ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags North Carolina incidents , North Carolina politics , republicans

Reply
Old 13th September 2019, 06:36 AM   #121
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,698
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Except when a new 'trick play' is hit upon.

So it's come down to 'hall monitors' to have to keep an eye on the little *****. Great.

Somehow I think it better to have ethical humans in the Legislature, and failing that well defined rules to enforce ethical behavior. This throwing up of hands and accepting that increased vigilance against dirty tricks be the new norm doesn't seem congruent with democratic practice.
Edited by kmortis:  Do not mask swear words. Let the autocensor do its job.
Obeying the rules is pretty ethical. The Republicans followed the rules.

Last edited by kmortis; 23rd September 2019 at 04:20 AM.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2019, 06:40 AM   #122
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,624
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Obeying the rules is pretty ethical. The Republicans followed the rules.
Bob would you knock it off? Ethics and "following the rules" are two separate things. This is first grade knowledge. That's why there are ethics boards in various ******* job fields that can rescind licenses to practice based on behavior. It doesn't require you doing anything illegal, just unethical. Stop this ******** line of reasoning just to garner attention. It's annoying.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

ďThere are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.Ē - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2019, 06:42 AM   #123
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,707
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Obeying the rules is pretty ethical. The Republicans followed the rules.
So did the Nazis.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2019, 06:44 AM   #124
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,698
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Bob would you knock it off? Ethics and "following the rules" are two separate things. This is first grade knowledge. That's why there are ethics boards in various ******* job fields that can rescind licenses to practice based on behavior. It doesn't require you doing anything illegal, just unethical. Stop this ******** line of reasoning just to garner attention. It's annoying.
Ethics boards apply rules. The rules are less specific, but they are still rules. They publish the rules so people have a sense of what they can and cannot do.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2019, 06:44 AM   #125
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,212
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And yet, here you are. (Not sure that BtC is the role model you want if you're going to pretend to be here to engage in honest debate. Just sayin'.)
You keep talking past me. I don't see it going anywhere.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2019, 07:11 AM   #126
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
And yet for some reason, House Rules Committee Chairman David Lewis didn't think there would be a vote:


Gosh, I wonder why.

And I'm also struggling with the dilemma of who to believe when Democrats claim Lewis also told them that there would be no vote, which Lewis denies. Despite the fact, of course, that he did tell a WRAL reporter there would be no vote.

I'm just hoping that a couple of Super Skeptics like mgardner and theprestige can explain what happened here.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Here's something you might not have known....

There is actually more than 1 part to a working day. Morning and afternoon.

If you tell someone "there will be votes" in a day, but also say "no votes in the morning", its reasonable to assume the votes will be in the afternoon.

Well, assuming the person isn't an unethical scumbag like your typical republican, when they were lying about the morning thing.
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
In the *afternoon*, I gather. *Not* in the morning.
Hi theprestige - The above quoted posts were all in response to you.

Do you in turn have a response?
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2019, 07:57 AM   #127
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 51,222
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Hi theprestige - The above quoted posts were all in response to you.

Do you in turn have a response?
Perhaps he made a response in another thread elsewhere that nobody else was aware was happening. Still counts, apparently.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2019, 08:10 AM   #128
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 13,895
So I just have one question.

Is it time to swap the GOP elephant for the GOP limbo bar?
__________________
Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together. - Eugene Ionesco
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2019, 12:06 PM   #129
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 22,864
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Bob would you knock it off? Ethics and "following the rules" are two separate things. This is first grade knowledge. That's why there are ethics boards in various ******* job fields that can rescind licenses to practice based on behavior. It doesn't require you doing anything illegal, just unethical. Stop this ******** line of reasoning just to garner attention. It's annoying.
If you stop providing the desired attention it would help.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2019, 12:08 PM   #130
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,707
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Hi theprestige - The above quoted posts were all in response to you.

Do you in turn have a response?
I'm still waiting for Hannity to be waterboarded. Can we add this to the list of things to wait for?
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2019, 01:19 PM   #131
Cabbage
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,609
NC GOP senator John Alexander finds out his district has been redrawn to be more competitive, so he quietly changes it to remove Democrats. He gets caught and his amended changes won't fly.......so he retires, like the coward he is.

LOL!!!

https://twitter.com/johnbisognano/st...50792196141056
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2019, 01:21 PM   #132
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,864
Is North Carolina a state with full time or part time legislators? Is the expectation for them to hold down other jobs while serving weighed into the time allotments?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2019, 01:47 PM   #133
Cabbage
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,609
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Is North Carolina a state with full time or part time legislators? Is the expectation for them to hold down other jobs while serving weighed into the time allotments?
That didn't occur to me. It looks like an NC representative only gets about $14,000 a year (and is classified as hybrid: 70% of full time):

https://ballotpedia.org/Comparison_o...ative_salaries

On the other hand a senator (like Alexander) makes on average $70,000, which ain't fancy, but it's enough to live on.

https://www.paysa.com/salaries/north...-state-senator
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2019, 02:18 PM   #134
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Currently Dismembered
Posts: 8,413
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
That didn't occur to me. It looks like an NC representative only gets about $14,000 a year (and is classified as hybrid: 70% of full time):

https://ballotpedia.org/Comparison_o...ative_salaries

On the other hand a senator (like Alexander) makes on average $70,000, which ain't fancy, but it's enough to live on.

https://www.paysa.com/salaries/north...-state-senator
Dann. Reps are pulling like $10/hr? Well, scratch being a State representative in North Carolina from my safety net careers. McDonald's moves up a notch
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2019, 01:16 AM   #135
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,353
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dann. Reps are pulling like $10/hr? Well, scratch being a State representative in North Carolina from my safety net careers. McDonald's moves up a notch
Pretty sure the perks make up for it. There's a reason the GOP senators are so eager to cheat to keep their jobs.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2019, 09:59 AM   #136
Lurch
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 936
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Pretty sure the perks make up for it. There's a reason the GOP senators are so eager to cheat to keep their jobs.
If by "perks" you mean the power to shape policy and laws to the benefit of them and their fellow creatures, then certainly.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2019, 10:02 AM   #137
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Currently Dismembered
Posts: 8,413
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
If by "perks" you mean the power to shape policy and laws to the benefit of them and their fellow creatures, then certainly.
...and I'm pretty sure they would be on the receiving end of some tasty thank-yous, as well. Just shocking that the pay would be so tiny for a State like NC.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2019, 10:04 AM   #138
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,864
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dann. Reps are pulling like $10/hr? Well, scratch being a State representative in North Carolina from my safety net careers. McDonald's moves up a notch
And so they have to get their law practices in in the morning sometimes if there isn't going to be a vote. But no one would ever take advantage of that.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 07:47 AM   #139
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dann. Reps are pulling like $10/hr? Well, scratch being a State representative in North Carolina from my safety net careers. McDonald's moves up a notch
You are not factoring in bribe income.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 07:51 AM   #140
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And so they have to get their law practices in in the morning sometimes if there isn't going to be a vote. But no one would ever take advantage of that.
I think if they do not show up when in session they are the ones taking advantage. The voluntarily take the job, know the pay, know the hours and should show up for work when they are supposed to.

I am sure the republicans are just as good at not showing up as the democrats.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 08:23 AM   #141
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,864
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I think if they do not show up when in session they are the ones taking advantage. The voluntarily take the job, know the pay, know the hours and should show up for work when they are supposed to.

I am sure the republicans are just as good at not showing up as the democrats.
I guess only the independently wealthy like the landed gentry and aristocrats should even be eligible for running.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 08:58 AM   #142
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,286
The NC "Education" Lottery was passed with similar shenanigans. To summarize:

-The NC Senate was very tight: 29 Dems to 21 Repubs.
-The lottery was passed by the House but enough Dems in the Senate opposed it to give a 2 vote advantage to the opposition.
-It was therefore not expected to pass and the President Pro-Tem publicly announced to the press and the Assembly that the session would end without any further votes being taken -so no vote on the losing lottery bill.
-In response, 2 Senators who were opposed to the lottery bill decided to take the last day off.
-The President Pro-Tem heard about this and decided that there would be a vote only on the lottery bill after all which ended up tied. The tie was broken by the Lt. Gov, a democrat and the lottery bill passed.

So it seems like this kind of thing is bipartisan and ethics seems to be an issue in the NCGA.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 09:02 AM   #143
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,212
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The NC "Education" Lottery was passed with similar shenanigans. To summarize:

-The NC Senate was very tight: 29 Dems to 21 Repubs.
-The lottery was passed by the House but enough Dems in the Senate opposed it to give a 2 vote advantage to the opposition.
-It was therefore not expected to pass and the President Pro-Tem publicly announced to the press and the Assembly that the session would end without any further votes being taken -so no vote on the losing lottery bill.
-In response, 2 Senators who were opposed to the lottery bill decided to take the last day off.
-The President Pro-Tem heard about this and decided that there would be a vote only on the lottery bill after all which ended up tied. The tie was broken by the Lt. Gov, a democrat and the lottery bill passed.

So it seems like this kind of thing is bipartisan and ethics seems to be an issue in the NCGA.
That's an interesting and weird scenario.

"We don't have the numbers or the support to make a vote on this worthwhile. So no vote."

"No vote, huh? Sweet, three day weekend!"

"With a couple of our members taking the day off, it turns out we do have the numbers after all. The vote is back on!"

"... Wait, what? Oh, ****."

---

So much for the theory that after the trick works once, everyone will be smart enough to not fall for it a second time.

But now that whole "it was never officially announced according to the rules of the legislature" excuse makes more sense. Apparently it's part of how the game is played.

Last edited by theprestige; 18th September 2019 at 09:05 AM.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 10:24 AM   #144
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,223
A 14 year-old whataboutism from a biased source.

Skepticism at its finest.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 10:52 AM   #145
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,286
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
A 14 year-old whataboutism from a biased source.



Skepticism at its finest.
When this incident is used to smear a whole partyís ethics, it isnít whataboutism to point out that both parties engage in the same kind of unethical conduct. I agree this particular incident was unethical; I donít agree that the GOP as a whole is uniquely unethical.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 11:19 AM   #146
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 51,222
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
When this incident is used to smear a whole party’s ethics, it isn’t whataboutism to point out that both parties engage in the same kind of unethical conduct. I agree this particular incident was unethical; I don’t agree that the GOP as a whole is uniquely unethical.
Indeed. Gaming the system to get your way is sickening and corrupt behavior. There should be extremely firm and clear rules on how the job should be done, and harsh penalties for noncompliance. Permanent disqualification from holding an elected or appointed government position for life for starters. And let's throw in quadruple taxation for fifty years, that should quell the rich ones.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 11:23 AM   #147
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
When this incident is used to smear a whole partyís ethics, it isnít whataboutism to point out that both parties engage in the same kind of unethical conduct. I agree this particular incident was unethical; I donít agree that the GOP as a whole is uniquely unethical.
Cool. Got anything other than a Republican legislatorís blog for a source?
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 07:12 AM   #148
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Cool. Got anything other than a Republican legislatorís blog for a source?
Bump for xjx388.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 08:38 AM   #149
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,286
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Cool. Got anything other than a Republican legislatorís blog for a source?


Yes. Itís called ďreality.Ē Boom! [mic drop]

Seriously, though. Are you disputing that the events unfolded that way? The basic facts are accurately recounted in that Republican legislatorís blog.

1. It was announced that there would be no more votes.
2. 2 Republicans took the last day off
3. They decided to hold the vote when that became known.

Thatís just history. If you think the legislator is wrong and things didnít happen that way, itís on you to show that.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 08:50 AM   #150
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,624
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes. It’s called “reality.” Boom! [mic drop]

Seriously, though. Are you disputing that the events unfolded that way? The basic facts are accurately recounted in that Republican legislator’s blog.

1. It was announced that there would be no more votes.
2. 2 Republicans took the last day off
3. They decided to hold the vote when that became known.

That’s just history. If you think the legislator is wrong and things didn’t happen that way, it’s on you to show that.
Technically you're providing a positive claim (you're presenting what the legislator said as evidence), so it's on you to support the claim. If it did happen that way then there would absolutely be evidence of it in the local news or even national sites. It really shouldn't be all that hard to support.

I don't care either way, but if you present evidence it's on you to support it.

ETA: Here is what I found about it:

Quote:
Senate Majority Leader Tony Rand, D-Cumberland, brought up the bill for consideration about 1:15 p.m. Senate leader Marc Basnight told WRAL he called senators back to Raleigh because he thought the votes were there to pass a lottery.

...

Two Republican senators who opposed the lottery -- Harry Brown of Onslow County and Robert Garwood of Wilkes County -- were not present at the Legislature for the vote. Both had received excused absences.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

ďThere are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.Ē - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 19th September 2019 at 08:55 AM.
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 08:53 AM   #151
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,361
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It isnít whataboutism to point out that both parties engage in the same kind of unethical conduct.
That's exactly what whataboutism is. Like literally, dictionary definition level exactly what it is. You couldn't define whataboutism better than that sentence.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 08:56 AM   #152
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,624
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's exactly what whataboutism is. Like literally, dictionary definition level exactly what it is. You couldn't define whataboutism better than that sentence.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

ďThere are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.Ē - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 09:02 AM   #153
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,361
"If I prove you're a hypocrite that means I'm in the right morally, factually correct, and that the problem we were working to solve is no longer a problem" is destroying all levels of political discourse.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 19th September 2019 at 09:03 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 09:39 AM   #154
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,286
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's exactly what whataboutism is. Like literally, dictionary definition level exactly what it is. You couldn't define whataboutism better than that sentence.


Sure if the argument was ďThis was a bad thing that was done by the Republicans.Ē No argument from me on that point. That is not the argument here. The argument is ďThe Republicans are uniquely bad in this way.Ē That is a false argument and itís appropriate to counter that with examples.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 09:40 AM   #155
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,286
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"If I prove you're a hypocrite that means I'm in the right morally, factually correct, and that the problem we were working to solve is no longer a problem" is destroying all levels of political discourse.

Thatís a strawman. It has nothing to do with hypocrisy but countering the notion that Republicans are unique. The whole political system is plagued by these problems, all the parties all the time.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 09:42 AM   #156
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,361
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Sure if the argument was “This was a bad thing that was done by the Republicans.” No argument from me on that point. That is not the argument here. The argument is “The Republicans are uniquely bad in this way.” That is a false argument and it’s appropriate to counter that with examples.
*Head desk* Jesus Goddamn piss drinking donkey raping shoeless Christ.

Because everytime we go "The Republicans did a bad thing..." someone, *hint, hint, wink, wink, points at you*, runs in screaming about something the Democrats did.

You make the argument about comparisons, then complain that comparisons aren't the point.

If you and the other Conservative fanboys didn't demand that we prove the Republicans are "uniquely bad" this wouldn't be an issue.

I don't give a rat's anus if they are "uniquely" bad. A problem doesn't have to be DA WURSTESt AND ONLY EXAMPLE OF dA PROBLE EVAR! before we can talk about it.

Nothing can ever be goddamn improved because the tribes won't let anyone criticize them until the person doing the criticism is perfect.

****... that... noise.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 19th September 2019 at 09:44 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 10:32 AM   #157
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,212
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's exactly what whataboutism is. Like literally, dictionary definition level exactly what it is. You couldn't define whataboutism better than that sentence.
Calling out special pleading is not whataboutism.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 02:18 PM   #158
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,941
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Calling out special pleading is not whataboutism.

Unfortunately for your side, there was no special pleading involved, only whataboutism.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 02:26 PM   #159
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,212
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Unfortunately for your side, there was no special pleading involved, only whataboutism.
"Whataboutism is the last refuge of the scoundrel who's been called out on his special pleading."

- Samuel Johnson, probably
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 02:46 PM   #160
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,941
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Whataboutism is the last refuge of the scoundrel who's been called out on his special pleading."

- Samuel Johnson, probably

Which conclusively proves that you cannot substantively debate the point.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:58 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.