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Tags Darlie Routier , death penalty cases , murder cases , Texas cases

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Old 27th July 2016, 04:41 PM   #121
Desert Fox
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With regard to the sock, it would have taken a female Olympic runner approximately thirty seconds to get the sock to its location. An average female runner would take about one and a half minutes. Would be out of breath as well and likely unable to speak on the phone.
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Old 28th July 2016, 04:36 AM   #122
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Ok, I read up a little bit more. Here is what I am curious about, that bruising on her arm. She doesn't' know how that happened. I have worked with battered women and haven't seen bruising that severe after some brutal attacks. If she was sleeping during her attack, how would that be defensive?
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Old 28th July 2016, 05:22 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
Personally, it's the sock. Not so much because it doesn't fit. Former FBI agent Brantley and Tom Bevel both testified about why that sock would be there. Brantley's theory was the sock could have been placed there to dispose of it. In order for that to be the case Darlie would have needed a reason to think the sock would incriminate her in the first place. The sock did come from her house but so did the murder weapon and she made no attempt to dispose of that. And yes, the sock did eventually show that her DNA was on the sock but in order for Darlie to have feared that possibility she would have needed to know that DNA could be detected in sources other than blood such as saliva or skin cells. Darlie doesn't strick me as being all that intelligent nor is there any indication she had even a remote interest in things like DNA or crime scene investigations. Plus, she was highly familiar with that neighborhood. If she wanted it disposed of and never found I'm fairly certain she wouldn't have left it laying out in the open.

Tom Bevel had an alternate theory that Darlie planted the sock there to stage the scene. As part of staging the perpetrator will typically break things, move things, hide things, etc and then weave them into his or her story. Using the sock as the staged item she wanted to use to bolster her story she would have said something like... I remember there was a sock on the hand he was holding the knife with, he put a sock in my mouth or I saw him grab a sock in the laundry room as he was leaving the house... Then when the sock is found she will hope the cops view it as a piece of evidence that confirms her story. The problem is she never mentioned the sock at all. I don't think Darlie would have taken such a huge risk to plant it and then not bring it up.

Since neither theory seems to fit I'll revert to if she planted it how did she do it? Damon had only nine minutes to live after he was attacked so that is our timeframe. Darlie was on the phone for 5 minutes 38 seconds (it should be noted that the entire time she was on the phone she was in the presence of Darin, office Waddell or officer Walling so no staging could have been done during that time). A paramedic testified Damon died roughly 1 minute after he arrived. 6 minutes 38 seconds minus 9 minutes is 2 minutes 22 seconds.

In that 2 minutes and 22 seconds she would have needed to go 150 yards round trip to put the sock there, clean the countertop, clean the floor, run the vacuum cleaner across the kitchen floor, wipe off a bloody handprint on the couch, put her own blood on her pillow and blanket, deposit a bunch of wet rags in the living room and hallway, break a wine glass on the floor and then pick up a few pieces and put them in an ice bucket and the tabletop of the wine rack without getting any blood on those pieces. I have trouble believing she could have done all those things in that amount of time.

There seems to be no explainable reason why she would take the sock down there nor does seem to be enough time for her to do it in so we have to consider what else could explain how the sock got there. And intruder discarding it there after he fled the scene seems to be the most reasonable explanation.
That seems satisfactory analysis. Back in the MacDonald thread Charlie Wilkes says

"Darlie Routier's husband was upstairs with the baby, so she'd have had to kill him too.

Beyond that, I don't know. One would have to understand the reason why she killed her two sons, and I don't. I think it's glib to speculate that she wanted to get rid of the expense, but it is true that she and her husband, who maintained the trappings of an affluent lifestyle, were about to face the humiliation of bankruptcy. Also, she had been struggling with her weight and taking diet pills."

Can you balance out what Charlie said there?
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Old 28th July 2016, 06:21 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
Ok, I read up a little bit more. Here is what I am curious about, that bruising on her arm. She doesn't' know how that happened. I have worked with battered women and haven't seen bruising that severe after some brutal attacks. If she was sleeping during her attack, how would that be defensive?
She didn't sleep through the attack. Most likely she woke up to the attack, started fighting back and then passed out (unconscious).
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Old 28th July 2016, 06:44 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
That seems satisfactory analysis. Back in the MacDonald thread Charlie Wilkes says

"Darlie Routier's husband was upstairs with the baby, so she'd have had to kill him too.

Beyond that, I don't know. One would have to understand the reason why she killed her two sons, and I don't. I think it's glib to speculate that she wanted to get rid of the expense, but it is true that she and her husband, who maintained the trappings of an affluent lifestyle, were about to face the humiliation of bankruptcy. Also, she had been struggling with her weight and taking diet pills."

Can you balance out what Charlie said there?
I'm not certain what Charlie was talking about. If the theory is she wanted to rid herself of her burdens the biggest one would have been the baby. If she wanted money Darin would have been her target as he had a fairly large life insurance policy on himself and Darlie would have collected SSI benefits for herself and the children after his death.

I'm never sure where this facing bankruptcy information is coming from. They had $2,400 in the bank the day of the murders. Four days later they had $8,000 in the bank. Darin had somewhere around $30,000 worth of customer billings on his books. They may have been playing fast and loose with their money but there is nothing to indicate they were on the verge of bankruptcy.

ETA: I went to the Jeffrey MacDonald thread to try to see the context of Charlie Wilkes (paraphrasing) "Darlie would have had to kill her husband too" statement. I'm guessing he is saying in order for Darlie's case to be exactly like MacDonald's case she would have need to kill Darin and Drake as well. If he's saying in order for Darlie's story about an intruder to be true everyone in the house would have been killed, that would be absurd. Darin and Drake were upstairs sleeping quietly. An intruder probably wouldn't have even realized they were up there unless they went up there to look.

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Old 28th July 2016, 11:41 AM   #126
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Just to dispel the bankruptcy myth...

https://darliefacts.files.wordpress...._statement.jpg

Does it look like they were hurting for money?
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Old 28th July 2016, 07:16 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
Just to dispel the bankruptcy myth...

https://darliefacts.files.wordpress...._statement.jpg

Does it look like they were hurting for money?
It depends on what their expenses were. Especially with your own business, you have to pay Uncle Sam. They lived in a large house and could have had a mortgage of several thousand dollars. Maybe they even missed a payment and had to double up. It is more complex of an issue than just looking at one bank statement, IMO.
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Old 29th July 2016, 05:00 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
It depends on what their expenses were. Especially with your own business, you have to pay Uncle Sam. They lived in a large house and could have had a mortgage of several thousand dollars. Maybe they even missed a payment and had to double up. It is more complex of an issue than just looking at one bank statement, IMO.
True. But the only two things that ever came up regarding their finances that even suggested they might be having money issues were the missed house payment and not being approved for a $5,000 loan. The Past Due notice for the mortgage was in the garbage because it had already been paid. If this were untrue the state would have refuted it. Since they didn't the mortgage payment must have been a non-issue.

Being denied a $5,000 personal loan isn't anything uncommon either. It would have been an unsecured loan to a guy who was self employed with a relatively new business.

If the Routiers were on the verge of bankruptcy or about to lose their home the prosecution would have presented evidence to prove that at trial. They didn't.
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Old 29th July 2016, 11:30 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
True. But the only two things that ever came up regarding their finances that even suggested they might be having money issues were the missed house payment and not being approved for a $5,000 loan. The Past Due notice for the mortgage was in the garbage because it had already been paid. If this were untrue the state would have refuted it. Since they didn't the mortgage payment must have been a non-issue.

Being denied a $5,000 personal loan isn't anything uncommon either. It would have been an unsecured loan to a guy who was self employed with a relatively new business.

If the Routiers were on the verge of bankruptcy or about to lose their home the prosecution would have presented evidence to prove that at trial. They didn't.
Prosecution will often blow financial issues out of proportion. . . . Debra Milke has a small life insurance policy for her son through work. Suddenly that became a motive to have her son murdered.
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Old 30th July 2016, 09:28 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Prosecution will often blow financial issues out of proportion. . . . Debra Milke has a small life insurance policy for her son through work. Suddenly that became a motive to have her son murdered.
So true. In Darlie's case not a single witness testified that Darlie was complaining about financial issues, foreclosure or possible bankruptcy. One is supposed to infer that a late mortgage payment (that had been made) and being denied a personal loan meant her financial world was falling apart. The truth of the matter is their bank account had a substantial amount of money it, Darin had quite a bit of money due to him that he hadn't billed his customers for yet and overall, Darin's business had been consistently earning more money each year. Killing her kids over financial issues is a pure myth.
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Old 30th July 2016, 04:11 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
So true. In Darlie's case not a single witness testified that Darlie was complaining about financial issues, foreclosure or possible bankruptcy. One is supposed to infer that a late mortgage payment (that had been made) and being denied a personal loan meant her financial world was falling apart. The truth of the matter is their bank account had a substantial amount of money it, Darin had quite a bit of money due to him that he hadn't billed his customers for yet and overall, Darin's business had been consistently earning more money each year. Killing her kids over financial issues is a pure myth.
I am being persuaded I must say, but have not looked closely enough.
You would be interested in the not dissimilar Mark Lundy case which is heading for another appeal.
Poor coot was accused of killing his family for a miserly 200k which would not go close to settling a land deal he was trying to put together.

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Old 30th July 2016, 05:43 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I am being persuaded I must say, but have not looked closely enough.
You would be interested in the not dissimilar Mark Lundy case which is heading for another appeal.
Poor coot was accused of killing his family for a miserly 200k which would not go close to settling a land deal he was trying to put together.
I stick with death penalty cases mostly. Not that every wrongful conviction isn't a travesty but with a clock ticking on these people...
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Old 30th July 2016, 07:02 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
I stick with death penalty cases mostly. Not that every wrongful conviction isn't a travesty but with a clock ticking on these people...
Ironically the death penalty for Lundy would mean he would be free now. The money and effort available for research seems to get proof of innocence across the line.
What is the current status of Routier's appeal process?
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Old 30th July 2016, 07:20 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Ironically the death penalty for Lundy would mean he would be free now. The money and effort available for research seems to get proof of innocence across the line.
What is the current status of Routier's appeal process?
Look at Damian Echols, the state had no real evidence of guilt yet tried to execute him multiple times. I would not trust that death penalty cases are any more likely to get proper scrutiny than a non death penalty case.
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Old 30th July 2016, 07:47 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Look at Damian Echols, the state had no real evidence of guilt yet tried to execute him multiple times. I would not trust that death penalty cases are any more likely to get proper scrutiny than a non death penalty case.
I have a hunch that with local conditions Lundy would never swing, but I could be wrong. It is very easy to prove his innocence, because he was 150 km away when his wife and kid were axed to death. The state had to create multiple impossibilities to lock him up, and currently the FDA are unaware of a crime being committed in Texas to manufacture evidence. The DP would get that investigation rattling along with conscientious objectors. The internet is an omnipotent disseminator of truth. The government agencies are still in denial, but the Avery case is blowing things sky high.
I like to think we are doing our little bit here and elsewhere.

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Old 30th July 2016, 08:23 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Look at Damian Echols, the state had no real evidence of guilt yet tried to execute him multiple times. I would not trust that death penalty cases are any more likely to get proper scrutiny than a non death penalty case.
Or Rodney Reed. Texas is itching to execute him even though it is well known a cop/convicted rapist killed Stacey Stites. Another cop may have even been murdered to cover it up. Or John Thompson. He was set to be executed in three weeks when his attorneys discovered the DA hid exculpatory evidence. When confronted and told he needed to fess up to the judge who presided over the case he told them he wanted a few weeks to think it over.

This is, unfortunately, the kind of crap people on death row face.
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Old 30th July 2016, 08:27 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Ironically the death penalty for Lundy would mean he would be free now. The money and effort available for research seems to get proof of innocence across the line.
What is the current status of Routier's appeal process?
DNA testing has been done. There is no ruling yet on her appeal.
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Old 30th July 2016, 08:35 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
Or Rodney Reed. Texas is itching to execute him even though it is well known a cop/convicted rapist killed Stacey Stites. Another cop may have even been murdered to cover it up. Or John Thompson. He was set to be executed in three weeks when his attorneys discovered the DA hid exculpatory evidence. When confronted and told he needed to fess up to the judge who presided over the case he told them he wanted a few weeks to think it over.

This is, unfortunately, the kind of crap people on death row face.
Another case that I have studied is Richard Glossip. He appears innocent by all the usual patterns, no motive or opportunity, which the convicted killer had in spades. Mary Fallin is another Madame Defarge. Plenty of those, I hope that cold hearted executioner faces judgement day.
I would be interested in opinions on Glossip here despite there being a thread somewhere.

In fact here it is if anyone knows any more.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=298247

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Old 30th July 2016, 10:16 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Another case that I have studied is Richard Glossip. He appears innocent by all the usual patterns, no motive or opportunity, which the convicted killer had in spades. Mary Fallin is another Madame Defarge. Plenty of those, I hope that cold hearted executioner faces judgement day.
I would be interested in opinions on Glossip here despite there being a thread somewhere.

In fact here it is if anyone knows any more.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=298247
I've read about him before. Innocent with zero chance to prove it.
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Old 1st August 2016, 02:36 AM   #140
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This Darlie Routier case is another great injustice and serious injustice in America. It's a few years since I investigated the case, but to my mind, then, the husband obviously did it, and he got away with it because of bungling Texas detectives and shady lawyers in Texas, who jumped to conclusions. Divorce had been planned, and the husband was involved in insurance scams.

As far as I can remember there were several irregularities, like for some reason the court transcription clerk for some reason inaccurately transcribed the court proceedings.

There seem to be unseemly wrangles between the forensic experts involved with the case. One of them was Terry Laber who was also also involved in the Jeffrey MacDonald gross miscarriage of justice case. Laber has an affidavit on the internet expressing his objections to the forensic prosecution evidence in the Darlie Routier case:

http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/Evid...its/laber.html

There is some background information to the Darlie Routier case from the internet which for some reason I can't link to this forum:

"Shortly after Horinek was convicted and sent to prison, Bevel, a sought-after trial witness whose home base is Oklahoma City, traveled to Kerrville, Texas.

He had been hired to testify for the prosecution in the capital murder trial of Darlie Routier.

Fatal mistakes?

If Bevel’s incriminating testimony against Routier was wrong – as two other blood spatter experts believe it was – there were a series of seeming missteps that compounded the damage, putting Routier on a collision course with the state’s needle.

Routier and family members say they were overwhelmed when Routier’s young sons, Devon and Damon, were stabbed to death in the family’s home. The family quickly became entangled in a web of law enforcement and media.

The sensational crime occurred shortly before 2:30 a.m. on June 6, 1996. Darlie Routier, who sustained cuts to her shoulder, arm and throat, had been sleeping on a nearby sofa in the family’s downstairs living room while Devon, 6, and Damon, 5, slept on the floor in front of the television. Darin Routier and baby Drake were asleep upstairs. Darlie Routier claimed she had awakened to an attack from an unknown intruder, who fled through the utility room to the garage.

Within minutes of being summoned to the scene by Rowlett police, crime scene investigator James Cron said he determined that the murders had been an inside job. Attention was quickly focused on Darlie Routier, and she was arrested days after the boys’ funeral. She and family members claim that police never thoroughly investigated other possibilities, even though several neighbors had reported seeing a suspicious black car near the family’s home on several occasions just prior to the murders.

After her arrest, Routier was given two court-appointed attorneys, Doug Parks and Wayne Huff. Friends advised the family that the court-appointed lawyers should be replaced with a high-powered attorney with a reputation for winning big cases.

At that time in Dallas, there was perhaps no lawyer with a bigger reputation than Doug Mulder. Three years earlier, Mulder had won a stunning courtroom victory – an acquittal for Dallas pastor Walker Railey, accused in the attack that had left his wife, Peggy, comatose. That case, too, had made national headlines and, as with Routier, public opinion was strong that Railey was guilty.

Convinced that Mulder was the man who would save her daughter, Routier’s mother, Darlie Kee, scraped together $94,000 to hire him.

“We got money from everybody that we possibly could,” Kee said.

The deal that Kee and her son-in-law allegedly cut with Mulder may have ultimately helped seal Darlie Routier’s fate.

As part of the alleged bargain, Mulder agreed to deviate from Parks’ and Huff’s defense strategy in one key area: he would not raise reasonable doubt for Routier by casting suspicion on the only other adult known to have been in the house when the attacks occurred: Darin.

The alleged agreement to protect Darin is detailed in the writ of habeas corpus filed as part of Routier’s appeals process. The writ refers to affidavits by Kee and Darin Routier claiming that there had been such an agreement. “As a result of this promise, Darin and Kee asked Mulder to represent Ms. Routier at trial,” the writ states.

Mulder denies that there was any such arrangement.

“In fact, (implicating Darin) was the first thing that made sense to me,” he said. “But (Darlie) was adamant in her position that she saw the man from the back and that it wasn’t her husband. I couldn’t pursue it on my own.”

Parks later signed a sworn affidavit confirming that his defense strategy had been to implicate Darin in the crime. He also stated for the record that he had conveyed to Mulder that he felt that Mulder had a conflict of interest with Darin stemming from his representation of him when Darin and Kee had been accused of violating a gag order.

Kee explained why protecting her son-in-law had been part of the deal she claims was made with Mulder: “I saw what the justice system was doing to Darlie,” she said. “And I didn’t want it happening to another family member.”

Darin Routier has denied any involvement in the murders of his children. However, in July 2002 – five years after his wife was sent to death row – he signed a sworn affidavit admitting that in the months before the murders, he told “multiple people” that he wanted someone to burglarize the family’s home as part of an insurance scam. He further stated in the affidavit that Mulder had agreed not to implicate him as part of his defense of Darlie.

Another key error may have occurred when Parks and Huff were booted. The pair had enlisted forensics and crime scene experts Terry Laber and Bart Epstein of the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. The men flew to Texas, where they examined evidence, met with Rowlett police investigators and inspected the Routier home.

Prosecutors with the Dallas County District Attorney’s office were preparing to claim in Routier’s upcoming capital murder trial that the injuries she incurred had been self-inflicted – a ruse to disguise the fact that it was she who had killed the children.

Laber and Epstein came to a different conclusion.........."
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Old 1st August 2016, 02:41 AM   #141
Samson
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
This Darlie Routier case is another great injustice and serious injustice in America. It's a few years since I investigated the case, but to my mind, then, the husband obviously did it, and he got away with it because of bungling Texas detectives and shady lawyers in Texas, who jumped to conclusions. Divorce had been planned, and the husband was involved in insurance scams.

As far as I can remember there were several irregularities, like for some reason the court transcription clerk for some reason inaccurately transcribed the court proceedings.

There seem to be unseemly wrangles between the forensic experts involved with the case. One of them was Terry Laber who was also also involved in the Jeffrey MacDonald gross miscarriage of justice case. Laber has an affidavit on the internet expressing his objections to the forensic prosecution evidence in the Darlie Routier case:

http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/Evid...its/laber.html

There is some background information to the Darlie Routier case from the internet which for some reason I can't link to this forum:

"Shortly after Horinek was convicted and sent to prison, Bevel, a sought-after trial witness whose home base is Oklahoma City, traveled to Kerrville, Texas.

He had been hired to testify for the prosecution in the capital murder trial of Darlie Routier.

Fatal mistakes?

If Bevel’s incriminating testimony against Routier was wrong – as two other blood spatter experts believe it was – there were a series of seeming missteps that compounded the damage, putting Routier on a collision course with the state’s needle.

Routier and family members say they were overwhelmed when Routier’s young sons, Devon and Damon, were stabbed to death in the family’s home. The family quickly became entangled in a web of law enforcement and media.

The sensational crime occurred shortly before 2:30 a.m. on June 6, 1996. Darlie Routier, who sustained cuts to her shoulder, arm and throat, had been sleeping on a nearby sofa in the family’s downstairs living room while Devon, 6, and Damon, 5, slept on the floor in front of the television. Darin Routier and baby Drake were asleep upstairs. Darlie Routier claimed she had awakened to an attack from an unknown intruder, who fled through the utility room to the garage.

Within minutes of being summoned to the scene by Rowlett police, crime scene investigator James Cron said he determined that the murders had been an inside job. Attention was quickly focused on Darlie Routier, and she was arrested days after the boys’ funeral. She and family members claim that police never thoroughly investigated other possibilities, even though several neighbors had reported seeing a suspicious black car near the family’s home on several occasions just prior to the murders.

After her arrest, Routier was given two court-appointed attorneys, Doug Parks and Wayne Huff. Friends advised the family that the court-appointed lawyers should be replaced with a high-powered attorney with a reputation for winning big cases.

At that time in Dallas, there was perhaps no lawyer with a bigger reputation than Doug Mulder. Three years earlier, Mulder had won a stunning courtroom victory – an acquittal for Dallas pastor Walker Railey, accused in the attack that had left his wife, Peggy, comatose. That case, too, had made national headlines and, as with Routier, public opinion was strong that Railey was guilty.

Convinced that Mulder was the man who would save her daughter, Routier’s mother, Darlie Kee, scraped together $94,000 to hire him.

“We got money from everybody that we possibly could,” Kee said.

The deal that Kee and her son-in-law allegedly cut with Mulder may have ultimately helped seal Darlie Routier’s fate.

As part of the alleged bargain, Mulder agreed to deviate from Parks’ and Huff’s defense strategy in one key area: he would not raise reasonable doubt for Routier by casting suspicion on the only other adult known to have been in the house when the attacks occurred: Darin.

The alleged agreement to protect Darin is detailed in the writ of habeas corpus filed as part of Routier’s appeals process. The writ refers to affidavits by Kee and Darin Routier claiming that there had been such an agreement. “As a result of this promise, Darin and Kee asked Mulder to represent Ms. Routier at trial,” the writ states.

Mulder denies that there was any such arrangement.

“In fact, (implicating Darin) was the first thing that made sense to me,” he said. “But (Darlie) was adamant in her position that she saw the man from the back and that it wasn’t her husband. I couldn’t pursue it on my own.”

Parks later signed a sworn affidavit confirming that his defense strategy had been to implicate Darin in the crime. He also stated for the record that he had conveyed to Mulder that he felt that Mulder had a conflict of interest with Darin stemming from his representation of him when Darin and Kee had been accused of violating a gag order.

Kee explained why protecting her son-in-law had been part of the deal she claims was made with Mulder: “I saw what the justice system was doing to Darlie,” she said. “And I didn’t want it happening to another family member.”

Darin Routier has denied any involvement in the murders of his children. However, in July 2002 – five years after his wife was sent to death row – he signed a sworn affidavit admitting that in the months before the murders, he told “multiple people” that he wanted someone to burglarize the family’s home as part of an insurance scam. He further stated in the affidavit that Mulder had agreed not to implicate him as part of his defense of Darlie.

Another key error may have occurred when Parks and Huff were booted. The pair had enlisted forensics and crime scene experts Terry Laber and Bart Epstein of the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. The men flew to Texas, where they examined evidence, met with Rowlett police investigators and inspected the Routier home.

Prosecutors with the Dallas County District Attorney’s office were preparing to claim in Routier’s upcoming capital murder trial that the injuries she incurred had been self-inflicted – a ruse to disguise the fact that it was she who had killed the children.

Laber and Epstein came to a different conclusion.........."
I like the idea of citing three suspects
1. Bushy haired stranger
2. Darlie Routier
3. Darin Routier

I am confident this is a trinary case, there is no number 4 to emerge from the woodwork.

eta as long as that baby was not being mentored by Stewie Griffin.

Last edited by Samson; 1st August 2016 at 02:43 AM.
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Old 1st August 2016, 03:43 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
This Darlie Routier case is another great injustice and serious injustice in America. It's a few years since I investigated the case, but to my mind, then, the husband obviously did it, and he got away with it because of bungling Texas detectives and shady lawyers in Texas, who jumped to conclusions. Divorce had been planned, and the husband was involved in insurance scams.

As far as I can remember there were several irregularities, like for some reason the court transcription clerk for some reason inaccurately transcribed the court proceedings.

There seem to be unseemly wrangles between the forensic experts involved with the case. One of them was Terry Laber who was also also involved in the Jeffrey MacDonald gross miscarriage of justice case. Laber has an affidavit on the internet expressing his objections to the forensic prosecution evidence in the Darlie Routier case:

http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/Evid...its/laber.html

There is some background information to the Darlie Routier case from the internet which for some reason I can't link to this forum:

"Shortly after Horinek was convicted and sent to prison, Bevel, a sought-after trial witness whose home base is Oklahoma City, traveled to Kerrville, Texas.

He had been hired to testify for the prosecution in the capital murder trial of Darlie Routier.

Fatal mistakes?

If Bevel’s incriminating testimony against Routier was wrong – as two other blood spatter experts believe it was – there were a series of seeming missteps that compounded the damage, putting Routier on a collision course with the state’s needle.

Routier and family members say they were overwhelmed when Routier’s young sons, Devon and Damon, were stabbed to death in the family’s home. The family quickly became entangled in a web of law enforcement and media.

The sensational crime occurred shortly before 2:30 a.m. on June 6, 1996. Darlie Routier, who sustained cuts to her shoulder, arm and throat, had been sleeping on a nearby sofa in the family’s downstairs living room while Devon, 6, and Damon, 5, slept on the floor in front of the television. Darin Routier and baby Drake were asleep upstairs. Darlie Routier claimed she had awakened to an attack from an unknown intruder, who fled through the utility room to the garage.

Within minutes of being summoned to the scene by Rowlett police, crime scene investigator James Cron said he determined that the murders had been an inside job. Attention was quickly focused on Darlie Routier, and she was arrested days after the boys’ funeral. She and family members claim that police never thoroughly investigated other possibilities, even though several neighbors had reported seeing a suspicious black car near the family’s home on several occasions just prior to the murders.

After her arrest, Routier was given two court-appointed attorneys, Doug Parks and Wayne Huff. Friends advised the family that the court-appointed lawyers should be replaced with a high-powered attorney with a reputation for winning big cases.

At that time in Dallas, there was perhaps no lawyer with a bigger reputation than Doug Mulder. Three years earlier, Mulder had won a stunning courtroom victory – an acquittal for Dallas pastor Walker Railey, accused in the attack that had left his wife, Peggy, comatose. That case, too, had made national headlines and, as with Routier, public opinion was strong that Railey was guilty.

Convinced that Mulder was the man who would save her daughter, Routier’s mother, Darlie Kee, scraped together $94,000 to hire him.

“We got money from everybody that we possibly could,” Kee said.

The deal that Kee and her son-in-law allegedly cut with Mulder may have ultimately helped seal Darlie Routier’s fate.

As part of the alleged bargain, Mulder agreed to deviate from Parks’ and Huff’s defense strategy in one key area: he would not raise reasonable doubt for Routier by casting suspicion on the only other adult known to have been in the house when the attacks occurred: Darin.

The alleged agreement to protect Darin is detailed in the writ of habeas corpus filed as part of Routier’s appeals process. The writ refers to affidavits by Kee and Darin Routier claiming that there had been such an agreement. “As a result of this promise, Darin and Kee asked Mulder to represent Ms. Routier at trial,” the writ states.

Mulder denies that there was any such arrangement.

“In fact, (implicating Darin) was the first thing that made sense to me,” he said. “But (Darlie) was adamant in her position that she saw the man from the back and that it wasn’t her husband. I couldn’t pursue it on my own.”

Parks later signed a sworn affidavit confirming that his defense strategy had been to implicate Darin in the crime. He also stated for the record that he had conveyed to Mulder that he felt that Mulder had a conflict of interest with Darin stemming from his representation of him when Darin and Kee had been accused of violating a gag order.

Kee explained why protecting her son-in-law had been part of the deal she claims was made with Mulder: “I saw what the justice system was doing to Darlie,” she said. “And I didn’t want it happening to another family member.”

Darin Routier has denied any involvement in the murders of his children. However, in July 2002 – five years after his wife was sent to death row – he signed a sworn affidavit admitting that in the months before the murders, he told “multiple people” that he wanted someone to burglarize the family’s home as part of an insurance scam. He further stated in the affidavit that Mulder had agreed not to implicate him as part of his defense of Darlie.

Another key error may have occurred when Parks and Huff were booted. The pair had enlisted forensics and crime scene experts Terry Laber and Bart Epstein of the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. The men flew to Texas, where they examined evidence, met with Rowlett police investigators and inspected the Routier home.

Prosecutors with the Dallas County District Attorney’s office were preparing to claim in Routier’s upcoming capital murder trial that the injuries she incurred had been self-inflicted – a ruse to disguise the fact that it was she who had killed the children.

Laber and Epstein came to a different conclusion.........."
I do not believe Darin was involved. There were no unseemly wranglings with the forensic experts either other than Bevel misleading a defense expert about the conclusion of his testing when it came to a particular stain. Terry Labor and Barton Epstein were brought on by Darlie's first attorneys. They began doing testing right away. When Mulder took over he met with them once. They made it clear they had come to a different conclusion than the prosecution when it came to the evidence and would testify for Darlie. Mulder never called them back.
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Old 1st August 2016, 03:58 AM   #143
Sinsaint
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I like the idea of citing three suspects
1. Bushy haired stranger
2. Darlie Routier
3. Darin Routier

I am confident this is a trinary case, there is no number 4 to emerge from the woodwork.

eta as long as that baby was not being mentored by Stewie Griffin.
List of suspects:

1. Sammie Luckus Cook Jr.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-...s/1450468.html

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/l...uspect-6405437
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Old 1st August 2016, 04:55 AM   #144
Samson
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Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
I skimmed that first link. Knifing to death kids and mom hardly seems a sex crime but thanks anyway.
Moving on,
The undisturbed dust on the window is explained by how easy it is to step over?
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:55 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I skimmed that first link. Knifing to death kids and mom hardly seems a sex crime but thanks anyway.
Moving on,
The undisturbed dust on the window is explained by how easy it is to step over?
You skimmed over it?

We don't know what the intruder's initial motivation might have been for breaking into the house. We only know the outcome. He may have been thinking he would break in, rape Darlie, steal some things and leave. Everything would go smoothly just like it had in the past for him.

The problem he may have ran into is that Darlie wasn't as compliant as his other victims. During the struggle and attack on her the boys woke up and saw him. He attacked the boys to eliminate the witnesses. At that point raping Darlie and stealing things wouldn't have been a priority anymore. Leaving as quickly as possible without getting caught would have been his priority.

If you look at the guys record he was breaking into houses and raping women on an almost monthly basis from 1995 up through May 1996 and then nothing on the record until he was arrested in November 1996 for credit card fraud. He was sentenced to two years for that crime in 1997. He was released in late 1999 (Darlie was convicted by then) and he resumed his pattern of raping women. Elements of his crimes included using knives and other weapons that he found in the victims' homes and used gloves or socks to cover her hands.

I suppose the argument could be made that he never murdered any of his victims. My argument would be there is a first time for everything. The Scarborough rapist never murdered any of his victims... until he did.
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Old 1st August 2016, 10:42 AM   #146
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Darlie's story was she ran after the guy as he left and that he knocked over a wine glass (IIRC) on the way out. There was glass everywhere. Why didn't she have glass in her feet?

Also (and it's been a while since I delved into this case) but besides the dust problem mentioned by Samson, I believe they determined the screen was cut from the inside and that the knife used to do so was at the house.
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Old 2nd August 2016, 02:05 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Darlie's story was she ran after the guy as he left and that he knocked over a wine glass (IIRC) on the way out. There was glass everywhere. Why didn't she have glass in her feet?

Also (and it's been a while since I delved into this case) but besides the dust problem mentioned by Samson, I believe they determined the screen was cut from the inside and that the knife used to do so was at the house.
We don't know how many glass shards were on the floor nor their exact location as they were never photographed nor collected. Based on the pictures I have seen the base was in one large piece and the stem with about half the goblet still intact was in one piece. That doesn't leave a lot left to be scattered all over the floor. Waddell testified Darlie walked into the kitchen and pointed at something so we know it's more than possible for her to have been in the kitchen without cutting her feet.

Hamilton testified he arrived at the house around 9:00 a.m. and started dusting for prints at the window. Linch, who arrived at 12:00 p.m. that same day noted household dust on the windowsill. Are you seeing the problem with this?

The window screen was cut from the outside. Linch, prosecution expert, testified to this fact. There was a fiberglass rod on the bread knife that was microscopically consistent with fiberglass rods from the screen. Linch has signed an affidavit stating other testing would need to be performed to definitively determine if the fiber came from the screen. The other issue is cross contamination. Hamilton dusted the window first and then worked his way to the kitchen. Linch signed an affidavit stating that the knives were delivered to him already dusted for prints.
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Old 2nd August 2016, 04:05 AM   #148
Samson
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Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
We don't know how many glass shards were on the floor nor their exact location as they were never photographed nor collected. Based on the pictures I have seen the base was in one large piece and the stem with about half the goblet still intact was in one piece. That doesn't leave a lot left to be scattered all over the floor. Waddell testified Darlie walked into the kitchen and pointed at something so we know it's more than possible for her to have been in the kitchen without cutting her feet.

Hamilton testified he arrived at the house around 9:00 a.m. and started dusting for prints at the window. Linch, who arrived at 12:00 p.m. that same day noted household dust on the windowsill. Are you seeing the problem with this?

The window screen was cut from the outside. Linch, prosecution expert, testified to this fact. There was a fiberglass rod on the bread knife that was microscopically consistent with fiberglass rods from the screen. Linch has signed an affidavit stating other testing would need to be performed to definitively determine if the fiber came from the screen. The other issue is cross contamination. Hamilton dusted the window first and then worked his way to the kitchen. Linch signed an affidavit stating that the knives were delivered to him already dusted for prints.
I continue to be persuaded Sinsaint. It appears you are able to provide original data. This data always solves these cases. I remain surprised that Charlie and Ampulla disagree. lol
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Old 2nd August 2016, 04:24 AM   #149
Henri McPhee
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I agree that there is no absolute certainty that the husband was involved. It's just that if you follow the evidence, the circumstantial evidence points to him. There was a case in 2013 in which the Darlie Routier prosecution forensic expert Tom Bevel was discredited in a David Camm case case which I know nothing about.

It has been said that the FBI consider the serial killer Sells is a suspect in the Routier case. Sells supposedly confessed to the Routier murders before being executed in about 2015 for about 30 other murders. People say that Sells was in prison in Georgia, or Virginia, at the time of the Routier case, but nobody has presented any accurate and true copy documentation of that which I know about.
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Old 2nd August 2016, 04:36 AM   #150
Samson
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I agree that there is no absolute certainty that the husband was involved. It's just that if you follow the evidence, the circumstantial evidence points to him. There was a case in 2013 in which the Darlie Routier prosecution forensic expert Tom Bevel was discredited in a David Camm case case which I know nothing about.

It has been said that the FBI consider the serial killer Sells is a suspect in the Routier case. Sells supposedly confessed to the Routier murders before being executed in about 2015 for about 30 other murders. People say that Sells was in prison in Georgia, or Virginia, at the time of the Routier case, but nobody has presented any accurate and true copy documentation of that which I know about.
I pray to a god who does not and can never exist that the people will believe the immutable data points
Today in New Zealand we have been delivered a scientific impossibility, the idea David Bain may have executed his entire family of 5

No, no, no ,no and no.

Completely impossible.
Trust me.
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Old 3rd August 2016, 02:37 AM   #151
Henri McPhee
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I just get the feeling that the FBI suspect Sells in the Darlie Riutier case but they want to stick to a mistake through thick and thin rather than admit it, like the FBI have done in the Jeffrey MacDonald case, the JonBenet Ramsey case and the Atlanta Olympic bombing case. I suppose there is no evidence of any connection between Sells and Darlie's husband, but I don't think that possibility was ever properly investigated.

There is an interesting opinion about all this on the internet from somebody called Patrick King who wrote:

"Tommy Lynn Sells during the murder of Katy Harris stabbed her repeatedly but slashed Crystal Surles' throat just missing her carotid, exactly as Darlie's attacker did. From a forensic standpoint there is NO WAY Darlie Routier committed those crimes. I challenge anyone to cut their own throat like that and prove it can be done."

There is more background information about all this from the internet:

"Bevel was the same bloodstain expert who was responsible for the wrongful conviction of David Camm. Camm, a ten year veteran of the Indiana State Police, was acquitted and set free on Oct. 24, 2013, after spending 13 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. A reconstruction of the crime scene, including a palm print and DNA, proved that the murder of his wife and two children was committed by a career criminal who was motivated by shoe fetish. Bevel interpreted eight tiny dots of blood on Camm’s t-shirt and concluded these were created by high velocity impact spatter from having fired the gun that killed his family. Some of the most respected bloodstain analyst in the county came to a different conclusion—that these stains were transferred from the hairs of his daughter when David attempted CPR on his son.

Bloodstain scientists Terry Laber and Bart Epstein, who assisted with the defense of David Camm, were hired by Darlie Routier’s public defenders. They analyzed the bloodstain interpretations of Bevel and came to a different conclusion about these patterns. They provided a favorable report to her defense attorneys. However, the testimony of the prosecution’s bloodstain expert, Tom Bevel, went unchallenged. A private attorney was hired by Darlie’s family a month before trial and failed to call Laber or Epstein. He told the family he thought he could handle this through his cross-examination of Bevel. The attorney kept the retainer for himself, and spared the family the expense of flying the experts to Dallas.

Darlie’s case is very similar to another mother who was wrongfully convicted of stabbing her 10 year-old son. On Oct. 13, 1987, in Lawrenceville, IL, Julie Rea was awaked at 4 a.m. to the sound of her son’s scream. When she rushed to his room across the hall, in the dark of the night, she collided with a child serial killer, Tommy Lynn Sells. He dropped the knife on the floor, and began beating her with his fists. Despite physical injuries, including a gash on her arm, a black eye, bruises and abrasions, Julie became the prime suspect. She was charged with capital murder three years later, after the elected prosecutor who resisted pressure to arrest her left office. A new prosecutor hired bloodstain “expert” Rodney Englert, who examined Julie’s nightshirt and found what he interpreted as evidence of “cast-off”. After she was convicted in March of 2002, True crime author Diane Fanning published Through the Window: The Terrifying True Story of Cross-Country Killer Tommy Lynn Sells. Sells told Fanning about a murder in Illinois in which he had killed a child and was startled by the mother who came into the room. Two years later, Texas Ranger John Allen provided an affidavit in support of Julie’s petition for a new trial. The Illinois Innocence Project had corroborated the serial killer’s confession. Julie was acquitted in a new trial, and the courts have issued her a Certificate of Innocence.

Darlie Routier, however, remains on death row in Texas, awaiting execution based on the same bloodstain interpretation evidence that convicted Julie Rea. Private investigator Gary Dunn commented after the release of his client, David Camm: “Bloodstain evidence is mostly subjective. One bloodstain expert said it’s like looking at the clouds, they all see something different”.

In 2009, the National Academy of Sciences released a critique of forensic science practices in U.S. courtrooms, noting that since the introduction of DNA testing in 1989 that “faulty science” was found to be responsible for the wrongful convictions in a number of post-conviction DNA exonerations. Bloodstain Pattern Analysis (BPA) was one of the disciplines that was criticized because of the interjection of “examiner bias”. The report noted “many sources of variability arise with the production of bloodstain patterns, and their interpretation is not nearly as straightforward as the process implies”. The report found, “some experts extrapolate far beyond what can be supported”, and went on to conclude that “extra care must be given to the way in which the analyses are presented in court. The uncertainties associated with bloodstain pattern analysis are enormous”. (Source: Strengthening Forensic Science in the United States: A Path Forward, The National Academies Press, Washington DC (2009), pp. 42, 177-179.)

With this much uncertainty and doubt about the reliability of the interpretations of bloodstain experts like Tom Bevel, can we tolerate the execution of a woman who has always maintained her innocence. Can we tolerate the execution of Darlie Routier, who by all appearance, was a crime victim, along with her children who died that night?"

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 3rd August 2016 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 3rd August 2016, 04:32 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I just get the feeling that the FBI suspect Sells in the Darlie Riutier case but they want to stick to a mistake through thick and thin rather than admit it, like the FBI have done in the Jeffrey MacDonald case, the JonBenet Ramsey case and the Atlanta Olympic bombing case. I suppose there is no evidence of any connection between Sells and Darlie's husband, but I don't think that possibility was ever properly investigated.

There is an interesting opinion about all this on the internet from somebody called Patrick King who wrote:

"Tommy Lynn Sells during the murder of Katy Harris stabbed her repeatedly but slashed Crystal Surles' throat just missing her carotid, exactly as Darlie's attacker did. From a forensic standpoint there is NO WAY Darlie Routier committed those crimes. I challenge anyone to cut their own throat like that and prove it can be done."

There is more background information about all this from the internet:

"Bevel was the same bloodstain expert who was responsible for the wrongful conviction of David Camm. Camm, a ten year veteran of the Indiana State Police, was acquitted and set free on Oct. 24, 2013, after spending 13 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. A reconstruction of the crime scene, including a palm print and DNA, proved that the murder of his wife and two children was committed by a career criminal who was motivated by shoe fetish. Bevel interpreted eight tiny dots of blood on Camm’s t-shirt and concluded these were created by high velocity impact spatter from having fired the gun that killed his family. Some of the most respected bloodstain analyst in the county came to a different conclusion—that these stains were transferred from the hairs of his daughter when David attempted CPR on his son.

Bloodstain scientists Terry Laber and Bart Epstein, who assisted with the defense of David Camm, were hired by Darlie Routier’s public defenders. They analyzed the bloodstain interpretations of Bevel and came to a different conclusion about these patterns. They provided a favorable report to her defense attorneys. However, the testimony of the prosecution’s bloodstain expert, Tom Bevel, went unchallenged. A private attorney was hired by Darlie’s family a month before trial and failed to call Laber or Epstein. He told the family he thought he could handle this through his cross-examination of Bevel. The attorney kept the retainer for himself, and spared the family the expense of flying the experts to Dallas.

Darlie’s case is very similar to another mother who was wrongfully convicted of stabbing her 10 year-old son. On Oct. 13, 1987, in Lawrenceville, IL, Julie Rea was awaked at 4 a.m. to the sound of her son’s scream. When she rushed to his room across the hall, in the dark of the night, she collided with a child serial killer, Tommy Lynn Sells. He dropped the knife on the floor, and began beating her with his fists. Despite physical injuries, including a gash on her arm, a black eye, bruises and abrasions, Julie became the prime suspect. She was charged with capital murder three years later, after the elected prosecutor who resisted pressure to arrest her left office. A new prosecutor hired bloodstain “expert” Rodney Englert, who examined Julie’s nightshirt and found what he interpreted as evidence of “cast-off”. After she was convicted in March of 2002, True crime author Diane Fanning published Through the Window: The Terrifying True Story of Cross-Country Killer Tommy Lynn Sells. Sells told Fanning about a murder in Illinois in which he had killed a child and was startled by the mother who came into the room. Two years later, Texas Ranger John Allen provided an affidavit in support of Julie’s petition for a new trial. The Illinois Innocence Project had corroborated the serial killer’s confession. Julie was acquitted in a new trial, and the courts have issued her a Certificate of Innocence.

Darlie Routier, however, remains on death row in Texas, awaiting execution based on the same bloodstain interpretation evidence that convicted Julie Rea. Private investigator Gary Dunn commented after the release of his client, David Camm: “Bloodstain evidence is mostly subjective. One bloodstain expert said it’s like looking at the clouds, they all see something different”.

In 2009, the National Academy of Sciences released a critique of forensic science practices in U.S. courtrooms, noting that since the introduction of DNA testing in 1989 that “faulty science” was found to be responsible for the wrongful convictions in a number of post-conviction DNA exonerations. Bloodstain Pattern Analysis (BPA) was one of the disciplines that was criticized because of the interjection of “examiner bias”. The report noted “many sources of variability arise with the production of bloodstain patterns, and their interpretation is not nearly as straightforward as the process implies”. The report found, “some experts extrapolate far beyond what can be supported”, and went on to conclude that “extra care must be given to the way in which the analyses are presented in court. The uncertainties associated with bloodstain pattern analysis are enormous”. (Source: Strengthening Forensic Science in the United States: A Path Forward, The National Academies Press, Washington DC (2009), pp. 42, 177-179.)

With this much uncertainty and doubt about the reliability of the interpretations of bloodstain experts like Tom Bevel, can we tolerate the execution of a woman who has always maintained her innocence. Can we tolerate the execution of Darlie Routier, who by all appearance, was a crime victim, along with her children who died that night?"
There is evidence Sells was incarcerated at the time. He wasn't involved. The issue I have is the use of BPA that, after reading Bevel's testimony, doesn't make much sense and the microscopic fiber analysis. As we all know microscopic fiber analysis isn't accurate. Trilobal carpet fibers comes to mind.
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Old 3rd August 2016, 08:51 AM   #153
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
There is evidence Sells was incarcerated at the time. He wasn't involved. The issue I have is the use of BPA that, after reading Bevel's testimony, doesn't make much sense and the microscopic fiber analysis. As we all know microscopic fiber analysis isn't accurate. Trilobal carpet fibers comes to mind.
In a way I agree with you.There is something on the internet that Sells was released from prison in May 1997 which would exclude him from the Routier murders. Sells was a thoroughly nasty piece of work and bragged before he was executed in 2014 that he had murdered up to 70 people during his lifetime. The Routier murders are similar to other murders committed by Sells.

The problem I have with this is that I would like to see some hard documentary evidence that he was released from prison in May 1997. There is such a thing as parole in America. In the Jeffrey MacDonald case a prime suspect, Mazerolle, has an 'iron-clad' alibi that he was in jail at the time of the MacDonald murders when Detective Beasley was convinced he was out on bail at the time.

Like the MacDonald case and the JonBenet Ramsey case it looks like the real culprits in the Routier case will now never be caught. It is the innocent who suffer.

There is an interesting opinion about all this on the internet from somebody called carebears:

"Julie Rea Harper was arrested a couple of years after her son Joel Kirkpatrick's murder and given a new trial and acquitted. She is just like Darlie always claiming that an intruder killed her son. Serial Killer Tommy Lynn Sells confessed to killing the Routier boys and confessed to killing Joel after seeing Joel's story on 20/20. I am not sure if Sells killed the Routier boys like he confessed because he could have been in prison in June 1996, but I have other people on my list of suspects such as Chad Patterson,Barry Fife, and Ben Claybour. The FBI considers Sells a suspect in the Routier case but he has not been charged with the Routier boys. I am not totally sure who killed those precious boys and committed such a heinous crime but I believe with all my heart and soul that Darlie is 100% innocent. Crimewriter Barbara Davis thought Darlie did it too but she saw photos of Darlie's wounds that she claims were not seen at trial. Charlie Stamford a juror at Darlie's trial said he didn't see the photos either and now says he made a mistake in sending Darlie to death row and saying guilty. Routier is a very forgiving person and forgave Charlie for saying guilty in her 97 trial. Barbara Davis who told the world Darlie was guilty in her book Precious Angels now feels Darlie is innocent and believes in Darlie's innocence so much that she has become friends with the family and donates all proceeds from the book to Darlie's defense fund."
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Old 6th August 2016, 01:09 PM   #154
desmirelle
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Before Barbara Davis' son was killed by the police in her home, she thought Darlie was guilty. Her book (Precious Angels) gives a rundown of placing the sock in the alley - by Barbara herself, no Olympic runner & she says it can be done. The photos Barbara and the juror claim not to have seen were in evidence; their NOT looking at the evidence is not evidence of a coverup, it's evidence of a lazy juror and a writer who didn't do her job correctly. The only two people who did something wrong were the juror and Davis, everyone else seems to have looked at the evidence.

I bought my copy at a used book store; Routier's made nada from me.

Last edited by desmirelle; 6th August 2016 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 6th August 2016, 04:19 PM   #155
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My thought are that I don't know if she is guilty or not but I think there very well be reasonable doubt. That will not get a conviction overturned.

Even if I am wrong and there is less doubt than I think there is, it definitely should not be a low enough doubt level for her to be executed.
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Old 8th August 2016, 01:40 AM   #156
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by desmirelle View Post
Before Barbara Davis' son was killed by the police in her home, she thought Darlie was guilty. Her book (Precious Angels) gives a rundown of placing the sock in the alley - by Barbara herself, no Olympic runner & she says it can be done. The photos Barbara and the juror claim not to have seen were in evidence; their NOT looking at the evidence is not evidence of a coverup, it's evidence of a lazy juror and a writer who didn't do her job correctly. The only two people who did something wrong were the juror and Davis, everyone else seems to have looked at the evidence.

I bought my copy at a used book store; Routier's made nada from me.
My memory of that incident with regard to Barbara Davis' son was that a large group of heavily armed police bashed down the front door, and promptly shot dead the Barbara Davis son. He did not attempt to resist arrest. There was supposed to be marijuana inside. Quite naturally Barbara Davis was a bit upset about it all. There should have been a careful investigation.
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Old 9th August 2016, 09:12 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by desmirelle View Post
Before Barbara Davis' son was killed by the police in her home, she thought Darlie was guilty. Her book (Precious Angels) gives a rundown of placing the sock in the alley - by Barbara herself, no Olympic runner & she says it can be done. The photos Barbara and the juror claim not to have seen were in evidence; their NOT looking at the evidence is not evidence of a coverup, it's evidence of a lazy juror and a writer who didn't do her job correctly. The only two people who did something wrong were the juror and Davis, everyone else seems to have looked at the evidence.

I bought my copy at a used book store; Routier's made nada from me.
Would that include the juror who said she convicted her because Darlie didn't prove herself innocent?
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Old 9th August 2016, 05:11 PM   #158
Desert Fox
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Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
Would that include the juror who said she convicted her because Darlie didn't prove herself innocent?
With Russ Faria, one of the jurors states that he was not sure if Russ was guilty
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Old 9th August 2016, 05:48 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
With Russ Faria, one of the jurors states that he was not sure if Russ was guilty
If I recall, one juror, when asked why he voted guilty, responded to the effect of "Well he gets an appeal."
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:30 PM   #160
Samson
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Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
If I recall, one juror, when asked why he voted guilty, responded to the effect of "Well he gets an appeal."
Unfortunately murder appeals are always denied. Does anyone know a case where it was simply guilty first trial, innocent at appeal? I can only think of Amanda Knox, but scores of innocent people where the first appeal is simply denied. That is when the decades start ticking.
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