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Old 17th September 2019, 08:31 AM   #41
isissxn
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Yeah, Reddit is a true trash fire these days.

I know, I know - smaller subs are still supposedly cool, Reddit is all about how you tailor your experience, etc. I'm not sure. Politics really seems to be leaking all over that site, and people just go there to fight and nitpick.

*has moment of self-awareness*

Haha, oh well, at least there's kind of a sense of community here.
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Old 17th September 2019, 08:37 AM   #42
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I really wish I could do something about "beclowned". It's the "throw under the bus" of whatever year this is.
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Old 17th September 2019, 09:49 AM   #43
Armitage72
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I use Snopes often to find out if the current meme I'm asked to believe on Facebook is meaningful. Unfortunately if I post a link to Snopes instead of a link they used, then more often than not I'm told Snopes is biased. I'm sure they are to an extent.

That's a pretty mild dismissal. I've been told that Snopes is a Democratic propaganda site secretly funded by George Soros. The man seems to be involved in everything.
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Old 17th September 2019, 10:06 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I really wish I could do something about "beclowned". It's the "throw under the bus" of whatever year this is.
Coin a new expression! "Bus clowned"!

"Boy, Biden really bus clowned himself with that story about a razor fight with a guy named Corn Pop!"
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:34 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
That's a pretty mild dismissal. I've been told that Snopes is a Democratic propaganda site secretly funded by George Soros. The man seems to be involved in everything.
Politifact says no, but that's just because they're another commie Soros site!
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Yeah, Reddit is a true trash fire these days.

I know, I know - smaller subs are still supposedly cool, Reddit is all about how you tailor your experience, etc. I'm not sure. Politics really seems to be leaking all over that site, and people just go there to fight and nitpick.

*has moment of self-awareness*

Haha, oh well, at least there's kind of a sense of community here.
I visit about a dozen subreddits every day. None of them get political leakage. Even the obviously political one (the only political one on my list) puts a lot of effort into keeping a narrow focus and rejecting political leakage/expansion.

There's also hardly any fighting/nitpicking. Mostly just complaints about reposts.
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Old 17th September 2019, 01:04 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I visit about a dozen subreddits every day. None of them get political leakage. Even the obviously political one (the only political one on my list) puts a lot of effort into keeping a narrow focus and rejecting political leakage/expansion.

There's also hardly any fighting/nitpicking. Mostly just complaints about reposts.
Reposting should be an automatic ban.
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Old 17th September 2019, 02:15 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think Brainster seems to take exception to the article pointing out that, historically, white entrepreneurs have been known to take credit for recipes or other fruits of labor or ingenuity by people of color, and would have preferred if Snopes omitted that context altogether and simply declared that the lack of corroborating evidence for this specific claim makes it "false".
Historically entrepreneurs have been known to take credit for recipes or other fruits of labor or ingenuity by other people. Period. If these thieving entrepreneurs have been predominantly white it's only because entrepreneurs in general have historically been white. And the people they have been stealing ideas from have been other white people.

The notion that there is a long history of white people stealing the ingenuity of people of color is absurd.

I saw an anonymous post on a website that said Oprah Winfrey stole the idea for her talk show from a white man. Somebody on Facebook said the exact same thing. There's really no concrete evidence that the idea for her talk show wasn't hers but considering the long history of blacks stealing from whites, Snopes would no doubt answer the question "Did Oprah steal the idea for her talk show from a white man?" as "unproven...but alluding to a deeper truth"
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Old 17th September 2019, 02:15 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I visit about a dozen subreddits every day. None of them get political leakage. Even the obviously political one (the only political one on my list) puts a lot of effort into keeping a narrow focus and rejecting political leakage/expansion.

There's also hardly any fighting/nitpicking. Mostly just complaints about reposts.
I still like r/totallynotrobots, lol.

Actually, I do have one non-goofy sub I visit that's still pretty good. It's just a bit slow sometimes because of the very thing that's keeping it good - smaller community. I don't post on Reddit at all, though. I just subscribe to certain subs and read. Lately, some of them have been pissing me off with annoying political leakage, turning what is supposed to be a quick reading break into an additional aggravation.

But on topic - I don't think this Snopes situation constitutes beclownage. It's just them following their own categorizations, which have always been pretty much the same.
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Old 17th September 2019, 02:26 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Historically entrepreneurs have been known to take credit for recipes or other fruits of labor or ingenuity by other people. Period. If these thieving entrepreneurs have been predominantly white it's only because entrepreneurs in general have historically been white. And the people they have been stealing ideas from have been other white people.

The notion that there is a long history of white people stealing the ingenuity of people of color is absurd.

I saw an anonymous post on a website that said Oprah Winfrey stole the idea for her talk show from a white man. Somebody on Facebook said the exact same thing. There's really no concrete evidence that the idea for her talk show wasn't hers but considering the long history of blacks stealing from whites, Snopes would no doubt answer the question "Did Oprah steal the idea for her talk show from a white man?" as "unproven...but alluding to a deeper truth"
Don't you think that's sort of a joke, though? How can anyone steal the idea for a talk show? Once that idea was out there, it was out there. There's not much to steal. And the hosts of the first talk shows were white guys, so...

Its probably a joke.
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Old 17th September 2019, 03:48 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Reddit is all about how you tailor your experience, etc. I'm not sure.
No, that's true. Reddit is a curated experience. If something tends to annoy you, just unsubscribe. I use Reddit mostly for my hobbies and activities, including alcohol-making, computer-building, Linux distros, still more computer stuff, diet, recipes, exercise, reading, writing, TV, movies, and the like.

The closest thing to politics I bother with is r/Canada, because I'm Canadian.
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Old 17th September 2019, 05:19 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
No, that's true. Reddit is a curated experience. If something tends to annoy you, just unsubscribe. I use Reddit mostly for my hobbies and activities, including alcohol-making, computer-building, Linux distros, still more computer stuff, diet, recipes, exercise, reading, writing, TV, movies, and the like.

The closest thing to politics I bother with is r/Canada, because I'm Canadian.

"Unproven".

...

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Old 17th September 2019, 06:42 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I've never been impressed by Snopes; they seem to cherry pick what needs to be investigoogled and what doesn't deserve scrutiny.
Really? You mean they don't randomly sample from a pool of rumors which has been carefully weighted to remove bias, then publish each and every one regardless of how boring it is? How unscientific of them!

I'm not sure such behavior reaches the level of 'beclowning'. Then again, there seems to be a bit of it going around...

Snopes has thousand of articles, many of which are 'unproven'. Why did you choose this particular one to start a thread on?
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Old 17th September 2019, 07:21 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Really? You mean they don't randomly sample from a pool of rumors which has been carefully weighted to remove bias, then publish each and every one regardless of how boring it is? How unscientific of them!

I'm not sure such behavior reaches the level of 'beclowning'. Then again, there seems to be a bit of it going around...

Snopes has thousand of articles, many of which are 'unproven'. Why did you choose this particular one to start a thread on?
Don't expect a reply, the OP has left the building thread. Of course, the answer is that it didn't agree with his biases.
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Old 18th September 2019, 08:38 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Unproven".

...

I'm too polite to disagree, though, so it must be true.
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Old 18th September 2019, 08:57 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I've never been impressed by Snopes; they seem to cherry pick what needs to be investigoogled and what doesn't deserve scrutiny.
Well yes. Obviously they do. Anybody who is in the business of investigating things chooses what to investigate and what not to. It really couldn't be otherwise.

Quote:
Other black women have had their recipes stolen by whites:
Well yes, that would be true. And it's an example of them investigating things other than the particular claim, so I'd think you would be happy since you complained about them not doing that just a minute ago.

Quote:
Basically, although there is zero evidence for it in this case and lots of evidence the other way (which Snopes does cite)
Hmm, neither did you. What is this "lots of evidence" that the claim is untrue? Have you submitted it to Snopes?

Quote:
, gosh it's unproven and if you don't read past the headline you'd think there was some truth to the claim instead of just "truth."
I guess you might, if you are unaware of the definition of the word "unproven". Snopes appears to presume that their readers will not be.
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:27 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That seems to be a common complaint about fact-checkers. Why can't they have infinite resources to check all-the-things? It's almost like they have to prioritize which claims they check based on some criteria that doesn't necessarily match critics' priorities.
And why does reality have a liberal bias and conservatives have to use true facts and not alternate ones?
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Old 18th September 2019, 10:01 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I like Snopes and I thought it was a good article myself, although I might quibble with the rating. I suspect that some claims there rated "False" in the past haven't been more disproven than this one.
I think that is the honest answer, it happens on there from time to time.

I don't know why so many in this once skeptical forum have to go all tribal and circle the wagons about it.

When Obama did something ridiculous and /or disgusting I would call it out, does that mean I wanted Palin? No.

Have some balls and stop metooing, people
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:29 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I'm too polite to disagree, though, so it must be true.

Okay. That may not be proof of Canadianism, but as evidence it is certainly compelling.

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Old 18th September 2019, 05:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Yes, that is the complaint. One of them, anyway.

Is it a legitimate complaint or does it suggest confirmation bias on the art of the complainer? Are people merely remembering the times Snopes debunked conservative claims and forgetting when they debunked liberal claims? Or, far more often, Snopes mostly debunks non-partisan off-the-wall claims that former high school classmates share on Facebook and politics has nothing to do with it?
Even if we just restrict ourselves to political claims, I seem to recall "fake news" editors stating that they tried baiting democrats using the same techniques they used successfully on dems, and they were just immediately outed as fake sites and ignored. It was a minor aside in one of many investigations into the "Pope endorses Trump!" "Hillary only has 2 weeks to live, her doctor says!" sites, though, so I'd have difficulty digging it up.

What I've noticed both on here and on Twitter, though, is that republicans are *very* good at pushing around false narratives in the face of contradictory data (Ilhan Omar said "Some people did something!" and won't criticize Saudi Arabia! Obama said business owners "didn't build that!" Black Lives Matter is a terrorist group!), and tend to twist academic terms and black American slang into gibberish - such as the "Intersectional stack" or "cancel culture", both of which are plainly nonsense. Liberals have a bad habit of latching onto picking up on these terms as well, unless they're familiar with what the terms actually mean. We then see them outraged at supposed "double standards" whenever, say, a nonwhite person code-switches when speaking in front of a heavily non-white audience, as we've seen for Obama, AOC, *and* Kamalah Harris over the past decade.

I strongly doubt that this is due to any inherent superiority on the part of liberals - rather, it's because both liberalism and tech savviness are more common among younger internet users. In other words, younger people are both more likely to correctly ID fake news, and to lean way to the left, while their older relatives are both more likely to by strongly conservative, *and* to just accept falsehoods under the guise of "news".

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Old 18th September 2019, 08:15 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"Unproven" is what Snopes calls any claim that can't be verified. There's nothing wrong with this claim being ruled "unproven".

And no, nobody would see "unproven" and think "there must be some truth to this".
I disagree, "unproven" isn't a valid category for this claim because of the fact that it is literally impossible to "steal" a recipe, since recipes cannot be copyrighted. This fact also makes it extremely unlikely that he ever would have paid her $1200 for the recipe.
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Old 18th September 2019, 08:16 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
In the articles I've read it seems that their standard is to list a claim as unproven if there isn't evidence proving or disproving it, reserving false for claims with clear evidence against them or clear evidence of fabrication.

Seems like a reasonable standard. Why should you expect them to call this particular claim false?
Because it's legally impossible to steal a recipe, so it is simply not possible for the claim to be anything other than "false."
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Old 18th September 2019, 08:22 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In other words, "Unproven"*

Evidence doesn't work the way you think it does. A claim of "False" requires exculpatory evidence, i.e. a smoking gun that show the claim to be definitely untrue.


* That said, I would like to see them reach a conclusion of "Unlikely" in this sort of situation.
The exculpatory evidence is that a recipe cannot be stolen.
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Old 18th September 2019, 08:28 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
The exculpatory evidence is that a recipe cannot be stolen.
It's a bit more complicated than that.

Recipe Plagiarism in the Food World Is Still Rampant
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:08 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's a bit more complicated than that.

Recipe Plagiarism in the Food World Is Still Rampant
That article discusses literary plagiarism, which is an entirely different subject. It is never illegal to make any recipe that exists, whether or not it is in a cookbook. Therefore it would not have been even remotely illegal or thieving for Colonel Sanders to use someone else's recipe in his restaurant.

So the claim should absolutely, unequivocally be declared "False" rather than "Unproven" as its entire premise is wrong.

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Old 18th September 2019, 09:33 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
That article discusses literary plagiarism, which is an entirely different subject. It is never illegal to make any recipe that exists, whether or not it is in a cookbook. Therefore it would not have been even remotely illegal or thieving for Colonel Sanders to use someone else's recipe in his restaurant.

So the claim should absolutely, unequivocally be declared "False" rather than "Unproven" as its entire premise is wrong.
Except, as that article that you clearly only skimmed pointed out, it's a bit more complicated than that. Technically you are correct (and as we all know that's the best kind of correct) in that there is no law that makes recreating someone else's recipe illegal. If the recipe is written down there are copyright issues if you republish it directly. However, in the professional chef community, recipe plagiarism is considered at best deeply unethical - similar to a comedian stealing another comedian's jokes. It's certainly done, but people who do it are regarded very poorly by their peers.

The Snopes article isn't considering whether Sanders broke the law, it is considering whether Sanders stole the recipe. And it has not been conclusively demonstrated that he did, therefore the claim is unproven.
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:46 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Except, as that article that you clearly only skimmed pointed out, it's a bit more complicated than that. Technically you are correct (and as we all know that's the best kind of correct) in that there is no law that makes recreating someone else's recipe illegal. If the recipe is written down there are copyright issues if you republish it directly. However, in the professional chef community, recipe plagiarism is considered at best deeply unethical - similar to a comedian stealing another comedian's jokes. It's certainly done, but people who do it are regarded very poorly by their peers.

The Snopes article isn't considering whether Sanders broke the law, it is considering whether Sanders stole the recipe. And it has not been conclusively demonstrated that he did, therefore the claim is unproven.
I actually read the whole thing, and I wasn't trying to be pedantic. I view the term "stealing" as a legal concept, not a moral one. I've linked to an interesting article that discusses the issues in the context of France and the United States. The first quote supports my contention that there was clearly no "stealing" possible. I think it would have been better if Snopes had clarified that there was no legal issue here.

As for the ethical issues, the second quote addresses the fact that we're dealing with extra-judicial concepts that require mutual adherence to some kind of professional code, which I think is far too murky to wade into in the context of the Snopes claim considering the lack of any indication that either of these two personalities personally followed such a code. If that counts as "unproven" to you rather than "false" I can understand your point while disagreeing. I think it's clear that neither of the two individuals (one of whom was probably fictional) were part of any "chef community" that would have been concerned with such standards. It was just a guy opening a fried chicken stand and some imaginary woman.

Would it be any different if he had "stolen" the recipe from his mother? What made a recipe "stolen" or not in that era? By what means could one make a claim to have the right to prepare chicken at a restaurant using a particular proportion of specific ingredients?

Don’t Steal My Recipe! A Comparative Study of
French and U.S. Law on the Protection of Culinary
Recipes and Dishes Against Copying

Quote:
There have only been a few U.S. court cases, but courts have generally ruled that
recipes are functional and therefore cannot be copyrighted. An often cited case on the
interpretation by the courts on this issue is the Meredith case, a case involving a book of Dannon
yogurt recipes.46 Meredith had in 1988 published a book called “Discover Dannon – 50
Fabulous Recipes With Yogurt.” In the case, Meredith alleged that Publications International,
Ltd. copied many of the recipes from their Dannon book and printed in them in various
publications (some of them copying up to 22 recipes). The court stated that the recipes did not
“contain even a bare modicum of the creative expression” that receives copyright protection.
“The identification of ingredients necessary for the preparation of each dish is a statement of
facts.” and also: “[The] recipes’ directions for preparing the assorted dishes fall squarely within
the class of subject matter specifically excluded from copyright protection by 17 U.S.C. ß
102(b).” 47 In other words, the court ruled that both the ingredients and the directions were not
protected by copyright, because they are a “procedure, process, [or] system,” and copyright does
not extend to those things. Other cases, such as Lambing v Godiva Chocolatier, involving the
recipe for a chocolate truffle, have ruled in the same way.

Quote:
Empirical research, conducted in 2006 by Fauchart and von Hippel, concludes that chefs find
ways to protect their creations through norms-based intellectual property (IP) systems, and get
protection analogous to what they could to with legal means. 97 These norms operate entirely
upon the basis of implicit social norms that are held in common by members of a given
community. The authors identify three strong implicit social norms related to the protection of
recipe IP and find that accomplished chefs enforce these norms, and apply them in ways that
enhance their private economic returns from their recipe-related IP. (1) A chef must not copy
another chef’s recipe innovation exactly. (2) If a chef reveals recipe-related secret information to
a colleague, that chef must not pass the information on to others without permission. (3)
Colleagues must credit developers of significant recipes as the authors of that information.98
This leads the authors to conclude that information not afforded the protection of intellectual
property law may nonetheless be controlled and enforced by an effective intellectual property
regime based entirely on implicit norms. Their conclusion is that norms based IP is an important
complement to or substitute for law-based intellectual property systems.

https://scholarship.law.ufl.edu/cgi/...ontext=working

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Old 18th September 2019, 11:39 PM   #68
arthwollipot
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Some people have considered patenting recipes, I believe, but even that seems like it would be problematic.

Regardless, there is no proof that Sanders plagiarised the recipe. I don't understand how that should not be categorised as "unproven". It is literally that. There is a claim for which there is no proof - it is unproven.
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:11 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
I actually read the whole thing, and I wasn't trying to be pedantic. I view the term "stealing" as a legal concept, not a moral one. I've linked to an interesting article that discusses the issues in the context of France and the United States. The first quote supports my contention that there was clearly no "stealing" possible. I think it would have been better if Snopes had clarified that there was no legal issue here.
Which is of course why stealing jokes is a BS concept comedians try to push on the public.
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:13 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Some people have considered patenting recipes, I believe, but even that seems like it would be problematic.

Regardless, there is no proof that Sanders plagiarised the recipe. I don't understand how that should not be categorised as "unproven". It is literally that. There is a claim for which there is no proof - it is unproven.
And this is also something that is impossible to prove didn't happen as well. There is literally no evidence at all on either side.
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:19 AM   #71
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It can never be proven that's why it's false
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Old 19th September 2019, 07:05 AM   #72
Steve
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It can never be proven that's why it's false
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Old 19th September 2019, 07:15 AM   #73
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It can never be proven that's why it's false
Cool. Now we know for sure that god doesn't exist.
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Old 19th September 2019, 07:36 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Cool. Now we know for sure that god doesn't exist.
Oh snap!

Walked right into that one, app.
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Old 19th September 2019, 07:51 AM   #75
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It can never be proven that's why it's false
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Cool. Now we know for sure that god doesn't exist.
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Oh snap!

Walked right into that one, app.
I mean, I guess. I'm just struggling to parse the sentence.

There is a reason why something is false, but that reason can not be proven?

Also, which thing cannot be proven false?
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Old 19th September 2019, 10:45 AM   #76
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Old 19th September 2019, 10:53 AM   #77
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
That's kinda how I feel about word salad.
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Old 19th September 2019, 12:22 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
I disagree, "unproven" isn't a valid category for this claim because of the fact that it is literally impossible to "steal" a recipe, since recipes cannot be copyrighted. This fact also makes it extremely unlikely that he ever would have paid her $1200 for the recipe.
Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Because it's legally impossible to steal a recipe, so it is simply not possible for the claim to be anything other than "false."
Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
The exculpatory evidence is that a recipe cannot be stolen.
Recipes are often protected trade secrets. As such they can be stolen, bought, sold, and much litigation money can be made from them. See: Coca-Cola.
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Old 19th September 2019, 12:27 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Some people have considered patenting recipes, I believe, but even that seems like it would be problematic.
You can get a patent on a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, for a bit anyway.
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Old 19th September 2019, 12:29 PM   #80
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With the caveat that I've never heard of the following website and can't really vouch for it, here's some more information about the evolution of fact checking:
The 5 best unbiased fact checking sites for finding the truth

Oddly IMO it lists Google search results as a "site" that can be mined for truth, which is sort of true but seems to ignore the fact (if it's a fact) that search results can vary based on someone's surfing habits. People are given credit for being able to learn how to use search results critically and tell which sites are unbiased, if there is such a thing.

It seems to me that some people think dismiss fact-checking sites as unnecessary, irrelevant or biased, but do people really think facts don't matter? Facts, alternative facts, who cares as long as it makes me feel good? My own confirmation bias probably makes me apply this more to conservatives than liberals, but I'd really like to see the same rigor applied to the claims of all people running for office.
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