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Tags "A Wilderness of Error" , "Fatal Vision" , errol morris , Jeffrey MacDonald , Joe MacGinniss , murder cases

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Old 24th September 2018, 03:59 PM   #401
JTF
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Lunatic Fringe

Contrary to the assertions from the lunatic fringe, evidence found in/on the bundled bedding proved beyond all doubt that someone wearing inmate's torn pajama top transported Colette from Kristen's room to the master bedroom. What was found in/on the bundled bedding?

There were 28 blood stains found on the blue bedsheet. 26 of the blood stains were Type A, the same blood type as Colette MacDonald. Many of the stains were massive, direct bleeding stains. The other two blood stains were Type AB, the same blood type as Kimberley MacDonald. The multi-colored bedspread also contained several massive, direct bleeding stains from Colette MacDonald. In terms of significant trace evidence, there was a forcibly removed body hair with skin attached to the basal area found on the blue bedsheet. The CID could not source the hair due to the fact that only head and pubic hairs can be compared under a microscope.

In 1974, Paul Stombaugh was asked by government lawyers to analyze the unusual blood patterns and formations on the blue bedsheet. Stombaugh analyzed the patterns for over a week and came to the conclusion that many of them were fabric and non-fabric impressions. Stombaugh labeled each impression found on the blue bedsheet with a letter designation. The following are the impressions that Stombaugh identified, marked, and testified to at the 1979 trial.

•Area A Jeffrey MacDonald's right pajama sleeve cuff
•Area B Jeffrey MacDonald's right pajama sleeve cuff
•Area C Bloody left hand impression
•Area D Bloody right hand impression
•Area E Bare left shoulder impression
•Area E Jeffrey MacDonald's torn left pajama sleeve cuff
•Area F Colette MacDonald's left pajama sleeve cuff
•Area G Colette MacDonald's right pajama sleeve cuff

Stombaugh also found a bloody chin impression on the blue bedsheet and a bloody head hair from Colette MacDonald twisted with a bloody pajama seam thread from Jeffrey MacDonald's pajama top on the multi-colored bedspread. To Stombaugh, the entwining of the head hair and pajama seam thread, indicated direct contact between Jeffrey and Colette MacDonald.

The MacDonald defense team hired two respected forensics experts. John Thornton and Charles Morton both looked at specific impressions on the blue bedsheet. Their conclusions were as follows:

•Thornton agreed with Stombaugh on Areas A, B, and F.
•Thornton disagreed with Stombaugh on Areas C, D, and the shoulder impression located in Area E. Thornton theorized that the impressions in Areas C and D were the result of direct bleeding.
•Thornton never studied the impressions found in Areas E and G.
•Morton disagreed with Stombaugh on Areas C, D, and G. Morton admitted to Brian Murtagh at trial that Area G matched the morphology of Colette's right pajama cuff, but insisted that the impression was a bloody palm print. The morphology of a fabric impression involves its shape, dimensions, and general size.
•Morton never studied Areas A, B, E, F.

Paul Stombaugh's analysis of the pajama cuff impressions included a theory on how Colette was transported in the bedding. Stombaugh concluded that Colette was placed face-down on the multi-colored bedspread in Kristen's room, that the blue bedsheet was placed over her back, and that the back of her pajama cuffs left bloody impressions on the blue bedsheet. Stombaugh states that in the process of adjusting and lifting Colette's body in the blue bedsheet, Jeffrey MacDonald left bloody cuff, shoulder, and chin impressions on the blue bedsheet.

Finally, in the process of placing Colette's body on the master bedroom floor, one of the two surgeon's gloves came apart and a finger section remained inside the bedding. The Type AB blood stain on the lower left panel of Jeffrey MacDonald's pajama top, the two Type AB blood stains on the blue bedsheet, and the trail of Type AB blood leading to Kimberley's room, combined to convince investigators that Jeffrey MacDonald carried Kimberley to her room in the blue bedsheet.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 24th September 2018 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 24th September 2018, 05:38 PM   #402
desmirelle
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oops, wrong thread.

Last edited by desmirelle; 24th September 2018 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 25th September 2018, 02:55 AM   #403
Henri McPhee
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The Army CID and the FBI, including Stombaugh and Malone, were a bunch of idiots in the MacDonald case. Judge Fox is in bed with the prosecution, just using the law's delay, and the 4th Circuit judges are a bunch of rubber stampers. Judge Dupree was involved in corrupt bias. It was a mistrial. Detective Beasley was honest, and on the right murder trail, but he was not believed.
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Old 25th September 2018, 03:04 AM   #404
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
Stombaugh also found a bloody chin impression on the blue bedsheet and a bloody head hair from Colette MacDonald twisted with a bloody pajama seam thread from Jeffrey MacDonald's pajama top on the multi-colored bedspread. To Stombaugh, the entwining of the head hair and pajama seam thread, indicated direct contact between Jeffrey and Colette MacDonald.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
Why doesn't JTF learn about an honest forensic investigation by a real specialist expert? Al that crap from JTF about a bloody head hair entwined was debunked by Fred Bost in his short study which is on the internet:

Quote:
CLAIM 4 -- THE HAIR AND FIBER ENTWINED

Long after the murders the government added a "new evidence" claim. A bloody hair matching Colette's was allegedly found entwined with a long sewing thread supposedly from Jeffrey MacDonald's pajama top. This was viewed as damning evidence of a vicious fight. An FBI lab technician first introduced this claim at the 1974 grand jury investigation, saying this find was delivered to him that year in a vial -- part of the debris collected by the CID from the bloody bedspread found on the floor. The original laboratory note seems to suggest the entangled items were already mounted on a slide and delivered in a pillbox (SHORT #14). A general note written later indicates otherwise.

In any event, although it would be a common forensic requirement, the FBI lab technician caused no photo to be taken of the hair and thread before separating them (SHORT #15). The technician then washed away the alleged blood on the hair in order to make a microscopic examination (also SHORT #15). Thus, the only "proof" that a bloody hair was found entwined with a fiber is the word of the FBI technician.

There is something drastically wrong with his claim, however. Numerous examinations of the debris in the bedspread were made and recorded by the Army CID Laboratory during preceding years. CID lab notes show that a bloody hair was indeed found among that debris, but the hair matched Kimberly's hair, not Colette's (SHORT #16)In a deposition given prior to the Army hearing in 1970, the CID technician who controlled this evidence told how he washed hairs taken from the bedspread in preparation for making microscopic analyses (SHORT #17). The FBI found only one hair matching Colette in the debris given them from the bedspread. As shown, the CID had already found, examined, and cataloged that hair. How then did entwinement develop? If Colette's hair was the bloody hair, why was it identified by the CID as Kimberly's? And if the bloody hair was washed by the CID, how did it remain bloody for the FBI?
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Old 25th September 2018, 03:10 AM   #405
Henri McPhee
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There is a fair and just internet article about the MacDonald case at:

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012...rder-case.html

Quote:
Out of all the evidentiary and procedural twists and turns, I asked Silverglate to name the one that bothered him the most about the MacDonald case.
“The one thing that sticks in my craw above anything else is this: There were lab results. There was a re-examination of the fibers found on the bodies of Collette and the children. These fibers on the bodies didn’t match any fibers found in the MacDonald house. There were fibers from a blonde wig that matched the description of Helena Stoeckley. The FBI lab guy turned over two copies to Brian Murtaugh, the prosecutor. There’s a note attached. This note says: 'Brian, I’m giving you this lab report. I’m giving you an extra copy for Bernie Segal [the defense counsel]. You can give it to him.' Brian Murtaugh says, ‘Sure, I’ll give it to him. I’ll be seeing him.’ Well, Bernie Segal told me that he never saw it.”
In other words, an FBI lab technician trusted exculpatory evidence to a member of the prosecution team. Evidence the defense never saw.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 25th September 2018 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 25th September 2018, 04:54 AM   #406
byn63
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
MacDonald never carried Colette anywhere,
1. The bloody footprints exiting Kristen's room say otherwise
2. The FACT that the only Type A blood on the floor were the footprints
3. The FACT that Type A blood was found on the wall behind/above the bed
4. The FACT that Type A blood was found on Kristen's bedding
5. The FACT that lots of Type A blood was found in the m. bedroom bedding
6. The FACT that blue sheet had the fabric impression of Colette's pj sleeve
7. The FACT that blue bed sheet had fabric impression of inmate's pj sleeve
8. The FACT that inmate admitted all "alleged intruders" had on shoes/boots.
9. The FACT that Colette was found in the MB
10. The FACT that footprint showed the person who made it was carrying significant weight.
11. The FACT that the examiner who study the print in situ positively id'd it as being inmate's footprint.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
and Colette never hit MacDonald with a hairbrush, as Stombaugh insisted at the trial,
We do not know if Colette hit inmate "for sure" however, it is the most reasonable explanation for the abraison boo-boo he had on his forehead.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
and Colette never murdered one of the little girls as CID agent Shaw testified at the Article 32.
wow we can agree Colette never murdered anyone....too bad inmate cannot say the same thing....

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
You people are making it up. It's false evidence and obviously unfair.
No we are not making up the evidence. It is not "fake" in is accurate, damning, inculpatory evidence. It is not unfair to make inmate live out the just sentence he received for brutally, savagely, viciously slaughtering his pregnant wife and unborn son and his two precious little girls. Every single SOURCED piece of evidence points directly to inmate. period. I know you hate it when we insist on clouding your prejudice with FACTS but that is how the judicial system works. You present FACTS....
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Old 25th September 2018, 08:30 AM   #407
Henri McPhee
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The point is that the prosecution and Army CID and FBI, and internet posters like Animal Friendly, and other journalists had this theory without facts that MacDonald moved Colette's body in a bedsheet. The footprints do not prove this. They are just footprints. Segal always maintained that what JTF keeps saying is a chin fabric impression on the bedsheet was in fact a hand impression which was never fingerprinted, and caused by good old Bill Ivory.

Dr. Thornton testified at the trial that what Stombaugh said was what appeared to be a bare left shoulder was in no way a bare left shoulder. Stombaugh of the FBI was never qualified under the federal rules of evidence to testify in a courtroom on fabric impressions.

This is a quote by Sir A. Conan Doyle, in the book A Scandal in Bohemia:

Quote:
It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.
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Old 25th September 2018, 09:17 AM   #408
JTF
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Inmate Is Where, Now?

For the past 48 years, inmate and his advocates have waved their hands, stomped their feet, regurgitated debunked claims, ignored key portions of the government's case, and have lied their butts off when confronted with undiluted fact. The result of this carnival barking? Inmate was indicted by a Grand Jury, he was convicted at trial of 3 counts of murder, he was denied a new trial by the District and Circuit Courts, he was denied parole, and he has spent 37 of the past 39 years in prison.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 25th September 2018 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 25th September 2018, 10:44 AM   #409
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Boring ... and an alternative

Henri's unsubstantiated rantings are exceedingly tedious and dull.

I find it much more interesting to try to come up with a scenario -- however implausible it may be -- that allows for intruders. Of course, it isn't easy at all, and you simply have to change some elements of inmate's story, since it doesn't jibe with intruders.

[Since I'm pretending there were intruders, I won't use "intruders" as usual.]

Say inmate was in the mb when the intruders broke in (the living room just doesn't work for logistical reasons, as Freddy Kassab highlighted). Inmate retreats down the hallway, perhaps slipping, falling and knocking himself out momentarily(?). As he retreats, Colette screams out, roughly, "Jeff, Jeff, why are you {leaving me / doing this to me}?".

The intruders, perhaps bemused by the "big man's" cowardice(?), don't kill him. Instead, they bop him on the head, to keep him down/out, and proceed to kill the family.

Once they leave, inmate awakens/gets back up, and is mortified ... of how cowardly he will look if this story gets out. [I think any concern for his family would be, at best, secondary to him, based on our knowledge of him and his narcissism.]

Perhaps he moves the victims to show he had no opportunity to help protect them, because they were killed immediately in their own rooms?? This is one of the (very) shaky parts of the new narrative.

He figures he can out-smart the Army anyway, so he adjusts the story and goes with it.
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Old 25th September 2018, 12:32 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The point is that the prosecution and Army CID and FBI, and internet posters like Animal Friendly, and other journalists had this theory without facts that MacDonald moved Colette's body in a bedsheet.
Oh, for crying out loud Henri, my prior post said nothing whatsoever about moving a "body in a bedsheet". Nor have I ever made such an observation about Colette's body being moved. I simply called you out for reposting some nonsense from elsewhere on the internet, God knows where, by some fittingly unnamed B.S.er. Furthermore, with regards to that nonsensical posting, it was never my understanding that inmate had "2 operations" nor spent "9 days in ICU".
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Old 25th September 2018, 01:32 PM   #411
JTF
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Failed Parole Followed By A Challenge

SCOTT: Shortly after inmate's failed parole attempt in 2005, I put forth the following challenge to MacDonald advocates both big (e.g., e-mails to the likes of Harvey Silverglate) and small. Using the physical evidence as a guide, I challenged advocates to create a murder timeline involving 4 to 6 hippie home invaders. No attempt was made to take me up on that challenge. Two years later, I produced the following timeline.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com/html/timeline.html
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Old 26th September 2018, 02:01 AM   #412
Henri McPhee
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Judge Fox is in bed with the prosecution who knows about the law's delay, and the 4th Circuit judges are a bunch of rubber stampers, and it looks like the Supreme Court are a bunch of rapists as well. There is a bit of background to the quality of American justice in the MacDonald case in this internet article:

https://www.wral.com/news/state/story/11571669/

Quote:
The defense again questioned Crawley about whether Britt was there during the prosecution's interview with Stoeckley. "No, I'm not positive. I can't say with absolute certainty," he said.
Crawley was suspended by the bar in the mid-1990s for violating rules of responsibility in an unrelated case. He testified that he has a mental illness that began to set in about that time and is no longer able to practice law.
Joe McGinniss, who was embedded with MacDonald's defense …………..

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 26th September 2018 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 26th September 2018, 02:43 AM   #413
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
SCOTT: Shortly after inmate's failed parole attempt in 2005, I put forth the following challenge to MacDonald advocates both big (e.g., e-mails to the likes of Harvey Silverglate) and small. Using the physical evidence as a guide, I challenged advocates to create a murder timeline involving 4 to 6 hippie home invaders. No attempt was made to take me up on that challenge. Two years later, I produced the following timeline.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com/html/timeline.html
The timeline in the MacDonald case is quite simple, but JTF keeps harping on about it, and making it all up. As far as I can remember, the emergency call was made at about 4.40 am. Mitchell and Mazerolle must have started killing after about 2am. Posey made a statement that Stoeckley arrived home after that, but he was later discredited by Murtagh and Blackburn. I think he may have failed a polygraph, and he then got out of town after Stoeckley threatened to kill his cats.

Friar made a wrong number phone call to the MacDonald apartment, which Helena admitted happened, saying there was laughter and joking in the background and Mitchell telling her to hang up. I I can't remember now if Friar ever provided any exact time for his phone call.

There used to be a statement on the internet by a waitress in a restaurant saying that a gang of them had parked their car outside early that morning and some had gone inside and she found blood in the sinks. That statement seems to have been censored now, or I can't find it, or the Army CID just disregarded it as usual.

This is part of what I posted on this forum about the matter in 2016:

Quote:
It says in that defense submission in 2013 that at approximately 2.00 am Stoeckley, Harris, Mitchell, and Fowler left Dunkin' Donuts for the MacDonald residence. Mitchell was wearing dark trousers and a light colored mohair sweater and Smitty was wearing a fatigue jacket with stripes on the sleeves.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 26th September 2018 at 02:48 AM.
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Old 26th September 2018, 04:39 AM   #414
byn63
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The timeline in the MacDonald case is quite simple, but JTF keeps harping on about it, and making it all up.
The timeline is only simple when you use FACTS and that means that inmate did it.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
As far as I can remember, the emergency call was made at about 4.40 am.
Since the emergency operator in Fayetteville contacted the Military Police at 3:42am I doubt that inmate placed his call at 4:40am.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Mitchell and Mazerolle must have started killing after about 2am.
Since Mazzerolle was in IN JAIL he certainly wasn't killing anybody and definitely not at 2am. Since Greg Mitchell was not at 544 Castle Drive he also couldn't have been killing anyone there.....he was probably out drinking and maybe doing drugs so I guess TECHNICALLY speaking he was working on killing himself.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Posey made a statement that Stoeckley arrived home after that,
Posey made such a statement, but after having received money from the defense team to "move and start over" he admitted that he'd made up his entire story.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
but he was later discredited by Murtagh and Blackburn.
No, actually he discredited himself when he admitted that he'd lied about the entire story. He made it up and used the false story to get money out of the defense.


Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I think he may have failed a polygraph, and he then got out of town after Stoeckley threatened to kill his cats.
I don't know if he failed a polygraph, I just don't remember if he even took one in this case.....but since he admitted he made up his entire story and used it to get money out of the defense so he could move it is irrelevant. I seriously doubt Helena really threatened him or his cats - if he said she did then she didn't....all I can think of when I think of Posey is "liar, liar, pants on fire!"

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Friar made a wrong number phone call to the MacDonald apartment, which Helena admitted happened, saying there was laughter and joking in the background and Mitchell telling her to hang up. I I can't remember now if Friar ever provided any exact time for his phone call.
Nope, never happened. Even inmate has never claimed a phone call came in to the apartment that night/morning. Comments about this alleged call were coerced out of Helena in one of her many confessions that she immediately recanted.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There used to be a statement on the internet......
Really? another "used to be" statement? IN fact, I am sure the comments about the allegedly bloody sink at the Dunkin' Donuts is still at tjmis in the CID investigation documentation. Still, since NONE of the people Helena alleged participated in the murders actually participated the statement is immaterial.

Why do you insist on arguing totally disproven nonsense? Even the DEFENSE (that is inmate's lawyers, inmate, cleo/smq, etc) no longer believe any of these "talking points" are valid.
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Old 26th September 2018, 08:46 AM   #415
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by ScottPletcher View Post
[Since I'm pretending there were intruders, I won't use "intruders" as usual.]

Say inmate was in the mb when the intruders broke in (the living room just doesn't work for logistical reasons, as Freddy Kassab highlighted). Inmate retreats down the hallway, perhaps slipping, falling and knocking himself out momentarily(?). As he retreats, Colette screams out, roughly, "Jeff, Jeff, why are you {leaving me / doing this to me}?".

The intruders, perhaps bemused by the "big man's" cowardice(?), don't kill him. Instead, they bop him on the head, to keep him down/out, and proceed to kill the family.

Once they leave, inmate awakens/gets back up, and is mortified ... of how cowardly he will look if this story gets out. [I think any concern for his family would be, at best, secondary to him, based on our knowledge of him and his narcissism.]

Perhaps he moves the victims to show he had no opportunity to help protect them, because they were killed immediately in their own rooms?? This is one of the (very) shaky parts of the new narrative.

He figures he can out-smart the Army anyway, so he adjusts the story and goes with it.

What Kassab said is not evidence. He was most sympathetic to MacDonald to start off with, explaining how sympathetic and caring he had been when Colette had a difficult birth with her second child. Kassab was most severe in his criticism of the CID at the time, and of Medlin in particular, and his incompetence. It was only when Army CID agent Kearns went to the New York area to tell them MacDonald had been seeing other women, and of his plans to move to California, that they decided to perjure themselves as a matter of course at the trial.

Byn may be write about the time of the emergency phone call in the MacDonald case. I may be getting mixed up with the emergency phone call in the JonBenet Ramsey case, but I don't intend spending a lot of time looking it up.

http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...970-07-09.html
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Old 26th September 2018, 08:57 AM   #416
Henri McPhee
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Kassab had his head screwed on when he wrote this:

http://www.crimearchives.net/1979_ma...legations.html
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Old 26th September 2018, 09:06 AM   #417
Henri McPhee
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Posey was cross-examined in a secret voir dire court at the 1979 MacDonald trial so that the jury could not be swayed by his testimony, or the 4th Circuit judges, and journalists made aware of it. He said that he had been threatened with violence by Helena Stoeckley and told that some of her mates would come to get him. It was clearly erroneous by Judge Dupree. Let the jury decide, not a biased FBI polygraph:

http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...-17_posey.html
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Old 26th September 2018, 10:05 AM   #418
byn63
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Posey was cross-examined in a secret voir dire court at the 1979 MacDonald trial so that the jury could not be swayed by his testimony,
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...-17_posey.html

it was not a SECRET - Posey was one of several witnesses who went to chambers and the court voir dire.....NONE of the witnesses were then called before the jury because there was insufficient provenance....

of course, it is immaterial because Posey later admitted that he made up his entire story. HE LIED. (I doubt the jury would have believed him but why make them sit through BS?)

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
or the 4th Circuit judges,
what? the 4th would only get involved once the trial was concluded and IF an appeal was made.....

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
and journalists made aware of it.
The journalists of the world would have no bearing on whether or not a Judge or jury accepted someone's testimony as fact and/or what degree of weight to give (ie importance) said testimony.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
He said that he had been threatened with violence by Helena Stoeckley and told that some of her mates would come to get him.
He also said a great deal of things that he later admitted were totally false, he made up the entire story and he used said story to get $$$ out of the defense. He is not/was not credible and if he said Helena threatened him you can be pretty sure she did no such thing. William Posey liar first class and he admitted as much himself.
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Old 26th September 2018, 10:30 AM   #419
desmirelle
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"Henri McPhee confessed to me in the bar just off post that he and his friends committed the murders because Mac was screwing his girlfriend."

You want that hearsay admitted without voir dire? I don't know where you were in 1970 (or even if you were in existence in 1970), but I was underage (not even a teen) and in Oklahoma. That's what voir dire is for, Henri, to prevent someone going for 15 minutes of fame or evidence that's clearly false ("Mazerolle did it." - even though he was in jail.) from being presented to the jury and muddying up the true evidence.

Last edited by desmirelle; 26th September 2018 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 26th September 2018, 02:06 PM   #420
JTF
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Polygraphs

In 1971, CID Hall of Famer Robert Brisentine administered polygraph exams to Greg Mitchell, Bruce Fowler, Janice Fowler, William Posey, and Helena Stoeckley. Brisentine concluded that Mitchell and the Fowlers passed their exams. Stoeckley believed that she was inside 544 Castle Drive on 2/17/70, but Brisentine concluded that Stoeckley's excessive drug intake skewed the test results. Brisentine concluded that Posey flunked his exam which led to Posey admitting to the CID that he was a total b.s. artist.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
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Old 27th September 2018, 02:02 AM   #421
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by desmirelle View Post
That's what voir dire is for, Henri, to prevent someone going for 15 minutes of fame or evidence that's clearly false ("Mazerolle did it." - even though he was in jail.) from being presented to the jury and muddying up the true evidence.
In the UK, or at least in my area, gossip, and people who have knowledge in relation to a crime are not to be sneezed at by professional criminal investigators, or even by trial judges. It's what is known technically as INVESTIGATING. The 4th Circuit judges need to seize the situation like a man and stop just concentrating on the law's delay.
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Old 27th September 2018, 02:29 AM   #422
Henri McPhee
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Posey went into more detail at the Article 32 proceedings in 1970. There is nothing suspicious to my mind that Malley was supposed to have paid him $150 for his time and trouble. Informants get paid all the time in real life. It looks to me as though he just got out of town, and out of the MacDonald case in a hurry later on when he was threatened with violence, like Jan Snyder, and he was accused later on by the prosecution and JTF that he didn't tell the truth, and discredited by Murtagh, like Detective Beasley and Helena's lawyer Leonard, and Jimmy Britt:

http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...a32-posey.html

Quote:
A The only members of their family that, you know, got busted, there was three guys that got busted on …. Street, who use to come over there all the time, and all three of them was military, but two of them was getting discharged, and one of them got discharged and on the same day he got discharged, he got busted for LSD.
Q That person, who had LSD, to your knowledge, was he a soldier at Fort Bragg?
A Yes.
Q And do you know about what month that arrest took place?
A It was in, it was, you know, wasn't a long period of time before that case in February.
Q You mean it was not a long period of time before February 17th, 1970?
A Right.
Q Would you indicate whether it was more than a month, or less than a month, or what?
A It was within a month that he got busted.
Q What was her attitude to the fact that her friend has been arrested the day he was discharged?
A All of them were upset about it, you know. She was -- he associated with all of them, but he didn't necessarily associate with her, you know, her specially. They were all good friends.
Q Did she ever express what her attitude was toward the United States Army and Fort Bragg particular?
A They all did that.
Q And what was their attitude?
A It stunk.
Q That was her view of the Army?
A (Witness nodded head in the affirmative.)

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 27th September 2018 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 27th September 2018, 03:36 AM   #423
JTF
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The Liars Club

From 1970-1971, a number of suspects in this case were polygraphed. William Posey joined inmate as being the only suspects who flunked their respective polygraph exams. Inmate flunked a 1970 exam administered by Cleve Backster and Posey flunked a 1971 exam administered by CID Hall of Famer Robert Brisentine. The only other suspect to flunk a polygraph exam was Helena Stoeckley. In 1980, over a two-day period, polygraph expert Scott Mero administered four separate polygraph exams. He labeled the first day of testing as Phase One and the second day of testing as Phase Two. Mero determined that Stoeckley passed Phase One, but concluded that Stoeckley flunked the exams administered in Phase Two.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 27th September 2018 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 27th September 2018, 04:56 AM   #424
byn63
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Seriously henri - WHAT PART OF "William Posey ADMITTED he made up the entire story about Helena Stoeckley etal" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

It is not that his story was not investigated nor is it that he didn't get a chance to give his testimony in voir dire to determine its veracity.......he got investigated and so did his claims. THEN after failing a polygraph HE ADMITTED HE'D MADE UP THE ENTIRE STORY. Period. Therefore, anything Posey said at the Article 32 or anywhere else in re: this case is useless....false....fake....phoney
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Old 27th September 2018, 06:24 AM   #425
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by byn63 View Post
Seriously henri - WHAT PART OF "William Posey ADMITTED he made up the entire story about Helena Stoeckley etal" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

It is not that his story was not investigated nor is it that he didn't get a chance to give his testimony in voir dire to determine its veracity.......he got investigated and so did his claims. THEN after failing a polygraph HE ADMITTED HE'D MADE UP THE ENTIRE STORY. Period. Therefore, anything Posey said at the Article 32 or anywhere else in re: this case is useless....false....fake....phoney
There is a bit about Posey in Segal's closing speech at the Article 32 proceedings in 1970 which is true, though it's the usual Segal rambling and too long legal waffle. Please provide a reference when Posey admitted he'd made up the entire story, and if he did it was only because he was scared:

http://www.crimearchives.net/1979_ma...arguments.html

Quote:
I would say, sir, that Mr. Posey's testimony is entirely intact today and of a normal significance in view of the supplemental interviews of Helena Stoeckley by Mr. Ivory. It is really astonishing to me, sir, that we could say anything other than the fact that it is a fact that hangs out in bright lights, that although the local FBI agents, who are still here knew that she was fingerprinted, knew that she was brought in, knew that her prints were sent someplace for the investigation, say to Mr. Ivory that there is no interview in their files that they took that resembles the story she has told Posey, the story she said in the presence of Paul Bowman, the story she has told Mr. Ivory. And I do not think that we can accept the idea that perhaps some other FBI agents who were no longer available to the office heard that interview because that would be illogical in my mind because they thought that the local agents knew all about who was picked up locally, who was fingerprinted, and whose prints were sent forward, and not know the explanation for their whereabouts. It is extremely important, it seems to me, that Mr. Posey's testimony stands so clearly alongside of the story that we know from Captain MacDonald in this case. That is the people, the description, the girl with the blonde hair, the floppy hat and the boots. There is sometimes matters that are just coincidental, that happen, but one is defied in trying to understand how Miss Stoeckley could have anyone believe that one, she couldn't remember where she was between midnight and four a.m. under the influence of marijuana. I would state sir, again, that Mr. Ivory has stated in his testimony that there is no evidence whatsoever that marijuana in any way impairs the ability to remember. We have Posey's testimony that on different occasions that she told of using different drugs; mescaline one time which does not affect the memory; LSD on another time which does in fact clearly affect her memory. She in no way had by her statements to Mr. Ivory we heard in this courtroom, without having the cross-examination, indicated that she can discount or cause this investigation to discount Posey's testimony.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 27th September 2018 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 27th September 2018, 06:48 AM   #426
Henri McPhee
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There is a mention of Posey in one of Kassab's numerous moans about the Army CID investigation into the MacDonald murders. There is legible print of this if you scroll to the bottom of the page:

http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...assab-dod.html

Quote:
Findings: The girl identified by witness Posey as meeting the description of the female assailant was Miss Helena Stoeckley of Fayetteville, North Carolina. She was questioned early in the investigation by members of the Fayetteville Police Department and FBI agents -- not as a suspect, but because of her knowledge of the local "hippie" community.

Following witness Posey's testimony that Miss Stoeckley had hinted at having participated in the crime, she was re-interviewed by the CID agent Ivory. She claims to have spent the night of February 16-17 riding around alone in a car, but is unable to recall where she went. During the Article 32 hearings, Captain MacDonald was shown a police photograph of Miss Stoeckley (exhibit G-105) by Government counsel, and asked if he had ever seen her before. Captain MacDonald replied in the negative. No evidence has ever been produced linking her to the crime, and she has never been considered a suspect in the case by any investigative agency.

<<<<>>>>

Allegation No. 21: When asked by Mr. Kassab to provide protection for the defense witness who had testified that Miss Helena Stoeckley might be the female assailant, the Provost Marshal's office refused on the grounds that these people were civilians over whom the Army had no jurisdiction.

Finding: The office of the Provost Marshal, Fort Bragg, received a request from Captain MacDonald's defense counsel that the Army furnish protection for witness Posey. Since the Army lacks the jurisdiction to protect civilians in a civilian community, this request was referred to civilian authorities. Upon contacting the FBI with a similar request, the defense counsel is believed to have been advised to hire a private security officer.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 27th September 2018 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 27th September 2018, 09:40 AM   #427
byn63
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is a bit about Posey in Segal's closing speech at the Article 32 proceedings in 1970
The Article 32 is IRRELEVANT. Posey didn't admit to lying about things UNTIL AFTER THE TRIAL (9 YEARS LATER).

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
which is true
No it is not....although Posey had not yet admitted to lying.

Also, NO I AM NOT going to give you the information on where Posey admitted his lying, because JTF already gave you the information timelines etc and you can do your own research for a change. Remember henri - we are talking AFTER August 1979 so stop looking for arguments to support your prejudices from the Article 32 and/or mysteriously disappearing internet arguments.
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Old 27th September 2018, 10:43 AM   #428
JTF
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Posey Is An Admitted Liar

In 1971, the CID confronted Posey with the FACT that he had flunked his polygraph exam. Posey quickly admitted that a majority of his Article 32 testimony was a lie. Posey stated that he did NOT see Helena Stoeckley get out of an automobile on the morning of 2/17/70, and that he wasn't sure the automobile he saw that morning was a Mustang. The reference to the make of the car is important for Posey knew that Bruce Fowler owned a Mustang. Posey added that the genesis of this story was a dream he had "one or two months after the murders," in which a Mustang had appeared. Posey surmised that he may have conflated the dream with seeing Stoeckley walking towards a vehicle "at least a week" after the murders.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 27th September 2018 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 27th September 2018, 12:07 PM   #429
desmirelle
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
In the UK, or at least in my area, gossip, and people who have knowledge in relation to a crime are not to be sneezed at by professional criminal investigators, or even by trial judges. It's what is known technically as INVESTIGATING. The 4th Circuit judges need to seize the situation like a man and stop just concentrating on the law's delay.
So, where you live they don't investigate? Because that bit of "hearsay" I posited (Henri McPhee confessed.....) would have been investigated like, say, Helena's inconsistent stories, confessions and recantations, the fact that Mazerolle was in jail when the murders occurred, Kathy Perry's story that she helped kill two boys upstairs, the lack of evidence of anyone other than the Macdonald family were present that night all were.

Reading for comprehension. Take that course, you'll realize what you've been getting wrong for decades.

Oh, yeah, and GOSSIP is always questionable. It's not any sort of knowledge, it's opinion and hearsay. Your opinion is Mac your man crush is not guilty. It's wrong, but it's your opinion. You, as an AMATUER investigator might not be aware of that, thought I'd point it out.

Last edited by desmirelle; 27th September 2018 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 27th September 2018, 01:55 PM   #430
Henri McPhee
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This is a not very legible report on the polygraph of Posey. It boils down to the fact that, in his opinion, Helena Stoeckley was involved in the MacDonald murders:

http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...971-06-13.html
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Old 27th September 2018, 05:36 PM   #431
JTF
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Attention-Seeker And Proven Liar

HENRIBOY: Read it and weep.

http://www.crimearchives.net/1979_ma...oly_posey.html

The result of this polygraph exam "boils down" to the fact that he fabricated a majority of his Article 32 testimony. He admitted as much to the CID.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 27th September 2018 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 28th September 2018, 02:39 AM   #432
Henri McPhee
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There is a more sympathetic article about MacDonald, and the Posey testimony at this website:

https://medium.com/@lajp/dr-jeffrey-...s-6f09003ac918

Quote:
And she had no alibi for, guess what, just
those few hours in question — hey, big surprise. And, poor thing, she even
thinks she was in my house that night, watching Colette struggling with
Greg Mitchell, and Mitchell’s a, guess what? A brown-haired, left-handed
guy and the experts say Colette was killed by a left-handed guy. And
Stoeckley’s neighbor sees her arrive home that morning in, guess what,
a blue Mustang like the one Prince Beasley saw her in the night before,
and like the Mustang my neighbor saw drive by my house the night of
the murders. And when this Helena Stoeckley’s neighbor presses her she
says she didn’t kill anybody, hey, she loves children, but she might have
held the light while someone else murdered them. Jesus!
“Then they find fresh candle wax, and not just anywhere, mind you.
They find it where? On the coffee table, and in Kimmie’s room. And,
guess what else? Another one of my neighbors saw people carrying candles
toward my house. Candles! A guy at Dunkin’ Donuts sees a woman and
a black man come in to wash blood off their hands that very morning.

Last edited by Agatha; 4th October 2018 at 01:55 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags
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Old 28th September 2018, 04:02 AM   #433
byn63
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is a more sympathetic article about MacDonald, and the Posey testimony at this website:
Why do you INSIST on arguing points which the DEFENSE doesn't aruge? Arguing disproven points is doing nothing but muddying the water for any new person to the discussions, irritating the hell out of people, AND DISRESPECTING the VICTIMS! You apparently have FORGOTTEN that the VICTIMS in this case are Colette (26 and pregnant), Kimberley (5), and Kristen (2).


Oh, and no "expert" that actually examined and reviewed all the evidence ever said that the person who killed "them" was left-handed....in fact, the expert that testified I am fairly certain stated that a "person enraged could attacked either handed". Also, there are reports that inmate himself is ambidextrous.
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Old 28th September 2018, 08:24 AM   #434
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by byn63 View Post
Oh, and no "expert" that actually examined and reviewed all the evidence ever said that the person who killed "them" was left-handed....in fact, the expert that testified I am fairly certain stated that a "person enraged could attacked either handed". Also, there are reports that inmate himself is ambidextrous.
You are ill-informed. I only said it could be that Posey was ordered by Stoeckley not to tell the truth at his polygraph because he was badly scared at the time and he was not being given police protection. Noguchi is, or was, a respected Californian coroner who said there were multiple assailants and one was left -handed. Greg Mitchell was left -handed. It's true that Colette's stepfather Kassab once remarked that MacDonald is ambidextrous, but he never backed that up with any real proof that I know about:

http://www.crimearchives.net/1979_ma...i_opinion.html

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 28th September 2018 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 28th September 2018, 08:28 AM   #435
Henri McPhee
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More about Greg Mitchell being left-handed at this website:

https://jeffreymacdonaldblog.wordpress.com/blog/

Quote:
Two of the nation’s foremost forensic pathologists, Dr. Thomas Noguchi of Los Angeles County, CA, and Dr. Ronald Wright of Broward County, Florida, researched the fatal blows suffered by Colette and concluded that they were inflicted by a left-handed person. Greg Mitchell, the man the defense believes to have been Colette’s killer, was left-handed. Greg Mitchell’s blood type (O) was also found on Colette’s hands, but no type B (Jeffrey’s type). Despite the discrepancy in color, the CID lab tried to source the hair to Jeffrey anyway, but failed. [/url])

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 28th September 2018 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 28th September 2018, 08:51 AM   #436
byn63
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
You are ill-informed.
No, actually I am very well informed. I have read thousands of pages of documentation on this case.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I only said it could be that Posey was ordered by Stoeckley not to tell the truth at his polygraph because he was badly scared at the time
OMG, that is one of the MOST ridiculous comments ever made on any forum. A grown man (Posey) frightened by a drugged out teenager? Not! AND, JTF pointed you to the PROOF that Posey admitted to making up most if not all of his Article 32 testimony.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
and he was not being given police protection.
why would the police give him protection? No one was a threat to him. HE LIED about Helena and the mustang. What part of HE LIED are you not understanding? What part of HE ADMITTED HE LIED are you not understanding?

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Noguchi is, or was, a respected Californian coroner who said there were multiple assailants and one was left -handed.
Noguchi DID NOT ACTUALLY EXAMINE THE EVIDENCE. As I said before EXPERTS THAT ACTUALLY EXAMINED THE EVIDENCE DID NOT SPECIFY A LEFT HANDED ATTACKER. Inmate is ambidextrous, HOWEVER, it doesn't matter because as one of the examiners WHO DID TESTIFY said that an enraged man would not necessarily strike with his "handed" side. IN OTHER WORDS HE COULD/WOULD STRIKE WITH EITHER HAND.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Greg Mitchell was left -handed.
but Greg Mitchell DID NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE MURDERS. Inmate killed his family all by himself.
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Old 28th September 2018, 10:23 AM   #437
JTF
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Those Pesky Details

In terms of the brutal blows delivered to Colette's head, inmate's advocates have consistently ignored the possibility that inmate was using a two-handed grip when swinging the club.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 28th September 2018 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 28th September 2018, 12:16 PM   #438
desmirelle
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
More about Greg Mitchell {Snip of Henri nonsense}
Since Greg Mitchell (apart from Helena's false confessions) had nada to do with the case, whether he was left or right handed or used his feet instead is irrelevant. (Irrelevant means it has nothing to do with it the subject - your man crush's shining guilt.)

Last edited by Agatha; 4th October 2018 at 01:58 PM. Reason: fix quote tags
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Old 28th September 2018, 08:40 PM   #439
JTF
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Wait A Minute...

DESMIRELLE: C'mon now, a broken, bloody brown limb hair was found clutched in Colette's left hand. Although photographs from that time period depict inmate as having light brown hair, didn't he allegedly have blond hair? Although pictures from that time period depict Greg Mitchell as having light brown hair, didn't he allegedly have brown hair? Wasn't Mitchell left-handed? The source of that limb hair has to be Greg Mitchell? Right? Here we go, the DNA test results have come back and, ah, wait a minute. It says here on the AFIP's DNA chart that the broken, bloody limb hair matched the DNA profile of the Ice Pick Baby Killer. So, the source of the "mystery hair" and the wielder of the club was Jeffrey MacDonald. Imagine that.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 28th September 2018 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 29th September 2018, 02:10 AM   #440
Henri McPhee
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There were doubts and a mystery about that hair in Colette's left hand right from the start. Murtagh and the FBI lab hoped to put the matter to bed for the 2006 DNA tests at the AFIP lab by the legal trickery of substituting a MacDonald hair in place of the original forensic evidence. That kind of forensic corruption, or perverting the course of justice, is very difficult to detect or prove. It was a miracle! The matter is discussed at this website:

https://koehlerlaw.net/2010/05/on-mi...acdonald-case/

Quote:
Fatal Justice also details a long and horrifying list of abuses committed by prosecutors, investigators, and judges in the MacDonald case. While the list is far too lengthy to describe in detail here, you are left with the conclusion that Malone’s false affidavit was just the tip of the iceberg. The list includes multiple instances in which the prosecution failed to turn over exculpatory evidence in the government’s possession that would have confirmed large parts of MacDonald’s version of events that night. Other evidence that implicated MacDonald and that was used at trial to convict him miraculously appeared many years after the initial investigation.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 29th September 2018 at 02:12 AM.
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