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Old 12th September 2019, 05:59 PM   #1
BStrong
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Got to vote for Kamala Harris

If elected, she'll ban imports of AR-15 rifles...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kamala-...mports-source/

California Sen. Kamala Harris will announce at a campaign stop Wednesday that she would use executive action to ban imports of AR-15 style assault weapons if elected president, a senior campaign official tells CBS News.

She just said it at the debate.

You can count on one hand the foreign manufacturers of AR rifles. Sounds good though.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:01 PM   #2
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"Trump didn't pull the trigger, but he sure is tweeting out the ammunition."
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:04 PM   #3
BStrong
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
"Trump didn't pull the trigger, but he sure is tweeting out the ammunition."
It's a good line.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:32 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Sounds good though.

What makes it sound good?! Is it because potential mass shooters will then have to buy AR-15s made in the USA if they want to shoot people?
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:47 PM   #5
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Beto O'Rourke: 'Hell, yes, we're going to take your AR-15, your AK-47'

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/12/polit...-47/index.html

So, I guess what he really means is "'Hell, yes, we're going to take your semi-auto firearms". The number of deaths associated with AR-15's and AK-47's is dwarfed by the total deaths from firearms. He is either not interested in making a difference and is just posturing, or what he really wants to do is take most of the guns owned by Americans.

Surely he can't be as stupid as those who thought the AEB of 1994 would work as long as AR-15's were banned by name or still legal without the bayonet lug or flash hider. The buy back will either be a rip-off (like Trump's gun grab) or cost a ****-ton of money.

Washington State is in the process of doing what O'Rourke wants. In WA all semi-auto rifles have been designated as assault weapons. The next gun ban in WA will be sold as "we only want the assault weapons".

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Old 12th September 2019, 09:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What makes it sound good?! Is it because potential mass shooters will then have to buy AR-15s made in the USA if they want to shoot people?
I think he means is that it sounds good like Trump's bump stock ban. A single mass shooting led to banning a gun part that was not (in my opinion) a substantial reason for the number of deaths. The rifles remain just as lethal and the tab for the gun grab is only $312 million.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:02 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
....
You can count on one hand the foreign manufacturers of AR rifles. Sounds good though.
It doesn't matter how many manufacturers there are. The question is how many assault-style rifles are imported, and what percentage of the market do they represent? Does anybody in the U.S. make AK47s? And what percentage of rifles assembled in the U.S. use foreign-made parts?

Anything that reduces supply and increases price of military-style weapons that no civilian has any legitimate reason to own would be seen as a good thing by a large majority of Americans.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:07 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It doesn't matter how many manufacturers there are. The question is how many assault-style rifles are imported, and what percentage of the market do they represent? Does anybody in the U.S. make AK47s? And what percentage of rifles assembled in the U.S. use foreign-made parts?
There are 100% Americana made AK-47 type rifles. Here is one; https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/t...-ak-the-ras47/

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Anything that reduces supply and increases price of military-style weapons that no civilian has any legitimate reason to own would be seen as a good thing by a large majority of Americans.
I don't think there is any reason at all to believe that banning import of AR-15's will reduce the supply or demand. They are common as flies right now.
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:15 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The number of deaths associated with AR-15's and AK-47's is dwarfed by the total deaths from firearms. He is either not interested in making a difference and is just posturing, or what he really wants to do is take most of the guns owned by Americans.
But what about high-profile mass-casualty school shootings?

People seem to be more concerned with those than suicides or gang-bangers killing each other.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:45 AM   #10
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I'm not surprised that the mass media pays more attention to kids and middle class persons who are killed. It is kind of like the "missing white woman syndrome" that we see.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:02 AM   #11
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Start with the low-hanging fruit. Everyone knows that getting the handguns out of the hands of the gangs will be much, much harder. Remember that perfect is the enemy of good.
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Old 13th September 2019, 04:57 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Start with the low-hanging fruit. Everyone knows that getting the handguns out of the hands of the gangs will be much, much harder. Remember that perfect is the enemy of good.
...getting the already illegal handguns out of the hands of gangs...
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:05 AM   #13
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Stopping the flow of American guns to Mexico where they are used by the drug cartels who send their drugs to America strikes me as a higher priority than random shootings. The random massacres are horrific spectacles, yes, but the drug cartels are actually an existential threat to Mexico and a serious disease to America.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Start with the low-hanging fruit. Everyone knows that getting the handguns out of the hands of the gangs will be much, much harder. Remember that perfect is the enemy of good.
I've heard the complaint that "why aren't we enforcing the laws that are already on the books" first before we go after law-abiding gun owners. I honestly don't want to take guns away from responsible, law-abiding people even if that is the "low-hanging fruit". I do want to take them away from mass shooters though. If somehow you could figure out which one is which ahead of time. Easier said than done.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:03 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Stopping the flow of American guns to Mexico where they are used by the drug cartels who send their drugs to America strikes me as a higher priority than random shootings.
Sure, I agree. But I don't know if the American voters are willing to get rid of the ATF.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:08 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I've heard the complaint that "why aren't we enforcing the laws that are already on the books" first before we go after law-abiding gun owners. I honestly don't want to take guns away from responsible, law-abiding people even if that is the "low-hanging fruit". I do want to take them away from mass shooters though. If somehow you could figure out which one is which ahead of time. Easier said than done.
Indeed. How on earth to we get local law enforcement to actually report disqualifying crimes to the National Criminal Information Center database so that they can block gun sales to criminals? It seems like an intractable problem.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:34 AM   #17
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Just off the top of my head, the majority of these mass shooters have been totally off the radar prior to their act. The only one I recall that was under the care of a medical-health professional was the Virginia tech shooter, and the guy didn’t tell anyone...

The only way “mental health” issues show up on the standard background check is if you have been adjudicated by a court as such. Very few people with issues actually end up being treated by judicial mandate.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:50 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Just off the top of my head, the majority of these mass shooters have been totally off the radar prior to their act. The only one I recall that was under the care of a medical-health professional was the Virginia tech shooter, and the guy didn’t tell anyone...

The only way “mental health” issues show up on the standard background check is if you have been adjudicated by a court as such. Very few people with issues actually end up being treated by judicial mandate.
The Aurora theater shooter was also under psychiatric care and even told his psychiatrist that he was thinking of doing violence.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:39 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Just off the top of my head, the majority of these mass shooters have been totally off the radar prior to their act.
That's not even close to true. There are many examples of missed red flags.

Quote:
The only way “mental health” issues show up on the standard background check is if you have been adjudicated by a court as such. Very few people with issues actually end up being treated by judicial mandate.
Mental health problems frequently lead to criminal actions and convictions prior to mass shootings. If these are properly reported, then they will disqualify the person from legally purchasing a gun, but often they are not.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:06 AM   #20
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I agree with Ziggurat that a more robust reporting system would help in a lot of these cases.

I think that combined with a universal background check system could help.

Follow that with laws requiring courts to seize guns from those convicted of crimes that would make those defendants ineligible for gun ownership.

This wouldn't be perfect, but it would be good.

Finally, I think a proper AWB bill could be passed that would actually ban the possession of certain assault weapons, say, any semiautomatic weapon with a caliber over a certain size with a removable magazine or internal magazine over a certain size. You want a 10-22, I'm good even if it has a 50 round magazine. But if you want to shoot .223 you need something with an internal magazine below say 10 shots. Or you can pick a lever action* with a bit more capacity.

Maybe caliber isn't the best way to define "size", as it may just lead to the proliferation of a caliber just below the threshold, but I'm not up to date on other measurements based on the velocity and weight of the projectile.

*I've always preferred pump and double barrel shotguns over semi-autos and lever action carbines over semi-autos. It just feels more like shooting to me, but I know that is a personal preference.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:10 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Finally, I think a proper AWB bill could be passed that would actually ban the possession of certain assault weapons, say, any automatic weapon with a caliber over a certain size with a removable magazine or internal magazine over a certain size.
Did you mean semiautomatic? Because automatic weapons are already very tightly controlled, and are almost never used in crimes.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:16 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Did you mean semiautomatic? Because automatic weapons are already very tightly controlled, and are almost never used in crimes.
Yes, sorry. Growing up we always referred to semiautomatics as automatics. I know we've had that conversation here before, but I can't remember if it is a regional thing, a hunter thing, or just a me thing.

And thanks for pointing it out. I had time to go back and fix it.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:39 AM   #23
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The punchline to the joke is that the non-NFA AR platform rifles manufactured by foreign companies are manufactured here in the U.S, and manufacturers that do manufacture them outside the U.S. have U.S. manufacturing facilities they can easily use for domestic production.

It's a time-honored political tactic - propose a solution to a non-existent problem.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:42 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The punchline to the joke is that the non-NFA AR platform rifles manufactured by foreign companies are manufactured here in the U.S, and manufacturers that do manufacture them outside the U.S. have U.S. manufacturing facilities they can easily use for domestic production.

It's a time-honored political tactic - propose a solution to a non-existent problem.
Of course, but that won't stop us from having a general gun discussion in any and every thread that has any connection with guns.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:59 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
If elected, she'll ban imports of AR-15 rifles...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kamala-...mports-source/

California Sen. Kamala Harris will announce at a campaign stop Wednesday that she would use executive action to ban imports of AR-15 style assault weapons if elected president, a senior campaign official tells CBS News.

She just said it at the debate.

You can count on one hand the foreign manufacturers of AR rifles. Sounds good though.
She's thinking of the SKS rifles made by China and the AK 47 made by Russia. If assault weapons are ever banned bad guys will have no problems getting an excellent knockoff of the AR 15 made by Taurus in Brazile.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:59 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Of course, but that won't stop us from having a general gun discussion in any and every thread that has any connection with guns.
This reminds of the politician in Berkeley that stated that now that California has banned high-capacity magazines it was time to ban high-capacity ammunition.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:02 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
This reminds of the politician in Berkeley that stated that now that California has banned high-capacity magazines it was time to ban high-capacity ammunition.
Yes, I hear the ultra high capacity ammunition was a big part of why the Las Vegas shooter was so deadly.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:11 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yes, I hear the ultra high capacity ammunition was a big part of why the Las Vegas shooter was so deadly.

Didn't realize you could make MIRVs that small. Hell yeah we need to ban those in civilian hands!
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:16 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yes, sorry. Growing up we always referred to semiautomatics as automatics. I know we've had that conversation here before, but I can't remember if it is a regional thing, a hunter thing, or just a me thing.

And thanks for pointing it out. I had time to go back and fix it.
With respect - it is a factual thing.
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:18 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
This reminds of the politician in Berkeley that stated that now that California has banned high-capacity magazines it was time to ban high-capacity ammunition.
Sounds like a politician with a low capacity mind...
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:41 AM   #31
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I guess if you don't want to say out loud that you want to start removing amendments from the bill of rights, things like that sound better.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
If elected, she'll ban imports of AR-15 rifles...
Wow. That's right up there with DeBlasio's robot tax.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:05 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
I guess if you don't want to say out loud that you want to start removing amendments from the bill of rights, things like that sound better.
It was pretty clear last night that few candidates see the 2nd amendment as any impediment to banning ugly black rifles.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:22 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It was pretty clear last night that few candidates see the 2nd amendment as any impediment to banning ugly black rifles.
It has been that way since 1934. A poll tax is bad, so is taxing guns many times what they are worth.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:21 PM   #35
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Excuse the epression, but a lot of gun control advocates shoot themselves in the foot through their ignorance about firearms...
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:23 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Start with the low-hanging fruit. Everyone knows that getting the handguns out of the hands of the gangs will be much, much harder. Remember that perfect is the enemy of good.
I see that almost no AR 15s are imported into America zipped right by your head.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:39 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
It has been that way since 1934. A poll tax is bad, so is taxing guns many times what they are worth.
"Nobody is going to take way your guns."

Except the ones that are scary, the ones that are too small, the ones that are too big...

One little fact that the general populace isn't hip to, and even many firearms owners, is that there is a federal 11% excise tax on all firearms and ammunition:

https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/pi...servation-fund

In the weeks since the horrific Valentine’s Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High in Parkland, Florida, conversations about gun control have dominated much of the national discourse. All eyes are locked on firearms—who’s buying them and how, and what is the degree to which the gun industry’s dollars play a role in our political system? But here’s something you might have missed: Four days before the March for Our Lives, the federal government distributed $1.1 billion in tax dollars extracted from gun sales to state agencies. The money was earmarked for a specific purpose: wildlife conservation.

This may be surprising, but it isn’t new. The lion’s share of funding for state wildlife conservation programs comes from the sale of guns, ammunition, and other hunting supplies, thanks to an 80-year-old piece of legislation called the Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act, also known as the Pittman-Robertson Act.


P-R isn't just a tax on firearms/ammo, it covers just about every type of camping/fishing/outdoor recreation equipment.

The next time a politician paints gun companies as evil entities only interested in profit, ask the pol in question if they'd be willing to part with P-R money.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:55 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The next time a politician paints gun companies as evil entities only interested in profit, ask the pol in question if they'd be willing to part with P-R money.
I bet O'Rourke would answer that rather quickly.
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:22 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
With respect - it is a factual thing.
Agreed. But I think it was common terminology among hunters I grew up with to refer to semi-automatic shotguns and rifles as "autos". The only pistols we used were revolvers, so I'm not sure if they referred to semi-automatic pistols as "autos".
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:35 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Agreed. But I think it was common terminology among hunters I grew up with to refer to semi-automatic shotguns and rifles as "autos". The only pistols we used were revolvers, so I'm not sure if they referred to semi-automatic pistols as "autos".
In the old Mike Hammer books, and other detective novels of the era, semi-automatic pistols were definitely referred to as "automatics". I've linked to and quoted the books a number of times in the forum, it is one of those things that the gun-control discussions keep circling back to. Fully automatic guns at the time seem to have usually just been called "machine guns". Calling a pistol and "automatic" without any further description would have caused the listener to think the speaker was discussing a semi-auto pistol.

Last edited by crescent; 13th September 2019 at 09:42 PM.
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