. I have known people who started working for a service, found they weren't making enough money with them and left. I've also known people who drive for both Lyft and Uber. At the same time I mean. That is not prohibited.

But I still don't understand how these owner-operators could be transitioned to employees. It would seem to me this would be shifting some of the costs to the companies at a time neither Lyft or Uber make money.
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